Why Catch Wrestling Is Inferior for WC supplementation

I had so much fun stirring things up with my Wing Chun analysis that I thought I would do another comparing and contrasting Catch wrestling with Brazilian Jiu Jitsu as a supplement to Wing Chun training.

[u]Background: [/u]
Fights are unpredictable and the Wing Chun fighter would be wise to supplement his stand up training with a comprehensive ground system.

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is an art that specializes in groundfighting/groundgrappling. It was originally developed from Japanese judo/jujutsu. Catch wrestling also specializes in groundgrappling and has its roots in English/European catch-as-catch-can grappling traditions. Both systems have a variety of submissions (or hooks) designed to disable an opponent. The two disciplines have several theoretical and practical differences which are contrasted below:

[u]Fighting from an Inferior Position: [/u]
No matter how good your takedowns are, if you meet a better takedown artist or someone who is significantly larger than you are, you will probably end up on the bottom if the fight goes to the ground. Being on the bottom is a very disadvantageous position in which to find oneself. A fighter who can fight effectively from the bottom position significantly increases his chances of surviving or winning if he ends up in this inferior position on the ground.

BJJ has taken the basic bottom ground defensive position of Judo (the guard) and refined it to the point that a good BJJ fighter has as good or better chance of winning the fight as the person who is in the top position. There are literally hundreds of joint breaks, chokes, and sweeps in a variety of variations that have been developed in BJJ for use when on the bottom. The guard has become such a strong offensive weapon that some BJJ fighters even prefer to be in this position.

Catch wrestling, on the other hand, has not developed much of a repertoire of bottom fighting (some Catch wrestlers even speak disdainfully of the guard by calling it the “whore” position) and most Catch wrestlers prefer to attempt to regain the top position. However, this is easier said than done when one comes across a ground grappler who is talented (and/or bigger) at maintaining the top controlling position. Unfortunately, for the Catch practitioner in this situation, he doesn’t have much of an offensive arsenal when on the bottom.

[u]Mixing Strikes, Breaks, and Chokes: [/u]
Striking an opponent, breaking a joint, or choking him unconscious are the three main methods to incapacitate an opponent in an unarmed combative encounter. An art that successfully combines these three will have an advantage over an art that does not.

Most people understand that the BJJ system is made up of a large number of joint breaks and chokes. Many people are not as familiar with the ground striking in this art. BJJ is comprised of gi training and Vale Tudo (anything goes) training. The gi training is pure grappling and is made up of positioning, sweeps, chokes, and joint locks. BJJ Vale Tudo training is composed of striking, in addition to many of the submissions found in the gi training. Three of the four main positions that are given top priority in BJJ (the knee ride, the mount, and the back mount) are mainly striking positions.

By contrast, Catch wrestling is strictly a grappling art. Catch has many submissions, but does not include striking into the system. Without strikes and the understanding of the positions necessary to create powerful strikes, the Catch wrestler has a distinct disadvantage compared to the BJJ practitioner.

[u]Position Before Submission, Submission From Any Position: [/u]
An accomplished grappler understands the positions that allow for both maximum control and maximum opportunity to inflict damage to an opponent. Although he strives for a superior position, a competent grappler will have the knowledge and ability to finish an opponent if a joint break or choke presents itself from a less than ideal position.

BJJ strives to find a position that will provide the greatest control and/or allow for maximum damage to the opponent. The four positions that allow for these criteria are known as the side control position, the mount, the knee ride (or knee on stomach/knee mount), and the back mount. At the same time, a competent BJJ practitioner will know when to go for finishes from less than ideal positions such as the 1/2 guard, the guard, when mounted, or even when transitioning from one position to the next if the opportunity presents itself. BJJ has submissions from every position on the ground.

Catch wrestling has a different philosophy and places very little emphasis on positioning. Because of this, Catch practitioners will often attempt submissions when they have opportunities to first establish a position that will make these submissions less risky to apply. Catch wrestlers are also unsophisticated about the bottom guard position and, because of this, have relatively few offensive weapons from the bottom position.

[u]Use of Clothing: [/u]
Most real-life encounters involve both combatants fully clothed wearing shirts, sweatshirts, and or jackets. Being able to control an opponent and apply chokeholds using the opponent’s or one’s own clothing can add greatly to a person’s fighting proficiency on the street.

Due to its training with the gi, BJJ has a large range of techniques that can be used to control and disable an opponent using the opponent’s shirt, sweatshirt, or jacket. There are a wide variety of chokes available to the BJJ practitioner using not only the opponent’s clothing, but his own as well.

Catch wrestling, on the other hand, mostly ignores the importance of using clothing in fighting applications. Because of this Catch has no control or choke techniques using an opponent’s clothing.

[u]Conclusion: [/u]
My conclusion is that Catch wrestling is an inferior choice for grappling supplementation to Wing Chun. Wing Chun practitioners who wish to supplement their training with groundfighting would be much better served by Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

2.85

Knifefighter:

Your ideas about what Catch Wrestling’s all about…are so clueless that I won’t even respond to you. But I will say this much - Do that chip on your shoulder a big favor and walk into a Tony Cecchine Catch Wrestling seminar with it.

Because that chip is just begging to come flying off.

UWC,
Instead of ragging on me personally, why don’t you write a reply that supports your position?

Nevermine… that would require well-thought out reasoning.

FINAL EXPLANATION

Now I already know IN ADVANCE that you will attempt to make believe that I didn’t support my position with the explanation I’m about to give…

Because I’m sure that you have read what I’m about to write BEFORE…ON OTHER THREADS that I participated on…and yet you still try to act like you don’t get it…

But nonetheless I will take the bait and indulge you on just one point - since it is the most crucial point of all:

In Catch…It’s about CONTROL…and submission…and control CAN BE HAD from so many different “positions”…that Catch doesn’t emphasize the term position the way you do…

Of course Catch talks about and trains a number of “positions”.
But since CONTROL is the KEY factor…

AND SINCE ANY NUMBER OF A MULTITUDE OF “POSITIONS” MIGHT ACTUALLY RENDER THE CONTROL NECESSARY FOR A SUBMISSION TO BE APPLIED…

Catch therefore talks about CONTROL AND SUBMISSION…rather than position and submission. Once you start to talk about having to gain a specific position(s) before going for a submission - you by definition LIMIT yourself to a relatively small amout of “positions” and “possibilities” of ending the fight as quickly as possible…

Not to mention the fact that iron-clad rules about certain positions might actually turn out to be FALSE…

ie. - Sakuraba submitted Renzo Gracie while being in what BJJ considers an “inferior” position. Go figure !

And with that…I say finito to my participation on this thread.

See Victor… you did it! You rebutted one of my points with rational argument without telling me how clueless I am… and without even using too many personal put-downs. Nice job. See this debating stuff isn’t so hard afterall.

Now try to do the rest with my other points. Maybe you can even come up with some additional ones of your own that could support your argument for the superiority of catch.

Catch vs. BJJ on a Wing CHun forum? Oy Vey! WHat is this world coming to? lol.

Anyways, i am pretty aware of the differences between both…heh.

i’m in the fortunate position of suplimenting my wingchun with freestyle wrestling, seeing as thats ALL i did in primary and highschool, not in a team, but all my friends were wrestling enthusiasts… ahh the joys of natural wrestling ability, you dont need to think about anything and things usually work your way very easily

What is this “groundfighting”?:confused:

i’m sensing “only child syndrome”!

Yes. I defeated my siblings at standup! Seriously though, some arts just don’t need a ground game. They are just that good. However, it might not be a bad idea to learn some of these moves until your skill improves and you may then discard the child-like training wheels.

Super serious though:
Why don’t people insist on groundfighting arts working on their substandard standup? Seems like it should go both ways. Not unlike men in prison.

Actually, hows about you do what you like, get good, and quit worrying about real or imagined holes in your training?

Spread it too thin, and there ain’t enough butter for the bisquit!

no,no,cowboy,i meant the thread starter!

Oh. I take it all back! Long live BJJ!

Actually I do think it is worth checking out
all ranges, but I don’t think that any are intrinsically superior.
Of course, I am a twit though.:slight_smile:

Originally posted by CHEUNG-WINGCHUN
i’m in the fortunate position of suplimenting my wingchun with freestyle wrestling, seeing as thats ALL i did in primary and highschool, not in a team, but all my friends were wrestling enthusiasts… ahh the joys of natural wrestling ability, you dont need to think about anything and things usually work your way very easily

LOL
I’m sure you’re kidding, 'cause that attitude is just asking for trouble. LOL

Originally posted by kungfu cowboy
Super serious though:
Why don’t people insist on groundfighting arts working on their substandard standup? Seems like it should go both ways. Not unlike men in prison.

They do. It’s not uncommon for grapplers to cross train in muay thai or boxing.

[b]Actually, hows about you do what you like, get good, and quit worrying about real or imagined holes in your training?

Spread it too thin, and there ain’t enough butter for the bisquit! [/B]

Isn’t that the pot calling the kettle black? forms, hundreds of techniques, weapons, chi gung, chi sao, trapping, chin na, iron body… Who is spreading themselves too thin here?

Well, they should have to xtrain in wing chun to balance the argument!

So we should get rid of all martial arts except for:

BJJ
Muay Thai
Boxing

as all the others are useless or substandard.

This seems to be the ideal.

Knifefighter:

Since so many people I like and have come to respect enjoy much of your anti-wing chun remarks I decided to go back and reread that thread and this one about Catch…

And while I still have some doubts about exactly where you’re coming from (attitude wise)…nonetheless you put alot of thought into this thread…so I’ll respond further about Catch and BJJ.

About Karl Gotch and his distain for the guard position: You should know that when he first went to Japan he was awarded a black belt in judo after spending exactly one day in the class -because they were so much in awe of what he could do against them with Catch…

I mentioned on the CONNECTING WING CHUN w/GRAPPLING thread that there were a number of submissions that could be used almost immediately against the guard…and I will state once again that I won’t divulge much about that on the internet.

But I will say this - it’s not that difficult at all (especially for a wing chun guy with the hand skills developed) to NOT allow him- self to pullled in and/or to extricate himself and sit back up WITH ARMS/HANDS close to his body…if he is pulled in and down..
(ie.- see Sakuraba vs. Royce Gracie when in Royce’s guard)…so that arms are not extended thereby providing the opportunity for the BJJ fighter to pull off an armbar or a triangle, or whatever)…

Now listen carefully…as this is just ONE fundamental way of quickly defeating the guard position…while “sitting” with the arms/hands back…REGARDLESS OF HIS ATTEMPTS TO ENGAGE/PULL/PUSH/GRAB your arms and head - or punch at you…

YOU NOW HAVE THE SUPERIOR POSITION…from the Catch point of view…because it is now (even if you just have one arm completely free for just a brief moment - although two is definitely possible)…it is now possible to downward elbow strike the nerves/arteries (pressure points) that exist on the insides of his legs (whether it’s a closed guard or not)…

these points are about three inches away from his knee caps and up and in towards his thighs…HE CANNOT STOP YOU FROM BANGING THE 5HIT out of them…

and the pain is NOT bearable…his legs will split open and you can pass the guard or start setting him up for any number of submissions that I won’t discuss…I’d rather show you someday.

Let’s forget all about martial arts and go back to simple brawlling.The biggest and strongest will win as it is meant in nature anyway.

old jong

no need to get rid of martial arts the biggest and the strongest still win most of the time today anyway ha ha ha

Yeah, well maybe at shuffleboard!