Towards the end of his life he was pretty sure that WC was ineffective. Citing Bruce Lee as an authority on certain topics also leaves you vulnerable to his criticisms.
Why not?
One needs to face what one needs to face. It is not because of some one’s critic that what is not true become true.
Cant be a Do Do bird. But examine oneself to see if the critics is true or not. if it is true accept it if it is not true smile and forget about it.
A pionner in WCK doesnt mean a GOD in WCK. everyone has thier limitation and Bias. Be it Bruce Lee or Ip Man or anyone else.
That is just reality.
Bruce Lee wasnt a WC master but i did do wonders for kung fu in general. He basically made all of kung fu more recognizable especially in the U.S. He was one of the first people to publically criticize himself and work to correct the holes in his game.
[QUOTE=Hendrik;933953]Why not?
One needs to face what one needs to face. It is not because of some one’s critic that what is not true become true. [/QUOTE]
Agreed, but it makes no logical sense to hold someone up as your hero who was so critical of what you do.
[QUOTE=Hendrik;933953]
Cant be a Do Do bird. But examine oneself to see if the critics is true or not. if it is true accept it if it is not true smile and forget about it.[/QUOTE]
yup
[QUOTE=Hendrik;933953]
A pionner in WCK doesnt mean a GOD in WCK. everyone has thier limitation and Bias. Be it Bruce Lee or Ip Man or anyone else.[/QUOTE]
Bruce was not a Pioneer in WCK. He was a martial arts pioneer who studied WCK and determined that it was mostly junk.
Humble,
I dont think bruce lee though WC was junk, but he didnt learn the entire art, ive heard he tried to buy Ip Man a loft in China in exchange for the completion of his training but Ip turned him down. Then he wrote Tao of JKD, which to me, was his way of making up for the fact he didnt complete WC training. He trained in arts in the US to prove that WC was “junk” when in fact, he had no right to pass judgement on an art that he didnt even know. IMO
Agreed, but it makes no logical sense to hold someone up as your hero who was so critical of what you do.
Since Hawkin is still alive, Check with Hawkin, if one’s WC kung fu is more advance then Bruce Lee. if not then, one got to listern to Bruce.
HOwever, if one’s WCK is more advance then Bruce then what Bruce said doesnt applied to one.
That simple.
See, it is not Bruce Lee but how advance is one’s WCK?
Bruce was not a Pioneer in WCK.
Bruce Lee shocked the world with WCK’s Inch punch right? That single act alone qualified him as a pioneer.
Again, Check with Hawkin, and see have you surpase Bruce if not, then he is still your senior and Pioneer.
He was a martial arts pioneer who studied WCK and determined that it was mostly junk.
Do you have to believe everything he says? I dont.
just take what positive offered he has offered and forget his negative. for the negative is his problem not yours.
[QUOTE=Katsu Jin Ken;933958]the fact he didnt complete WC training. [/QUOTE]
what is the standard of a so called Complete WC training? Who set that standard?
It has become painfully obvious that there are few that have a complete WC education. Bruce was no different. And his JKD was not all that great either. Bruce was a business man. He promoted himself along with the CMA, and the bottom line was his greatest interest. He used electronics to exercise his body, and he used camera special effects to enhance his seeming gung fu abilities. Aside from making funny noises, he was not all that great. And the one inch punch he demonstrated in the ring and on stage was nothing that could not be done by other good WC men. What you might remember seeing in the 3rd rate CMA movies was just good choriography sp? Same with Jacky Chan.
I think most people today tend to learn from books, and then become armchair masters of the art.
[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;933967]It has become painfully obvious that there are few that have a complete WC education. Bruce was no different. And his JKD was not all that great either. Bruce was a business man. He promoted himself along with the CMA, and the bottom line was his greatest interest. He used electronics to exercise his body, and he used camera special effects to enhance his seeming gung fu abilities. Aside from making funny noises, he was not all that great. And the one inch punch he demonstrated in the ring and on stage was nothing that could not be done by other good WC men. What you might remember seeing in the 3rd rate CMA movies was just good choriography sp? Same with Jacky Chan.
I think most people today tend to learn from books, and then become armchair masters of the art.[/QUOTE]
Lee,
You are right, He used electronics to exercise his body, and he used camera special effects to enhance his seeming gung fu abilities.
But how many in this forum even try to understand the kuen kuit properly?
People call it mumbo jumbo. People have no patient to think. People dont even open enough to Qi training but call it mysticsism…etc.
How can we blame Bruce Lee for those electronics fast food type of training where ourself not willing to listern to the ancestors teaching?
As my sifu, the Zen patriach Late Ven Hsuan Hua said, " Cultivation is not get instant high as smoking opium. one must be able to eat bitter and practice perserverance."
How many of WCner today think they can learn things from website, go to a week end seminal…?
I have seen those who spend 4 years 1 to 2 hours every day morning and night for just entering the door of basic stance and breathing training. How many will do that? until then what Kung fu? what WCK?
One can not even heal or expel a common cold. is that kung fu? forget about it.
[QUOTE=Hendrik;933962]what is the standard of a so called Complete WC training? Who set that standard?[/QUOTE]
in his school at least, under yip man, he was not at the level of the senior students
[QUOTE=Pacman;933970]in his school at least, under yip man, he was not at the level of the senior students[/QUOTE]
Have anyone check with Hawkin?
My View is only GM Ip Man can make the judgement of Bruce. None of us here is at that judgement level.
[QUOTE=Hendrik;933961]
Do you have to believe everything he says? I dont.
just take what positive offered he has offered and forget his negative. for the negative is his problem not yours.[/QUOTE]
This is illogical and why I think that it is unacceptable.
[QUOTE=Hendrik;933972]Have anyone check with Hawkin?
My View is only GM Ip Man can make the judgement of Bruce. None of us here is at that judgement level.[/QUOTE]
Speak for yourself. IMHO Bruce was wrong about quite a bit. He had some great ideas, but he did not live in the information age. He was operating off of a lot of books were now you can just go to any school you want or pick up a DVD. Say what you want about a DVD but they are better than the books that Bruce used.
Even the better JKD guys (Matt Thornton etc.) have learned to let Bruce rest.
ETD still holds up pretty well as a watchable flick.
Bruce was a famous guy who did some WC. Even Yip Man seemed to take some pride in having him as a student. No wonder he has nuthuggers, as well as haters (see above).
The poor guy’s been dead for 30 years. Leave him be.
Yip Man must have thought well of Bruce at one time considering the pictures available of the 2 doing chi sao or the student teacher pose. But Bruce did leave early in the curriculum (chum kui level) and had to do a lot of work and experimentation on his own.
He was a true pioneer of kung fu in America and taught MANY American karate champions private lessons. He pushed forth many Wing Chun principle such as economy of motion, the center line etc… those principles may exist in other styles but at that time they were not being taught or emphasized in most schools. He also emphasized realistic sparring… something that took until the current mma craze to become a reality.
Why do Wing Chun people quote or associate with Bruce? Obviously his name is still famous and he did many great things for MA in general, and in JKD there is still a huge undeniable influence of Wing Chun. Did he critisize Wing Chun? Yes along with every other system in existance including JKD, the point being we all need to be self critical and evolve to improve.
To say that Bruce Lee thought that wing chun was ineffective/junk is to display one’s total lack of investigation into what BL was doing.
He (and Dan Inosanto later on) made it clear that certain wing chun principles were the nucleus of what he was doing with his JKD, ie.- use of a centerline, preference for straight line punching and kicking, use of wing chun infighting techniques (ie.- what BL referred to as trapping) from very close range, low line kicking, etc..
IN ADDITION TO those things that were purely BL’s ideas, ie.- crosstraining in other arts like boxing, wrestling, escrima, longer range kicking, etc…various heavy contact (with protective gear) drilling and sparring methods that wing chun practitioners were not doing in those days, and so on.
True story,
One time when his students where out on the lake and Bruce was by the shore line, he started to do the SLT, as he did it, the sky clouded over and a storm started, his students where fearful but, as the looked, they saw someone walking on water, they realized it was Bruce !
“Come to me,” he said to Inosanto, and Dan walked on water, but as he got closer, fear consumed him and he began to sink !
Bruce helped him on to the boat and chain punched the Storm into submission.
true story !!
^^^^
!.. That story is true! I also heard about the time Bruce was teaching a seminar where no lunch was provided. The attendees started to get hungry and restless. Bruce’s students became worried about the crowd. Bruce stepped on the stage and began to do SLT saying to the crowd not to worry, would not the spirit of IP MAN look over them?
Just then a Mr Softie ice cream truck arrived and everyone had ice cream for lunch.
Bruce Lee did not say Wing Chun is junk, what he said (briefly) is to apply knowledge and not just knowing.
In fact Bruce Lee trained mostly under Wong Shun Leong, “King of Talking Hands”, his Si Heng, under Yip Man.
"Jesse Glover (his[Bruce Lee’s] first American student) stated, “Wong was four years senior (in training) to Bruce in Yip Man’s clan and Bruce studied privately for a year and a half under both him and Yip Man.” Glover also wrote that Wong was “…the man most responsible for the development of Bruce Lee”
Taken from this article.
Fact: Bruce Lee was a devoted Wing Chun Practioner
Fact: Wing Chun formed the nucleus of his art Jet Kuen Do
If he thought Wing Chun was of no use, then the same would be the case for his own Art, Jeet Kuen Do…
Fact: Bruce Lee is the best known Martial Artist of this time and he was reveered by ALL practitioners of ALL styles of Martial Arts.