Originally posted by unkokusai
[B]
LOL
I’m sure you’re kidding, 'cause that attitude is just asking for trouble. LOL [/B]
you didn’t back anything you said up with anything at all?
i’ve been in over 500 wrestling fights on the street/school, which beats 2 - 3 jujitsu classes per week in a safe environment
think whatever you want, but when you wrestle everyday, (not fixed positions or safe manouvres) you learn some GOOD tricks
Originally posted by kungfu cowboy
[B]Well, they should have to xtrain in wing chun to balance the argument!
So we should get rid of all martial arts except for:
BJJ
Muay Thai
Boxing
as all the others are useless or substandard.
This seems to be the ideal. [/B]
Now you’re being silly. I didn’t say anything was useless. However, that combination is what has yielded the best results for most people, and it’s been adopted as the “MMA formula”. Many MMA guys have a traditional background - I’ve studied karate, longfist and kali, among other things, and there are guys at my gym that have studied aikido, tkd, karate, etc.
I am more comfortable with my thai boxing and my judo, so that’s my method - thai boxing and judo for standup, bjj for ground. You gotta find what works for you. If you want to see if WC and grappling will mesh well - test it. Enter some tournies and get the experience of testing yourself.
Now, what I will agree to is that some styles have substandard training methods. As with my CMA example, learning all of that stuff, how long will it take you to get good at it? The learning curve tends to be higher with most CMA other than shuai chiao.
Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
[B]Knifefighter:
Since so many people I like and have come to respect enjoy much of your anti-wing chun remarks I decided to go back and reread that thread and this one about Catch…
And while I still have some doubts about exactly where you’re coming from (attitude wise)…nonetheless you put alot of thought into this thread…so I’ll respond further about Catch and BJJ.
About Karl Gotch and his distain for the guard position: You should know that when he first went to Japan he was awarded a black belt in judo after spending exactly one day in the class -because they were so much in awe of what he could do against them with Catch…
I mentioned on the CONNECTING WING CHUN w/GRAPPLING thread that there were a number of submissions that could be used almost immediately against the guard…and I will state once again that I won’t divulge much about that on the internet.
But I will say this - it’s not that difficult at all (especially for a wing chun guy with the hand skills developed) to NOT allow him- self to pullled in and/or to extricate himself and sit back up WITH ARMS/HANDS close to his body…if he is pulled in and down..
(ie.- see Sakuraba vs. Royce Gracie when in Royce’s guard)…so that arms are not extended thereby providing the opportunity for the BJJ fighter to pull off an armbar or a triangle, or whatever)…
Now listen carefully…as this is just ONE fundamental way of quickly defeating the guard position…while “sitting” with the arms/hands back…REGARDLESS OF HIS ATTEMPTS TO ENGAGE/PULL/PUSH/GRAB your arms and head - or punch at you…
YOU NOW HAVE THE SUPERIOR POSITION…from the Catch point of view…because it is now (even if you just have one arm completely free for just a brief moment - although two is definitely possible)…it is now possible to downward elbow strike the nerves/arteries (pressure points) that exist on the insides of his legs (whether it’s a closed guard or not)…
these points are about three inches away from his knee caps and up and in towards his thighs…HE CANNOT STOP YOU FROM BANGING THE 5HIT out of them…
and the pain is NOT bearable…his legs will split open and you can pass the guard or start setting him up for any number of submissions that I won’t discuss…I’d rather show you someday. [/B]
How are you controlling his torso? What’s stopping him from sitting up and attacking?
Do what you love and the money will follow!
SevenStar:
I’m posting a leg/foot…which will play a key role in not only stopping him from sitting up and attacking…but there’s so much that can happen with it posted to the advantage of the Catch fighter.
P.S. - If he underhooks the ankle/leg - he only makes it easier for any one of numerous Catch submissions to result - contrary to what BJJ thinks it can do with that underhook.
But I WILL NOT GO ANY FURTHER about those possible submissions, and why the underhook provides a huge oppotunity for the Catch fighter - they literally have to be seen - not endlessly debated over the internet.
So I will return back to my first point - the BJJ fighter cannot stop the elbow strikes that will not only split his legs far apart - but the pain will provide ample opportunity for the Catch fighter to start entering into the submissions - OR-
the split in the BJJ fighter’s legs - coupled with the pain (and the time that the shocking pain provides the Catch fighter)…these two factors can often make for a total passing of the guard into the full mount.
Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
these points are about three inches away from his knee caps and up and in towards his thighs…HE CANNOT STOP YOU FROM BANGING THE 5HIT out of them…
Of course he can… do you think those of us who train Vale Tudo BJJ have not had that done to us many times in the past?
Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
mentioned on the CONNECTING WING CHUN w/GRAPPLING thread that there were a number of submissions that could be used almost immediately against the guard…and I will state once again that I won’t divulge much about that on the internet.
I’m always a little suspect about the “too deadly to be explained on the internet”, but OK. Of course there are many submissions that can be used against the open or closed guard… we use them in BJJ all the time when someone has a guard that is tough to pass. However, it’s not a simple matter to just pull them off, as most guard players have a large number of counters to them.
My problem with your statements on grappling is that I think you don’t have that much real hands on experience with experienced submission grapplers. My bet is that you have taken a few seminars, have some tapes, and roll with the students in your studio who claim to have much more grappling experience than they actually do (one clue to this was the “experienced” BJJ guy you were working with from the mounted postion and his response to your bridging attempt to unbalance him and make him post his arm) . And I don’t think this is a very viable background on which to make sweeping statements such as catch being “superior”.
As far Tony’s C, he doesn’t come across with an attitude of superiority (at least he didn’t with a bunch of BJJ guys in the room). However, I would immediately challenge any assertions of superiorty if he was claiming them.
If you really want to test some of your theories against decent BJJ guys (rather than just some of your students who claim to have BJJ training), stop by Maxercise (ask my friend, little Tony, to tell you some interesting stories about a “famous” catch guy training there), Renzo Gracie’s, Steve Kardanian’s, or Phil Magalarize’s BJJ schools, all of which are in your area. Spar with them and I think you will come away with a different attitude about the “superiority” of Catch.
Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
[B]If he underhooks the ankle/leg - he only makes it easier for any one of numerous Catch submissions to result - contrary to what BJJ thinks it can do with that underhook.
But I WILL NOT GO ANY FURTHER about those possible submissions, and why the underhook provides a huge oppotunity for the Catch fighter - they literally have to be seen - not endlessly debated over the internet. [/B]
I will then…
It makes it that much easier for the top guy to step over into a submission.
Well then thank you for agreeing with me that the guard can be beaten by Catch Wrestling moves.
Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Well then thank you for agreeing with me that the guard can be beaten by Catch Wrestling moves.
Of course it can. I do it all the time, myself. Doesn’t make it superior, though.
Knifefighter: Eh…no…excuse me…but I’m sorry - since I can tell just as many stories about experienced BJJ guys going to Tony Ceechine seminars and either getting smoked or just laying back and enjoying the ride without objecting when Tony starts explaining and showing how to deal with BJJ.
Which he always does in a gentlemanly way.
As for me - I’ve worked out with BJJ folks with 30 years experience - as well as novices - intermediates, etc. BJJ is an excellent grappling system - as I’ve said many times…but it’s not the best.
Get over it.
Oh yeah…and P.S…I’ll say it again…
You CAN’T stop the elbow strikes to the insides of the legs near the knees - not against good wing chun hands anyway - which you obviously don’t know about - regardless of your “6-7” wing chun years.
Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
[B]BJJ is an excellent grappling system - as I’ve said many times…but it’s not the best.
Get over it. [/B]
I never said it was the best, although I believe it has fewer weakenesses than catch.
The best grappling system is a combination of BJJ, Sambo/Judo, freestyle/folkstyle/Greco-Roman, and catch/submission that takes the best elements from each.
Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
[B]Oh yeah…and P.S…I’ll say it again…
You CAN’T stop the elbow strikes to the insides of the legs near the knees - not against good wing chun hands anyway - which you obviously don’t know about - regardless of your “6-7” wing chun years. [/B]
You might be surprised at what I can or can’t do.
ENOUGH
Now look…this really has to be my final post on this thread…
because you’re just so far gone that I’m really beginning to waste my time.
You just said that BJJ has far fewer weaknesses than Catch - to which your opening post on this thread attempting to explain Catch’s weaknesses only betray the fact that you know very little about Catch…at least not the Catch that Tony Cecchine teaches…and believe me when I tell you that he’s miles ahead of anyone teaching Catch openly in this country. So get your hands on his tapes and/or attend one of his seminars…AND THEN GO BACK AND READ YOUR FIRST POST ON THIS THREAD…
You’ll be embarassed, to say the least.
Secondly…the absurdity of saying that you know and use Catch moves to defeat the BJJ guard…while still maintaining your “Catch is inferior” position…this absurdity borders on the ridiculous.
I’ve really had enough of this thread.
Adios,
Originally posted by CHEUNG-WINGCHUN
[B]
i’ve been in over 500 wrestling fights on the street/school, which beats 2 - 3 jujitsu classes per week in a safe environment
think whatever you want, but when you wrestle everyday, (not fixed positions or safe manouvres) you learn some GOOD tricks [/B]
I’m sorry I didn’t see this nonsense earlier! Is this fool still about?
Spread it too thin, and there ain’t enough butter for the bisquit!
(kung fu cowboy)
Actually, there is not much sustained discussion of wing chun- even though it is labelled as a wing chun forum!! This is NOT knocking sevenstar or knifefighter. It is a critique of wing chun folks who get sidetrached away from serious in depth discussion of wing chun. Discussion- not pontification or lineage waving, sarcasm, oneupmanship.
I am struck by how little in depth discussion of wing chun and taichi there is
in the differnt kfo forums. Apparently top flight southern mantis people dont really discuss either except for occasional personal attacks. Serious folks in serious arts seem to have gone elsewhere-folks who are not in awe of the mma mix.
Apart from street applications- some wc folks have particpated in open full contact matches in parts of Asia.
What can I say- folks get sidetracked into superficial comparisons with other arts/sports highlighted by the visual media.
The so called mma formula -mixes of box/muay/jj is geared for
sporting events. That is not knocking in any way the courage of anyone entering those events or any contact event..
A tried and proven CMA like wing chun has developmental principles for varying contexts for self defense. With good guidance and sticking with the principles- the range of applications for individuals increase with learning, practice and experience.
Sevenstar-Wing Chun does not spread itself thin- all the items listed above
are interlinked in a very consistent systemic way. But it does take longer to learn than basic muay thai. BTW- trapping, iron body- are misleading labels. None of them including chin na, chi gung, weapons are logically separate arts- they are all developmental stages and growth along the wing chun path .
Knifefighter- nothing wrong with conditioning- a necessary but not sufficient thing for skill development. And conditioning should be activity specific. Obviously- Genki Sudo in UFC 47 hasa somewhat different training regimen than the rest.
WC can be adapted with proper coaching for sport competition- for those who are so inclined. For some good folks however - not enough money or principle is involved in going the sporting route.
Self defense and self development is higher than sport in their hierarchy of values.
WC does not need iron body- some do iron palm and wall bag work in addition to the jong. Different kinds of trapping and chinna occurs naturally with proper wing chun maturation.
They are not separate arts or isolated techniques.
Originally posted by yuanfen
[B]The so called mma formula -mixes of box/muay/jj is geared for sporting events.
WC can be adapted with proper coaching for sport competition- for those who are so inclined. For some good folks however - not enough money or principle is involved in going the sporting route.
Self defense and self development is higher than sport in their hierarchy of values. [/B]
WC is no more valid for self defense than is the MMA mix.
depends entirely on whos trying to defend themselves
I dont think so- but it depends on competencies of individuals as well.
Most of the critiques of wc that I have heard on the forum- flows from arrested wing chun development IMO.
I think that it is a waste of time to debate wing chun with non wing chun people who dont know much wing chun. Forum talk is just forum talk. I for one always hope for greater insights from
top flight wing chun people.
I have no problem with people defecting to mma- the more the merrier. WC was nevera mass art and attempts to make it one imo is a mistake.
Mistake #1 -
Thinking that wing chun has all the answers one could ever need against a real good takedown artist.
Mistake #2 -
Thinking that, once on the ground against a good ground- grappler, - wing chun has all the answers one could ever need to win the fight from there.
Conclusion:
Wing Chun is no more valid for self defense than the MMA mix.