Why Do Wing Chun Stylist Cite Bruce Lee?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;934052]Did he stop teaching the vertical punch? No.
Did he stop teaching the centerline? No.
Did he stop teaching low line “stomp” kicks? No.
Did he stop teaching short range power? No.
Did he stop the wooden dummy? No.
Did he stop teaching finger strikes? No.

I agree that BL should not be held up as anything “symbolic” for WC, but to say that he disregarded all that was WC is incorrect.
Was he a “WC guy” ?
No.[/QUOTE]
Center line-basic to many martial ats
Vertical punch- he stopped teaching the WC version he used a boxing version of it as explained in Teri Toms book that I suggest you read.
http://www.amazon.com/Straight-Lead-Core-Bruce-Lees/dp/0804836302/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1242145696&sr=8-2

Stomp kick- I would hardly call someone a WC man for doing a stomp kick.
Short range power - no but let’s face it. The one inch punch is more of a demonstration gimmick than anything.
Wooden dummy - yes because he stopped teaching trapping per ted wong
Finger strikes - no, however, I would hardly call someone a WC man because he uses and eye jab.

If demonstration gimmicks, stomps, and an eye jab are WC then, I guess Bruce practiced WC.

42

Bruce Lee never completely departed from Wing Chun. In 1967, well into his JKD phase, his daytimers confirm that he was still training Wing Chun movements. Also there was always disparity between what Lee taught and what he trained. Most important for Wing Chun is the respect that Lee continued to have for people like Wong Shun Leung, even when he is said to have broken away from the art of Wing Chun.

In addition, isn’t it a logical progression to free oneself from dogma. Yip Man is said to have forgotten the Dummy form in order to liberate himself from rigidity. Instead he used the dummy for free movement.

Is it even possible to depart completely from ones base art?

Suki

43

[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;934069]Center line-basic to many martial ats
Vertical punch- he stopped teaching the WC version he used a boxing version of it as explained in Teri Toms book that I suggest you read.
http://www.amazon.com/Straight-Lead-Core-Bruce-Lees/dp/0804836302/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1242145696&sr=8-2

Stomp kick- I would hardly call someone a WC man for doing a stomp kick.
Short range power - no but let’s face it. The one inch punch is more of a demonstration gimmick than anything.
Wooden dummy - yes because he stopped teaching trapping per ted wong
Finger strikes - no, however, I would hardly call someone a WC man because he uses and eye jab.

If demonstration gimmicks, stomps, and an eye jab are WC then, I guess Bruce practiced WC.[/QUOTE]

Fact is, he didn’t get that stuff from anywhere else, he got it from WC.
Unless you know different, I mean, his WC lineage and training is verifiable, but what else is?

44

How could Bruce teach WCK if his education in it was not complete?

But on the other hand, his concept of Jeet Kuen is one of the concepts of WCK, and embodies the core essence of WCK.

How many of you have the timing and cross training and conditioning of Bruce Lee? His example was a good one. To be able to pull off Jeet Kuen, you have to have excellent timing… a functional timing.

And I do not think that anyone with just a knowledge of forms of WCK and Chi Sao necessarily know more than Bruce did, or are able to penetrate the understandings of what TCMA have. Heck, we have lots of people these days who know all the forms of WCK and aren’t worth a dime.

Put it into perspective, he was very good for his time.

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[QUOTE=chusauli;934076]How could Bruce teach WCK if his education in it was not complete?

But on the other hand, his concept of Jeet Kuen is one of the concepts of WCK, and embodies the core essence of WCK.

How many of you have the timing and cross training and conditioning of Bruce Lee? His example was a good one. To be able to pull off Jeet Kuen, you have to have excellent timing… a functional timing.

And I do not think that anyone with just a knowledge of forms of WCK and Chi Sao necessarily know more than Bruce did, or are able to penetrate the understandings of what TCMA have. Heck, we have lots of people these days who know all the forms of WCK and aren’t worth a dime.

Put it into perspective, he was very good for his time.[/QUOTE]

Well said, he certainly was good enough for the likes of Norris and Lewis and others to train with him.

46

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;934075]Fact is, he didn’t get that stuff from anywhere else, he got it from WC.
Unless you know different, I mean, his WC lineage and training is verifiable, but what else is?[/QUOTE]

No WC footwork + No Trapping = No Wing Chun

End of story.

47

[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;934079]No WC footwork + No Trapping = No Wing Chun

End of story.[/QUOTE]

Good luck with that, LOL !

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[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;934079]No WC footwork + No Trapping = No Wing Chun

End of story.[/QUOTE]

What WC foot work?

What Trapping?

What is the uniqueness of WCK which Bruce Lee doesnt know?

49

Jun Fan did not complete or learn all three forms.

if one goes by these non sense forms standard, 99.99% of WCner today is screwed.

Because there is only one form before they break it into three in the red boat when the name of the art changes into Wing Chun kuen from Siu Lien Tau.

50

[QUOTE=WarriorWC;934053]HumbleWCGuy,

Bruce is not a Wing Chun Hero! If the truth be known he made his own stuff up using what knowledge he had of Wing Chun and using that as the basis of his own style.

Bruce lee was charismatic, has good movement and fit. He appeared in a few films and then became famous. That is it as far as I am aware. He comapred nothing to the ‘real Life’ heroes and masters who are not well known. People like Lee Shing, Wong Shung Lung, Yip man ut more importantly our own Sifus!

Cheers:cool:[/QUOTE]

I am glad that we agree. I was hoping that I was dead wrong with my original post, but it seems that many put Bruce on a pedistal.

51

[QUOTE=chusauli;934076]How could Bruce teach WCK if his education in it was not complete?

But on the other hand, his concept of Jeet Kuen is one of the concepts of WCK, and embodies the core essence of WCK.

How many of you have the timing and cross training and conditioning of Bruce Lee? His example was a good one. To be able to pull off Jeet Kuen, you have to have excellent timing… a functional timing.

And I do not think that anyone with just a knowledge of forms of WCK and Chi Sao necessarily know more than Bruce did, or are able to penetrate the understandings of what TCMA have. Heck, we have lots of people these days who know all the forms of WCK and aren’t worth a dime.

Put it into perspective, he was very good for his time.[/QUOTE]

Robert,

How is Hawkin’s view on Bruce’s Kung Fu if you could share?
That will give the first hand direct facts instead of guessing and speculating.

Best Regards

52

[QUOTE=Hendrik;934115]Robert,

How is Hawkin’s view on Bruce’s Kung Fu if you could share?
That will give the first hand direct facts instead of guessing and speculating.

Best Regards[/QUOTE]

I have written Hawkins’ viewpoint in the old articles I wrote on my old website. The are entitled the Bruce Lee series:

http://www.chusaulei.com/martial/articles/index.html

Amazing to see this was written already over 18 years ago, in 1991! I feel old! :frowning:

I will say Hawkins said JKD was not complete, but he found the Jeet Kuen concept very useful - but how many have the timing to do it? Also, it was not battle tested.. you can create an art, but it has to be battle tested to see if it is valid. Hawkins said JKD does not have the mechanics of WCK, it does not have the skill Yip Man executed in swallowing and spitting with the body. The limitations Bruce saw were his own limitations, not necessarily WCK limitations. You guys can read the rest…

Personally, I will say Bruce Lee did father a functional martial arts movement, and to train realistically. Even you can make 1 Pak Da into many variations by simply taking different angles, footwork and timing and power, so it is not necessary to have so many techniques - only a few will suffice. I think Bruce Lee was great because he was a great example for Chinese in Hollywood and martial arts, and because he opened up interest in the Asian martial arts in general. BTW, Jun Fan and JKD are 2 different things, so its best not to confuse the two.

53

[QUOTE=chusauli;934129]I have written Hawkins’ viewpoint in the old articles I wrote on my old website. The are entitled the Bruce Lee series:

http://www.chusaulei.com/martial/articles/index.html

Amazing to see this was written already over 18 years ago, in 1991! I feel old! :frowning:

I will say Hawkins said JKD was not complete, but he found the Jeet Kuen concept very useful - but how many have the timing to do it? Also, it was not battle tested.. you can create an art, but it has to be battle tested to see if it is valid. Hawkins said JKD does not have the mechanics of WCK, it does not have the skill Yip Man executed in swallowing and spitting with the body. The limitations Bruce saw were his own limitations, not necessarily WCK limitations. You guys can read the rest…

Personally, I will say Bruce Lee did father a functional martial arts movement, and to train realistically. Even you can make 1 Pak Da into many variations by simply taking different angles, footwork and timing and power, so it is not necessary to have so many techniques - only a few will suffice. I think Bruce Lee was great because he was a great example for Chinese in Hollywood and martial arts, and because he opened up interest in the Asian martial arts in general. BTW, Jun Fan and JKD are 2 different things, so its best not to confuse the two.[/QUOTE]

This is what level we as WC stylist should view Bruce. This is a great post. Thanks.

54

Hi Robert,

Did Hawkins ever meet Bruce after he departed Hong Kong?

Did Hawkins actually get to see, first hand, Bruce’s development post-Wing Chun or is Hawkins impression of JKD based on the letters they exchanged?

Suki

55

Thanks Chu Laoshi,

Great article! I enjoyed the read.

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Besides making good kung fu movies. What made Bruce Lee any more notable than any other Martial Artists?

How was he more exceptional than Yip Man? Wong Shun Leung? or any other none Chinese Movie stars who practice a real fighting art?

My Question is if Jun Fan never made it to hollywood then would really know who he was in the west? Would we even care?

57

Not battle tested? Who can do the timing?

Here’s a summary of a personal conversation I had with Dan Inosanto back in 1979:

Bruce went behind closed doors and sparred people like Chuck Norris, Joe Lewis, Mike Stone, Louis Delgado, Wally Jay, etc.

And they all respected him afterwards for his skill.

Now, here’s something Inosanto said about the results of the behind-the-scenes sparring that I never forgot because it was so poignant:

He said that BL beat Chuck Norris so bad that it was “embarassing to watch”…(that phrase will never leave my memory)…he said that BL punched and kicked Chuck Norris “from one end of the room to the other”…(another phrase I shall never forget).

…

As for the “Who can do the timing” thing:

W shouldn’t confuse two separate issues…

  1. Bruce’s extraordinary speed

  2. The “timing” that BL talked about/taught to his students, ie.- much of which can be found in the “Tao of JKD” and in other books that were published, such as “Bruce Lee’s fighting method” (volumes 1-5), and Inosanto’s first book, “JKD, the Art and Philosophy of Bruce Lee”.

The fact that no one was as fast as Bruce (I saw Joe Lewis on the Johnny Carson show one night back in the 1970’s say that BL was the fasted human being he ever saw)…

this fact takes nothing away from the efficacy of what he was teaching in terms of broken rhythm, hitting on the half beat, how to riposte, how to set up (through timing and distancing) attacks with the fists by first using low line kicks, how to set up fight-ending kicks by using punches first, how to stop kick when he attacks through a developed sense of distance and rhythm, what angles were best used to close on an opponent, how to set up the feet (ie.- raised and lowered heels) to maximize speed and penetration, etc.

Sometimes I’m really amazed at all the revisionist history, or the lack of historical understanding in the first place - and then such “misunderstanding” is later passed off as “insight”. :rolleyes:

58

Robert,

Thanks and appreciate !

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[QUOTE=Wu Wei Wu;934174]Hi Robert,

Did Hawkins ever meet Bruce after he departed Hong Kong?

Did Hawkins actually get to see, first hand, Bruce’s development post-Wing Chun or is Hawkins impression of JKD based on the letters they exchanged?

Suki[/QUOTE]

Suki,

Hawkins was old buddies with Bruce in Jr High School in HK. He saw Bruce before and after JKD. He did not get many letters on JKD, he got first hand in person knowledge on JKD from Bruce, when he was in HK making movies.

Best regards,

60

[QUOTE=Tensei85;934181]Thanks Chu Laoshi,

Great article! I enjoyed the read.[/QUOTE]

My pleasure - already old history…18 years! Wow! Some of you were in diapers still! LOL!