ShaolinTiger00
[i]"Aliveness = training against a fully resisting, unscripted opponent.
‘No one trains all with aliveness. Not boxers, not muay thai-ists, not wrestlers. It’s a neat idea to try to vindicate what you do to others though.’ = The stupidest thing written today."[/i]
Care to say why? Or are we reduced to just throwing around insults here?
I don’t mind at all Braden.
You said that boxers and kickboxer do not train with “aliveness” and that couldn’t be further from the truth!
They and grappling such as judo, sambo, bjj are based almost entirely on this training principle.
They work at full speed and power with skilled opponents who are fully resisting and attacking as well.
dnc - DO NOT pour dit da jow onto an open wound! don’t use it period, but especially not in that scenario.
DNC101: Do you remember those blue mats they always have hanging on the walls in most high school gyms? They are regularly replaced by schools who they sell them off with huge discounts (Third party buys them at $2 each and sells them for profit. One of my friends actually works in the warehouse that takes them when they are no longer needed.) He says that its a first come first serve basis and they really dont care who buys them. If you can somehow get into the loop at a local school you may be able to make out like a bandit and spare yourself paying $25 per cubic meter.
Really, ShaolinTiger?
Cause the wrestlers I know spent alot of time, for instance, doing sprawl drills with a wall-cable. And the boxers I know spent an awful lot of time doing cable duck-and-weave drills and hitting heavy bags. The muay thai-ists I know spend an awful lot of time kicking heavy pads.
Am I unusual? In your area, is none of this true?
You are confusing doing drills for strength & technique with application. While they may work on rills to learn these. From the beginning they are put into application in a contact world.
HUGE difference.
If they did drills and no contact, they’d be no better at fighting than form guys. Its all about the application and constant testing under those circumstances.
Bob-and-weave, sprawl, boxing strikes, and muay thai kicks aren’t applications? 
not if they aren’t APPLIED in fighting. Without this they are drills.
How hard is this to comprehend?
So how are forms applications?
that is my entire point! They are not applications and since traditional MA do not fight full contact on a daily/weekly basis, their techniques often fail them because they have no “proving ground”.
They are not applications and since traditional MA do not fight full contact on a daily/weekly basis, their techniques often fail them because they have no “proving ground”.
what are you talking about???
there is plenty of ways and methods developed in traditional martial arts to test the methods as transmitted through form.
it is encouraged that when students of Chinese martial arts learn some techniques that they do there best to test those techniques in open sparring.
The sparring is designed to the level of skill that the opponents have.
More skill in the style, the more freestyle the sparring gets.
The form teaches the techniques, the drills help you understand the essence of technique and free sparring helps you to understand when and where to use a given technique.
do you think because it isn’t sportified enough and put on tv for our amusment there is no proving ground for Kungfu?
cheers
“Aliveness = training against a fully resisting, unscripted opponent.”
Thanks for the new fancy word. We used to call this sparring. Now we can call it Aliveness training. I wonder what maketing genious thought up this spinneroony.
“and since traditional MA do not fight full contact on a daily/weekly basis, their techniques often fail them because they have no “proving ground”.”
This is an over used generalization that is bloated and convenient. Maybe you didn’t spar in whatever BS you used to train in. But we did, and so did many of the schools we competered against. Who do you think started this whole san shou thing? Karate guys? nnnnnnnnnnnnnnno.
“sparring” - traditional martial arts double speak for what they call light contact slapping. Causing a false sense of security and teaching bad qualities of power, timing, motion attributes.
You can keep your foam chops and your glass jaw.
So it sounds to me like boxers, wrestlers, muay thai-ists don’t do all alive training. Right? Hey… that’s exactly what I said which you replied was stupid.
So what is your problem with forms? It simply cannot be that they’re not alive, as we’ve established here that boxers, etc also do things that aren’t alive.
As for some alive training…
I do unscripted attacks with my teacher in every class.
‘San shou’ is a free-fighting format present in every traditional chinese martial art.
Hey wow… both groups do both alive and not-alive training.
So what, exactly, is the difference?
“sparring” - traditional martial arts double speak for what they call light contact slapping. Causing a false sense of security and teaching bad qualities of power, timing, motion attributes.
uh, this statement can only be a reflection of your own personal experience.
You certainly seem to stick to your views irregardless of the centuries of accumulated and transmitted knowledge of the fighting arts that is still handed down today in “traditional” formats using “traditional” methods, around the world. :rolleyes:
I’m only guessing though 
cheers
I like and agree with a lot of Matt’s philo regarding training. But not all of it. Drilling attributes and the “techniques” of the game can be found in any sport. Ifwe’re talking about sports training then we have to be conclusive to sports training. No baseball team gets its players together and sends them out into games or even mock games with the attitude of “okay, this is a real game, go!”
They isolate different aspects of the game, focus on athletic performance, strength training, cardio, running, etc. If someone wants to work on grounders they will be fed 100 grounders. The drill should still be “alive” in that the person must continually work his way up to catching more difficult grounders.
Football players don’t scrimage all the time. If they want to work on passes, they’ll throw 100 passes, they’ll tackle football dummies 100 times. THEN they apply these things in actual game simulation (sparring). But no football team will EVER win the superbowl if they simply play simulation games all the time. They will develop bad habits, sloppiness, etc. They may win some games with other teams, but they’ll never get past the teams who are constantly drilling their attributes, techniques, AND applying these things in open practice.
I think most understand this here though. I am probably preaching to the crowd. The notion that sports people don’t do “repetative” drills in incorrect. All do. Baseballers repeat batting 100 balls thrown to them (though its up to them to hit it), footballers repeat throwing passes and catching passes over and over (though its up to them to catch it) Basketballers repeat 3 point shots over and over (though its up to them to make them.)
The point here is that even “repeating drills” can be done “alive” in some sense.
I do not believe that a martial artist has to spar full contact everyday for the rest of his life, and anything else he does is taking away from his fighting ability. Like MightyB said, that’s just dumb thinking :rolleyes:
I do think the skills and techniques you work on HAVE to be tested in sparring conditions. Good sparring conditions where everything is legal. But you don’t have to do this everyday.
You can work on hitting the heavy bag, flow drills on the grapplingdummy, groundpound drills, focus mitt training, shadowboxing, and isolate slipping jabs, sprawling on takedowns, clinching, etc. WITH a progressively resisting partner.
This is what has to be done. When I first started BJJ, my training partners at the school didn’t just refuse to let me apply the moves. They allowed me to apply them with increasing levels of resistence, then try them out in all out sparring at the end.
That’s the way we did it for as many years as I was there. That’s how we did it in judo for the 2 or 3 years I was at that school.
That’s the way it should be done.
You can definitly train solo. You can shadowbox, drill combinations on the bag, work on your jab by throwing 100 full power jabs to a bag or manaquin bag, etc. Eye jabs, pre-emptive hits, the whole deal.
But after a while you NEED to see where you’re at. It’s time to get training partners together, and go at it full out no consent. Test your stuff always under full resistence.
But it just doesn’t have to be tested every waking hour of your existence.
Ryu
You certainly seem to stick to your views irregardless of the centuries of accumulated and transmitted knowledge of the fighting arts that is still handed down today in “traditional” formats using “traditional” methods, around the world.
That’s the irony. This “forms = a way to fight” mentality isn’t centuries old. It’s in the last few generations that this crime against CMA occurred.
““sparring” - traditional martial arts double speak for what they call light contact slapping. Causing a false sense of security and teaching bad qualities of power, timing, motion attributes.”
“uh, this statement can only be a reflection of your own personal experience.” Good one KL,
I agree totally this is a bloated generalization.
You seem to be confusing karate point tournament with kung fu again.
You ask me to show you where you are wrong. I think others already have. The majority on this thread thinks you are mistaken. Maybe you should heed the advice, its not just me.
Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
That’s the irony. This “forms = a way to fight” mentality isn’t centuries old. It’s in the last few generations that this crime against CMA occurred.
And I guess you got proof of this.
It really amazes me how people know what was thought and done 100 yrs ago when we even can’t agree on some things a few years back.
Remember what is writen down is not neccessarily what happened or the gospel truth.
I haven’t read the whole thread yet, so this may have been said…
There is value to forms. They are used to teach you the principles of your system - how to move properly. you can spar all day, and you will not once move like a mantis stylist, for example, if you do not know how you are supposed to move. that is what drilling and forms are for. In addition, I think that they are good for muscle memory. Do you place your knee past your feet when you go into a bow and arrow stance, or do you do it properly? are your feet pointed correctly when you go into a horse stance, or must you correct yourself? on the same token, bad habits can be formed.
is the repetitive solo technique drilling in judo and bjj useless also? according to this article, they would be.
I feel hurt now - ST00 ignored my post 