Well ST00, I do have to say that so far, alhtough your argument is good your stance (no pun intended) seems a little weak. You say that because no one can offer solid proof that forms are a benefit, they must not be. However, you have not put forward any solid proof against.
joedoe, - truly sorry. I’d much rather talk to new people than argue with the narow-minded 
Does that qualify the form as alive?
No Joe, the form is still scripted and is thus labeled a “drill”. but its an improvement imho to a form.
Redangel,
Proof for my side of the argument? I literally have hundreds of thousands of examples of boxers, kickboxers, judoka, wrestlers, sambo players, bjj, MMA athletes who win against other very skilled opponents by using this principle of training. None of those athletes uses forms to enhance performance and if forms did make them better, surely they would use that training method because bottom line: they use what works.
I understand what you are saying, and what you have said, but I propose that it isn’t the forms that is the issue, it’s the people doing the forms.
In all those sport fighting MA you mention, I haved run into plenty of people who have been willing to work hard for what they want. In my experience in CMA or TMA, it is usually not the case. For some reason most TMA people have this realiance on skill alone and not on getting into shape, addressing all areas of combat etc… It’s like some guys want to look at it realistically and the majority of those in sport fighting are like that, and some guys want to look at it like hollywood, and those guys get into TMA.
to bite a qoute from a rap forum
if kfo had a g-a-y post forum this would be the first thread.
seriously like 6 pages relating to nothing but conjecture
to bad we dont have any yawn smilys…but this guy will do:rolleyes:
oh fuc-k its at page 9 and not 6…JOY
Proof for my side of the argument? I literally have hundreds of thousands of examples of boxers, kickboxers, judoka, wrestlers, sambo players, bjj, MMA athletes who win against other very skilled opponents by using this principle of training. None of those athletes uses forms to enhance performance and if forms did make them better, surely they would use that training method because bottom line: they use what works.
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And just How many of these guys originally came from a traditional school and practiced countless hours of forms in thier formative years??
It seems to me, that in the beginning, and intermediate levels, forms practice has great value, especially for building and arsenal, and developing good structure and body mechanics. Even working out the applications to the forms in a two-man drill type of practice is very good for building tour arsenal. Every style of fighting has forms in one way or another. boxers Shadow box for instance. They don’t have all that much to remember, so it’s easy for them to go right to working random combo’s, but in Kung Fu, we are supposed to do this with our techniques as well. It’s actually part of forms training. We just have lots of techniques, and ways of entering and applying them, that is why our forms are longer.
You see, the form is actually the curriculum for the level your at. it contains all the techniques, as well as much of the exercises needed to really excel with those techniques.
Once you have the form memorized (or at least a section of it), and you can do it with proper structure and mechanics, you move to pre arranged two-man practice. Then once the techniques are well etched in your subconscious, and they work without having to “Think” about them, you start free fighting them. Even this free fighting is part of mastering the form, even though it is more formless.
Once you get to the free fighting part, you really just do the form as a warmup, or to look for new techniques to incorporate into your arsenal.
Training the form correctly requires doing the set form beginning to end, but it is also broken up into individual drills and trained just like the individual drills seen in MMA gyms, Boxing Gyms, and anything else physical that is taught. Gymnastics is a good example. I have seem my daughters coach drill her in her floor routine over and over again, as well as individual components of it. Kung Fu does the same thing, only it goes one step ****her, and teaches you to apply it in a free form environment because of the unpredictability of combat.
I really don’t see MMA gyms NOT doing this. If all they did was throw two guys together and say “FIGHT” there is no way they would learn anything. They must first have some skills to practice before they just free fight. In THAT phase of MMA training, they are doing forms work. Without it, they would NEVER be able to develop a “Live” game because they would not have an arsenal to play the game with in the first place.
Kung fu forms are just longer, that’s all. In the end, you end up training the same way, one little bit at a time, only instead of having the “Gracie CD ROM” to reference, you have a memorized, choreographed routine to reference that does not require electronic equipment to access.
Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
[B]joedoe, - truly sorry. I’d much rather talk to new people than argue with the narow-minded
Does that qualify the form as alive?
No Joe, the form is still scripted and is thus labeled a “drill”. but its an improvement imho to a form.
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But it is not exactly scripted - you don’t know what the checker is going to do.