[QUOTE=WarriorWC;934016]
Fact: Bruce Lee is the best known Martial Artist of this time and he was reveered by ALL practitioners of ALL styles of Martial Arts.
[/QUOTE]
Uh, no.
Best known maybe, revered by ALL, NFW!
ok then revered by Most!!
[QUOTE=WarriorWC;934016]Fact: Bruce Lee was a devoted Wing Chun Practioner
Fact: Wing Chun formed the nucleus of his art Jet Kuen Do[/QUOTE]
NO and and only sort of.
Bruce practiced Wing Chun until he decided that it sucked and he began to alter it until only the trapping was left. Then after sparring Kareem Abdul Jabaar, Bruce finally came to the conclusion that trapping and chi sao were wastes of time. Ted Wong, one of Bruce’s last students does no use trapping and essentially does strong side forward kickboxing that relies on a boxing straight lead for the reasons that I have mentioned above.
JKD as it is often practiced today includes trapping and a small amount of Chi Sao. Why? What not many of Bruce’s students are willing to admit is that they liked the trapping so they kept it going against what Bruce thought. In part, this is because not many of them were around to get Bruce’s final version.
[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;934032]NO and and only sort of.
Bruce practiced Wing Chun until he decided that it sucked and he began to alter it until only the trapping was left. Then after sparring Kareem Abdul Jabaar, Bruce finally came to the conclusion that trapping and chi sao were wastes of time. Ted Wong, one of Bruce’s last students does no use trapping and essentially does strong side forward kickboxing that relies on a boxing straight lead for the reasons that I have mentioned above.
JKD as it is often practiced today includes trapping and a small amount of Chi Sao. Why? What not many of Bruce’s students are willing to admit is that they liked the trapping so they kept it going against what Bruce thought. In part, this is because not many of them were around to get Bruce’s final version.[/QUOTE]
JKD is different things to different people and that is what it is suppose to be.
[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;934003]To say that Bruce Lee thought that wing chun was ineffective/junk is to display one’s total lack of investigation into what BL was doing.
He (and Dan Inosanto later on) made it clear that certain wing chun principles were the nucleus of what he was doing with his JKD, ie.- use of a centerline, preference for straight line punching and kicking, use of wing chun infighting techniques (ie.- what BL referred to as trapping) from very close range, low line kicking, etc..
IN ADDITION TO those things that were purely BL’s ideas, ie.- crosstraining in other arts like boxing, wrestling, escrima, longer range kicking, etc…various heavy contact (with protective gear) drilling and sparring methods that wing chun practitioners were not doing in those days, and so on.[/QUOTE]
You are dead wrong. In reality, the center line is just a basic martial arts principle. It is used in a number of martial arts styles. Per Ted Wong, one of Bruce’s final students, Bruce got away from trapping as he found it to be ineffective against good fighters. BL students still trap today because many of them did not receive the final form of JKD or they just liked it and kept doing it. Bruce despised the WC stances, footwork, punching, and kicking. He kept the trapping until he decided that it was junk.
[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;934037]You are dead wrong. In reality, the center line is just a basic martial arts principle. It is used in a number of martial arts styles. Per Ted Wong, one of Bruce’s final students, Bruce got away from trapping as he found it to be ineffective against good fighters. BL students still trap today because many of them did not receive the final form of JKD or they just liked it and kept doing it. Bruce despised the WC stances, footwork, punching, and kicking. He kept the trapping until he decided that it was junk.[/QUOTE]
Until he decided that it was “junk” for HIM.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;934034]JKD is different things to different people and that is what it is suppose to be.[/QUOTE]
If that is the case then, you still are left with the fact that you can’t cite Bruce for good or ill because his expression of JKD was too personal to reflect for good or ill on Wing Chun.
WCGuy,
The principals philosophy are Wing Chun. As are the moves (Pak Sao, Lap Sao etc) are all utilised in similar fashion to Wing Chun. Just because something has no use to HIM does not mean it has no use at all.
Trapping has uses, Chi Sao has uses. The art of teaching such arts is to give the student as many tools at his disposal, it is down to the student what he uses. What Bruce thought that everyone was the same as him!!!
One man’s beef is another man’s steak!
[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;934039]If that is the case then, you still are left with the fact that you can’t cite Bruce for good or ill because his expression of JKD was too personal to reflect for good or ill on Wing Chun.[/QUOTE]
Correct, quite correct.
At best, one can cite BL about the importance of being in fighting shape and cross training, and his views on how to “tailor” MA to suit you.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;934038]Until he decided that it was “junk” for HIM.[/QUOTE]
Well lets see. He stopped teaching the stances, footwork, and finally the trapping and Chi Sao. When you stop teaching something you have decided that it is junk for everybody and not just yourself.
[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;934043]Well lets see. He stopped teaching the stances, footwork, and finally the trapping and Chi Sao. When you stop teaching something you have decided that it is junk for everybody and not just yourself.[/QUOTE]
Inosanto still teaches trapping…
Just to remind you guys or to let you know, I love Wing Chun. I am just saying that we should not hold Bruce up as our hero because I don’t think that he liked us. I am not anti-WC. I am just anti-Bruce-Lee as an authority on our art.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;934047]Inosanto still teaches trapping…[/QUOTE]
Because he disagreed with Bruce’s assessment. Inasanto, also teaches Muay Thai which Bruce did not like, and Dan also teaches a ton of Philippino stuff.
[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;934049]Because he disagreed with Bruce’s assessment. Inasanto, also teaches Muay Thai which Bruce did not like, and Dan also teaches a ton of Philippino stuff. Bruce did not think much of Muay Thai.[/QUOTE]
Making my point…
BL always said that JKD is something different for everyone, that his JKD would not be “joe’s” or “freds” or “bills”.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;934050]Making my point…
BL always said that JKD is something different for everyone, that his JKD would not be “joe’s” or “freds” or “bills”.[/QUOTE]
This does not get around the fact that he stopped teaching the fundamentals of WC. As I said, when you stop teaching it, you have decided that it is no good for anyone.
For example, I have a unique body type so I teach a number of things that I don’t do personally. However, I recognize the benefits of a number of techniques that I no longer use in combat, and teach them to my students.
[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;934051]This does not get around the fact that he stopped teaching the fundamentals of WC. As I said, when you stop teaching it, you have decided that it is no good for anyone.
.[/QUOTE]
Did he stop teaching the vertical punch? No.
Did he stop teaching the centerline? No.
Did he stop teaching low line “stomp” kicks? No.
Did he stop teaching short range power? No.
Did he stop the wooden dummy? No.
Did he stop teaching finger strikes? No.
I agree that BL should not be held up as anything “symbolic” for WC, but to say that he disregarded all that was WC is incorrect.
Was he a “WC guy” ?
No.
HumbleWCGuy,
Bruce is not a Wing Chun Hero! If the truth be known he made his own stuff up using what knowledge he had of Wing Chun and using that as the basis of his own style.
Bruce lee was charismatic, has good movement and fit. He appeared in a few films and then became famous. That is it as far as I am aware. He comapred nothing to the ‘real Life’ heroes and masters who are not well known. People like Lee Shing, Wong Shung Lung, Yip man ut more importantly our own Sifus!
Cheers:cool:
There are no heroes in the MA, certainly not in the correct sense of the word.
There are people whos skills and dedication we can admire, but heroes, idols and such are too strong of words to use, typically.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;934054]There are no heroes in the MA, certainly not in the correct sense of the word.
There are people whos skills and dedication we can admire, but heroes, idols and such are too strong of words to use, typically.[/QUOTE]
Exactly,
From Mas Oyama to Old Sensei to Bruce Lee to lots of Chinese Martial artis… it is their skills and dedication we admire.
as for
the fundamentals of WC.
Let’s be honest, by the1850 standard, if one cant even evoke the basic Chuk Ken or Keng Ken, there is no fundamental. and sorry to say this fundamental has been lost since the past 40 years. So? who can claim they know the fundamentals?
Doing vertical punch, tan sau, and the SICK YJKYM as the general public? those are just some tool, not WCK at all.
and see fro yourself how is a typical WCK do
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QH13kYFzfFk
if some tell me the can do better then the WCner in the clip. then please share with us what wrong the WCner in the clip does and what training needs makes the different?
It is time to examine what do one buying, brand name car or good design car. or both.
As Mas Oyama once said, if my memory serve, most of kung fu people cant move when it comes to real sparing or fight. Take others critics because there are some truth in it be it from Mas or Bruce or Gracie or Terence.
Nothing to defend but lots to learn.
[QUOTE=Hendrik;933962]what is the standard of a so called Complete WC training? Who set that standard?[/QUOTE]
Jun Fan did not complete or learn all three forms. He also only learn part of Wooden Man and didn’t learn any of weapon forms.
So any student of WC who has Sil Lim Tao, alot of Chi Sau and Bil Gee will have about as much WC training as Bruce. Provided he adds some techniques from other arts He will exceed in his understanding of Martial Arts. But a person with the entire system atleast the basics and first four forms will be an established WC fighter.
[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;933967]It has become painfully obvious that there are few that have a complete WC education. Bruce was no different. And his JKD was not all that great either. Bruce was a business man. He promoted himself along with the CMA, and the bottom line was his greatest interest. He used electronics to exercise his body, and he used camera special effects to enhance his seeming gung fu abilities. Aside from making funny noises, he was not all that great. And the one inch punch he demonstrated in the ring and on stage was nothing that could not be done by other good WC men. What you might remember seeing in the 3rd rate CMA movies was just good choriography sp? Same with Jacky Chan.
I think most people today tend to learn from books, and then become armchair masters of the art.[/QUOTE]
Could Jun Fan demostrate the Inch Punch in a actual fight?
Also look at his stance when he does the quasi inch punch?
As for footwork if you look at Augstine Fong’s footwork and then look at a video of Jeet Kune Do foot work its basically the same thing. Check out Bruce Lee’s Fighting method.
Bruce lees comments…Well Hendrik did you ever read what Bruce lee said about Chi and cultivation? I don’t think you would like it too much.
Was Bruce Lee a Wing Chun idol…
In my opinion No, But from the rumors he was a great Gung Fu fighter. Many non-martial artist and non-wing chun fighters love Bruce Lee for his Gung Fu. They never refer to him as Wing Chun. But simply Gung Fu Pioneer.
There are two stories to why Bruce Lee changed his teachings..
- As you guys stated it may be due to jealousy because he didn’t get the entire system from Yip Man. So He went out to teach his own version of Jeet Kune Do to discredit Wing Chun. However it is rumored that Bruce Lee letter learn Third Form and the Rest of the Wooden Man from Wong Shun Leung when he went back to Hong Kong.
2.The other story which is possibly true is that Jun Fan was ordered to not teach Wing Chun secrets to the gwalo. So Jun Fan changed many things in His Jun Fan art to JKD which would get rid of YGKYM and get rid of the forms ie. Sil Lim Tao. So Form practicing was replaced with extra partner drilling and sparring. He also pulled principles from Western Arts that related to Wing Chun to give people striking ablitily. Such as a boxers punches were to replace the chain punches, Upper cuts and hooks that wing chun has in Bil Gee and Chum Kiu. Also he kept the straight punch but no chain punch. Kwan Sao and Huen Sau and Kwun Sau are not practice. Pak Sau is similair to slap boxing so that can stay. Really does Bruce incorporate a Tan Sau or Fook Sau? Also a cover and parry replaced wu sau and man sau. Etc. Steps were classified as fencing steps but realistically it is still just WC steps. Jiujitsu was incorporated along with northern shaolin kicks to make JKD seem to deviate from WC a little. But in actual combat does a JKD really kick above the waist?
So if the case was true that Bruce was forbidden to teach WC to Gawlo by Yip Man. It makes perfect sense that he would altered his art alot to make money. I read some articles that actually say Bruce was not allowed to teach WC. I believe his first students actual learn SLT and Wing Chun from. An later everything got changed!