thanks will do
[QUOTE=weakstudent;994853]well when i first came here its was for wing chun knowledge from people who been doing it longer than me. but recently its becoming my favorite soap opera. with all the back and forth. so now its getting harder for a newbe like me to get those golden nuggets from you guys.
just how i feel.[/QUOTE]
That’s what I was worried about when I posted before asking how people think new people to the forum would perceive things.
Its unfortunate…because when I got on the forum back at the turn of the century, I was looking for the same thing and actually got it. Today…not so much.
[QUOTE=weakstudent;994853]well when i first came here its was for wing chun knowledge from people who been doing it longer than me. but recently its becoming my favorite soap opera. with all the back and forth. so now its getting harder for a newbe like me to get those golden nuggets from you guys.
just how i feel.[/QUOTE]
This merits its own thread.
Most golden nuggets are to be had from actual training.
Once in a while you can get some from the Net.
Actually I think there is a lot of good info here from very different POVs..
I think so. I mean you of course will learn your martial art from hands on training and application. But you can understand your art and perhaps an even broader perspective of martial arts through discussion.
Like Sanjuro…if I’m not physically training, I’m usually talking about it, reading about it, watching it, studying it, etc. There is value in all forms of learning about the martial arts…including discussion on the net.
[QUOTE=YungChun;994882]Most golden nuggets are to be had from actual training.
Once in a while you can get some from the Net.
Actually I think there is a lot of good info here from very different POVs..[/QUOTE]
and that is the point of sharing and decent debate and discussion, for all of us to learn and better ourselves.
[QUOTE=Vankuen;994889]I think so. I mean you of course will learn your martial art from hands on training and application. But you can understand your art and perhaps an even broader perspective of martial arts through discussion.
Like Sanjuro…if I’m not physically training, I’m usually talking about it, reading about it, watching it, studying it, etc. Like Sanjuro…if I’m not physically training, I’m usually talking about it, reading about it, watching it, studying it, etc. There is value in all forms of learning about the martial arts…including discussion on the net.[/QUOTE]
We live in an awesome age my friend, where information that not to long ago was guarded and kept secret.
We share it openly for the betterment of us all.
To not take advantage of this or worse, make light of this amazing opportunity, doesn’t say much about ones intellect.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;994898]
To not take advantage of this or worse, make light of this amazing opportunity, doesn’t say much about ones intellect.
[/QUOTE]
In most cases, but I think this is more true for some things than others.. For the purposes of learning WCK I have my doubts that anything on the net is going to make or break that process.. I do agree there is some good info on the net.. But on this subject minimally so compared to lots of other subject matter where information is more clearly defined, useful and verifiable.
Joy, Van, weakstudent, sanjuro…are all correct.
We need to be giving out wing chun (as we, individually see it)…not just because it helps us collect our thoughts…but it’s very helpful to newbies seeking information from people with lots of wing chun experience.
But if thread-after-thread gets hijacked by a very accomplished martial artist in his own right but someone who nonetheless pretends to know waaaay more about wing chun than he actually does - and another guy who no one around here has ever seen anything about what he can do…but also pretends to know waaay more than he actually does (as is obvious by his posts - since he can’t hide everything about himself - and he clearly has no real grasp of what’s really possible with high level wing chun)…and who, like the other guy, goes out of his way to insult what other people do with the same old repetitive mantras over-and-over…
the whole forum, in effect, gets hijacked.
We need more moderation, Dave…I agree 100% with Joy/Vajramusti about this.
It’s the newbies who will suffer the most if the situation is not corrected. They will give up on this forum very quickly, and a lot of older guys (who used to post regularly) will also stay away. Why should they bother to be here?
[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;994951]
We need more moderation, Dave…I agree 100% with Joy/Vajramusti about this.
It’s the newbies who will suffer the most if the situation is not corrected. They will give up on this forum very quickly, and alot of older guys (who used to post regularly) will also stay away. Why should they bother to be here?[/QUOTE]
Agreed. I’d also say that the long term and more valuable folks (like Joy, Victor, Phil, Rene, Robert, and the like) should have more weight in the decision on this.
We’ve got people with 2000+ posts and nothing of value was contributed.
[QUOTE=YungChun;994901]In most cases, but I think this is more true for some things than others.. For the purposes of learning WCK I have my doubts that anything on the net is going to make or break that process.. I do agree there is some good info on the net.. But on this subject minimally so compared to lots of other subject matter where information is more clearly defined, useful and verifiable.[/QUOTE]
I would argue that the reason some subjects are more defined, useful and verifibale is because more people of experience have weighed in on them.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;994978]I would argue that the reason some subjects are more defined, useful and verifibale is because more people of experience have weighed in on them.[/QUOTE]
I would argue that it’s like zebras and ducks–meaning like totally different animals..
For example, one of my other hobbies is building model planes and helicopters, which I fly… Now building these things is very involved… it normally would take years and years for folks to learn how to do it and all the tricks involved.. But now with the internet you can ask folks questions and often times folks will present a step by step build of certain planes.. Wow it’s great and you can follow along step by step and build your plane like an expert..
On the other hand flying is another story.. It takes a long time for example to learn how to fly collective pitch helicopters… And there is very little anyone on the net can do no matter how well they can fly to help you to get better at flying…
Finally WCK is even worse.. There is no clear example of exactly what it is, folks will argue all day long… And if you can’t even tell what it is because of all the different opinions then how in God’s name is anyone going to help you get better at it over the net? The signal to noise ratio is absolutely insane..
Now if you can find someone or some people with real and correct WCK experience who also have lots of experience using it in real fighting venues and are willing and able to show us all step by step what they do well then be my guest. I’ll be all ears although I’m not sure how much it would help.
But until then I am happy to listen to all the noise and use my own experience to filter out the BS…
I grew up in NYC and have known the Chinatown Chinese Martial arts community since I was a kid. Many of the people here I have known for a long time. This forum is a good place to catch up with some of the folks.
Even though I’ve been in Los Angeles for 22 years now, I still look at myself connected with NYC Chinatown and the martial arts scene. I also come back twice annually to teach Master Tung’s Acupuncture and other forms of acupuncture not local to NYC.
As a Chinese Medicine practitioner, I see suffering everyday - cancer, tumors, Parkinson’s, diabetes, metabolic disorders, emotional problems, pain, orthopedic problems, grief, sadness…the list goes on and there is no limit to human suffering.
I see ugly, suffering, sadness all the time - so I come here and want to see some beauty - people working things out, developing friendship, having insights, understanding creation/development of the art, and other positive things. I may not see much of that here daily, but I don’t have any expectations. Sometimes I get a little surprised.
Life is short, we are today’s WCK. This is just a communication forum for us to start communications, and its a way we can grow.
[QUOTE=YungChun;994989]Finally WCK is even worse.. There is no clear example of exactly what it is, folks will argue all day long… And if you can’t even tell what it is because of all the different opinions then how in God’s name is anyone going to help you get better at it over the net? The signal to noise ratio is absolutely insane..
Now if you can find someone or some people with real and correct WCK experience who also have lots of experience using it in real fighting venues and are willing and able to show us all step by step what they do well then be my guest. I’ll be all ears although I’m not sure how much it would help.
But until then I am happy to listen to all the noise and use my own experience to filter out the BS…[/QUOTE]
As I see it, the problem with questions like “how do you do WCK” or “what WCK really is”, etc. and why they lead to all kinds of opinions boil down IME (1) to mistaking the curriculum for the subject matter and (2) not looking at things from a skill-based perspective (but rather from a concept-based perspective). When you stop doing that, lots of things fall into place.
People need to realize that the forms, drills, dummy, etc. is NOT WCK. That is the curriculum of WCK, it is what teaches you the various elements, movements, etc. But it is NOT WCK. So when you see the forms, the drills, the dummy, you are NOT SEEING WCK, you are only seeing people demonstrate the curriculum. The textbook is not the subject matter. The curriculum teaches you the moves of the game, but it is not the game itself. The curriculum doesn’t and can’t teach you to play the game.
WCK can only be seen in fighting – because WCK is PLAYING THE GAME (fighting with your WCK tools). This is the same for boxing ( boxing is using your boxing tools in fighting) or wrestling (wrestling is using your wrestling tools in fighting) or BJJ or any fighting art.
A critical aspect of that is that you can only learn to play the game and develop skill at playing the game by playing the game. You must do that yourself. You NEED to work it out for yourself by doing it. It isn’t a matter of being shown, let alone step-by-step, or being told how to do it. No one can show you and no one can tell you. Only YOU can work it out for yourself by playing the game. If a person won’t do that work, they will never get it. Never. All fighters do that WORK. Your skill level playing the game (fighting) will be determined by the amount of quality sparring (playing the game) that you do. Period. The quality of your sparring is determined by the intensity, the skill level of the opposition, etc.
I agree with you that most of what you hear is noise and nonsense – it is people who either never play the game or aren’t very good at playing the game telling others how they should play the game. It is the blind leading the blind. The so-called “concepts of WCK” are only the ideas pertaining to WCK of some person – their individual conceptualization (opr interpretation of some term). How good or useful are those? It depends. The level of anyone’s understanding (conceptualization) depends on their skill level. Can someone who doesn’t play the game or plays it poorly tell others how to do it well? If you adhere to the “concepts” of poor players, it will only make things more difficult for you. The answer to most questions of application is “go play the game and see.” In other words, the answer to questions of application (how should I play the game?) is application (go play the game and see).
That’s why Robert’s “let application (fighting) be your sifu” or Yip Man’s “Go out and test it for yoruself, I may be tricking you” is so critical. You let the fight tell you what is right or wrong FOR YOU. No one else can do that for you. You don’t do it because it is dogma or a concept (ususally the dogma or concept of a nonplayer), you do it because you tried it in quality sparring (the game) and it works for you.
Now, this is not to say that you can do anything you want and call it WCK (as some do). Rather, you take the WCK tools (not concepts) as you have learned them and practiced them and put them to work in fighting. If you are not using the WCK tools (the movements, the actions) in your fighting, then you are not doing WCK.
As far as looking to others: If you find someone who has done that work themselves, they can help you – not by showing you how to do it or telling you how to do it but by helping you to do the work yourself. They can play the game with you. If you can’t find someone who has done the work themselves, then it is up to you to do it without help.
[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;994951]Joy, Van, weakstudent, sanjuro…are all correct.
We need to be giving out wing chun (as we, individually see it)…not just because it helps us collect our thoughts…but it’s very helpful to newbies seeking information from people with lots of wing chun experience.
[/QUOTE]
I have no problem with anyone expressing their views of WCK.
But if thread-after-thread gets hijacked by a very accomplished martial artist in his own right but someone who nonetheless pretends to know waaaay more about wing chun than he actually does
Dale doesn’t pretend to know"way more" than he does-- he is very up-front about his WCK training. What you don’t like is that he has a great deal of fighting experience that he brings to discussions which conflict with various persons’ WCK theories --including yours. For anyone interested in actually doing (fighting with their) WCK, that perspective is very useful.
- and another guy who no one around here has ever seen anything about what he can do…but also pretends to know waaay more than he actually does (as is obvious by his posts - since he can’t hide everything about himself - and he clearly has no real grasp of what’s really possible with high level wing chun)…and who, like the other guy, goes out of his way to insult what other people do with the same old repetitive mantras over-and-over…
As I have said, Victor, there are some persons on this forum who have met me, and even trained a bit with me - Robert, Dave McKinnon, Rene, for example. I’ve been practicing WCK since 1982 (God, am I getting old!). I’ve seen most of the “big boys”, including Cheung. You talk about “what is really possible with high level wing chun” – well, why don’t you show the world? Is Cheung’s fight Boztepe a good example of that?
What you don’t like is that people like me and Dale KNOW that you are full of sh1t and we say so. You don’t like it that we call you on your claims (“what is really possible with high level wing chun”) and point out that your idols have clay feet.
the whole forum, in effect, gets hijacked.
What you really mean is that you can’t just come here and play WCK authority – that you don’t like having your claims questioned, being asked for evidence to support your views, etc. How awful for you.
We need more moderation, Dave…I agree 100% with Joy/Vajramusti about this.
It’s the newbies who will suffer the most if the situation is not corrected. They will give up on this forum very quickly, and a lot of older guys (who used to post regularly) will also stay away. Why should they bother to be here?
So what you want is for the mods to step in and let you play WCK authority to your hearts content – and you have the audacity to argue that you are really only doing this for the poor newbies (aren’t you sweet?), as they are being deprived of your WCK wisdom!
***THIS POST Terence gets called out about the fact that he tries to hijack thread-after-thread to pontificate about wing chun and criticize everything and everyone…and with no real understanding of what can be done with high level wing chun.
AND IF HE CAN’T DO IT - THEN NOBODY CAN.
Keep that in mind whenever you read his posts - because that’s the underlying
PERSONAL MOTIVATION for all his criticisms - that’s the key to understanding Terence Niehoff.
And therefore he’s is willing to say…and has said dozens of times…that there are NO authorities in wing chun…a bull5hit rationale for wanting to continue criticizing everyone, including people like Yip Man, William Cheung, Wong Shun Leung, Garrett Gee, Augustine Fong, Gary Lam, Moy Yat, Duncan Leung…this one…that one…you name the person…and he’ll probably have a post somewhere ripping into them.
Enough-is-enough with this crap, Dave…
guys like this allow their personal jealousies and insecurities to ruin the forum…because he will never stop posting HUNDREDS-UPON-HUNDREDS of posts trying to hide the truth about himself behind the facade of being a legitimate critic.
When will it stop?
When the amount of posts per week/month by other people dwindles down to basically nothing - compared to what it used to be years ago?
And then guys like Terence will get bored and go away? Is that what we have to look forward to?
[QUOTE=weakstudent;994859]really man thats great. but it snowing like crazy LOL. but thanks im always looking to get better. and i was told that the only way to get good at wing chun is to do it.
i will try to meet up with you soon as the weather is better.[/QUOTE]
I’m at 64 E. 4th St. 4th Fl. every Sat from 3:30 - 5:30pm. I plan on starting a week day class this spring. I welcome anyone to stop by.
I love this forum…
T posts make me laugh, you cant get angry, its too funny.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;995078]As I see it, the problem with questions like “how do you do WCK” or “what WCK really is”, etc. and why they lead to all kinds of opinions boil down IME (1) to mistaking the curriculum for the subject matter and (2) not looking at things from a skill-based perspective (but rather from a concept-based perspective). When you stop doing that, lots of things fall into place.
[/QUOTE]
Yes we know how you see it Terence, your life’s work posting here tells the tale..
WCK is an idea, a strategy with tactics, etc, it’s a way to fight and a way to train–a system…
You or I or anyone can take an idea or strategy and apply that idea in training and fighting.. That’s what being a hom0sapien is all about, we come up with an idea and then apply that idea, which in turn allows us to evaluate the idea and then reapply, test it, it’s cyclic. This process evolves in both action and thought, thought and intent drives training and action. You seem to want to separate the two, but they are parts of the whole of what we are…
If the idea/method you have is vastly different from the idea/method I have then there isn’t a hell of a lot to talk about re WCK because we are each going in different directions… Although, it’s not really clear what you do even thought you do love to advocate a particular emphasis.. If you really want to sell it then show it. If you don’t want to sell it then don’t.
I agree with 80% of what you write, even though you write it over and over and over and over. I am actually glad you do that part of it because otherwise I and others would have to. I see a lot of stuff here and elsewhere I don’t agree with.. And there is very little ‘new’ stuff as far as WCK information goes, but there is a lot of contradiction and you are no exception: “You have to be able to do it, otherwise you can’t understand, but anyone can teach it, yet teach it could mean 1st grade level, but then the curriculum is much different than the actual use, so the curriculum is no good, but that is how you teach it, and the curriculum is actually just informational so really no skill is required to teach it, but the blind are leading the blind because they can’t do it and don’t know, and any ideas/metaphors are useless”, but you do follow the faat, except when you don’t, and on and on… Good grief..
I would love to learn something new on the Net but alas I have heard most of it all before. Still, here and there some new spins can help one refine their focus in certain areas…
I do disagree that bashing is key to useful communication/debate.. You often disqualify people’s thoughts just based on use of certain language or ideas, because folks think differently than you do, the epitome of ethnocentrism and narrow mindedness. This is especially so when dealing with an Eastern art from another culture and then trying to cookie cut verbal explanations with a Western/Terence mold . A more sensible approach would be to get clarification and/or observe results and critique that instead of the language. I also think that it is quite possible and perhaps more reasonable to disagree and post your opinions without flaming, insulting and generally being a troll, a method that would normally get you booted from most fora.
[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;995148]Quote:
We need more moderation, Dave…I agree 100% with Joy/Vajramusti about this.
It’s the newbies who will suffer the most if the situation is not corrected. They will give up on this forum very quickly, and a lot of older guys (who used to post regularly) will also stay away. Why should they bother to be here? (Victor Parlati/Ultimatewingchun)
…
“So what you want is for the mods to step in and let you play WCK authority to your hearts content – and you have the audacity to argue that you are really only doing this for the poor newbies (aren’t you sweet?), as they are being deprived of your WCK wisdom!” (Terence Niehoff)
***THIS POST by Terence, Dave/Sihing 73, and everyone else reading this thread…is a perfect example of the disengenuous arguments that Terence always makes when he gets called out about the fact that he tries to hijack thread-after-thread to pontificate about wing chun and criticize everything and everyone…and with no real understanding of what can be done with high level wing chun.
[/QUOTE]
As I said, Victor, why don’t you show the world what “high level WCK can do”? LOL!
Where is this “high level WCK” that you talk about? Cheung? You must be kidding. You? How in the world can you talk about “high level WCK” when you haven’t seen it and can’t do it? This is pure fantasy. The only one who is disingenuous is YOU, because you want to be able to write your nonsense about “high level WCK” without being questioned – for the benefit, you say, of the newbies. I think the “newbies” should see that you have no clue.
AND IF HE CAN’T DO IT - THEN NOBODY CAN.
I never said that – stop LYING. Really good fighters can do all kinds of things I can’t. That’s why they are so much better than me. How do Iknow they can do things I can’t? Because we can all see them for ourselves. So where is this high level WCK, and why can’t we all see it for ourselves?
Keep that in mind whenever you read his posts - because that’s the underlying
PERSONAL MOTIVATION for all his criticisms - that’s the key to understanding Terence Niehoff.
The key to understanding me is simple: I base my conclusions on good evidence and sound reasoning, and I examine everything in that light. For people like you, who can’t support what they say with either, it can be frustrating.
And therefore he’s is willing to say…and has said dozens of times…that there are NO authorities in wing chun…a bull5hit rationale for wanting to continue criticizing everyone, including people like Yip Man, William Cheung, Wong Shun Leung, Garrett Gee, Augustine Fong, Gary Lam, Moy Yat, Duncan Leung…this one…that one…you name the person…and he’ll probably have a post somewhere ripping into them.
There are no authorities in WCK. Those people you mention are authorities pertaining to their curriculums, but not WCK. If you don’t understand and appreciate the difference, well, let’s just say that I am not surprised.
Enough-is-enough with this crap, Dave…
guys like this allow their personal jealousies and insecurities to ruin the forum…because he will never stop posting HUNDREDS-UPON-HUNDREDS of posts trying to hide the truth about himself behind the facade of being a legitimate critic.
As you’re about to see - since he’ll undoubtedly be back on here (this thread) with the same old dribble once again.
When will it stop?
Personal jealousies and insecurities? LOL! This from a guy who calls himsefl “ultimatewingchun”. You need to stop PROJECTING, dude. And, you may also want to look up the definition of “irony”.
When the amount of posts per week/month by other people dwindles down to basically nothing - compared to what it used to be years ago?
To translate: “we used to have a lot more noise and nonsense on the forum, especially by people like me, who want to be able to play WCK authority and don’t like our views challenged.” Good one.
And then guys like Terence will get bored and go away? Is that what we have to look forward to?
The chances of me going away are about the same as you going to train with good fighters at a good gym. So, when are you going to Renzo’s?