For example, there are no Dog Brothers who are premier professional fighters. A method that the Dog Brothers will use occasionally is to find fighters who seem to exemplify aspects of Dog Brother Martial Arts to demonstrate the applicability of the techniques against a strong opponent.
I often like to point to Chuck Liddell Losses. Chuck throws more looping techniques and he has been out-struck by by Randy Couture and Quinton Jackson because those fighters committed to dominating the center line.
To answer your request for opinions.The following folks are NOT wing chun folks- but some things that they did parallel some “natural” concepts that are also there in wing chun.
1 Tyson when he was still training with Rooney–peekaboo structure, fairly squarebodied, and short power uppercuts0…when he left Rooney- in the Douglas fight- out of shape, broken peekabpp structure and wild uppercuts and not in peak condition.After Rooney he hada terrible trainer. Downhill after dumping Rooney. The promoter and private problems also played their roles.
What a waste of talent- a real and classic tragedy.
Winky Wrights hand peekaboo structure for defense…body structure didn’t result in short power.
His lack of structure based power and Paul William’s reach were factors in his last defeat.
4 Federenko’s one punch knockout of Arlovski when the latter tried to make a flying knee.Roach was critical of Emiliano’s handwork before the fight and trained Arlovski. Roach did a good job with the Pacman but he aint perfect.No one is.
Again- no misinterpretation please- they are not wing chunners. I am referring to some concepts to think about..
Why is it that wing chun guys have to look for examples of wing chun techniques from guys in a full contact enviroment that have never trained wing chun?
And bringing up Liddel is silly, he lost a few fights so what…he has won a lot of fights with looping punches as well, 13 of his wins have come by TKO and he put Randy on his a*s twice with them…and fedor has done quite well with casting punches
Can you explain the dog brothers quote it makes no sense.. the dog brothers are a gathering of fighters that enjoy testing their skills with weapons against each other in a full contact enviroment, of course they are not profesional as there is no professional weapons format for them to enter, what exactly is your point?
If there was a pro format they would be cleaning up in it, and the techniques they use in empty hand fighting (wrestling, BJJ boxing) are all found in MMA and used by pro fighters
Personally, I don’t see that pro fighters, most of whom have never taken a WC lesson in their lives, necessarily do anything to validate WC when they win fights using techniques or strategies which in almost all cases bear only a coincidental or superficial relationship to those used in WC. This IMO smakcs of a certain level of desperation.
How many pro fighters fight off both sides of the body, use chi sao (really) and use any WC-like techniques rather than straight punches?
If you want to compete well in boxing, wrestling, MMA, kickboxing, etc. you need to work with coaches who understand the rules and the most effective techniques to win under them. All the WC classes in the world will not have the same result. Competition fighters fight the way they do because of one thing - what they do has worked and continues to work in competition.
I don’t think this searching for validation from pro athletes for stickfighting in the DB’s case, or WC in ours, is necessary. Their aims are different to those of many/most of us. The pro MMA fighters at my BJJ/MMA gym train differently to the amateurs and hobbyists in the same classes.
Some of the DB’s have competed extensively at various levels. Knifefighter is a DB and has competed in boxing, BJJ, wrestling, kickboxing and MMA IIRC.
Some WC practititoners, on this board and elsewhere have competed, some professionally, in various combat disciplines with success. Fair to say I think that they have needed to train in stuff other than WC to get there.
I’m not trying to shoot you down, and these are just my own opinions.
i always liked rickson gracie. So direct, only uses the bjj for control while he smashes them. But does take the submissions when they come up. Seems like a cool dude too.
Sure- and it has and is expected.Ok when comments are clearly and civilly stated
[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;981147]Unfortunately, I am sure that it will happen anyway.[/QUOTE]
Just responding to the first post on the thread… on which pros I admire and for what.
Some points:
Nature is the context -it’s possibilities and it’s limits.Gravity, balance, acceleration etc are all phenomena in nature.
Wing chun is NOT a collection of techniques IMO. It’s an attempt to use best control over oneself in motion.
3.Nothing wrong with trying to see and understand good motion in what others do. It can develop self defense without breaking the body down. But if one doesn’t understand wing chun concepts
gibberish and an unblended stew can result. can result.
4.After getting a sense of good motion- nothing wrong in seeing whether it can be used in a wing chun physiological framework. It’s still doing wing chun not boxing etc. You are trying to experiment with nature for your own purposes.And understanding the limits.
Good studies in motion try to point at nature at work.
It’s ok to disagree- I have no problem with that. Gotta go. Ok to have it your way. Cheers.
[QUOTE=Frost;981153]Why is it that wing chun guys have to look for examples of wing chun techniques from guys in a full contact enviroment that have never trained wing chun?
And bringing up Liddel is silly, he lost a few fights so what…he has won a lot of fights with looping punches as well, 13 of his wins have come by TKO and he put Randy on his a*s twice with them…and fedor has done quite well with casting punches
Can you explain the dog brothers quote it makes no sense.. the dog brothers are a gathering of fighters that enjoy testing their skills with weapons against each other in a full contact enviroment, of course they are not profesional as there is no professional weapons format for them to enter, what exactly is your point?
If there was a pro format they would be cleaning up in it, and the techniques they use in empty hand fighting (wrestling, BJJ boxing) are all found in MMA and used by pro fighters[/QUOTE]
it’s becoming pretty apparent that you don’t have much of an eye for looking at real-time techniques. U.K. martial arts is often described as being 10 years behind other countries. Your ignorance is probably a product of the substandard martial arts that you study.
[QUOTE=anerlich;981154]Personally, I don’t see that pro fighters, most of whom have never taken a WC lesson in their lives, necessarily do anything to validate WC when they win fights using techniques or strategies which in almost all cases bear only a coincidental or superficial relationship to those used in WC. This IMO smakcs of a certain level of desperation.[/QUOTE]
It depends on why a WC instructor is pointing to a professional fighter. Students should begin to see that techniques work, but their isn’t much wrong with showing how other fighters apply WC principles (often unknowingly) to great effect.
[QUOTE=anerlich;981154]
How many pro fighters fight off both sides of the body, use chi sao (really) and use any WC-like techniques rather than straight punches?
[/QUOTE]
Good point! it is probably a good idea to keep in mind the similarities and disimilarities when using a pracitioner of anothe art as an example of a specific aspect of your own.
[QUOTE=anerlich;981154]
If you want to compete well in boxing, wrestling, MMA, kickboxing, etc. you need to work with coaches who understand the rules and the most effective techniques to win under them. All the WC classes in the world will not have the same result. Competition fighters fight the way they do because of one thing - what they do has worked and continues to work in competition.
[/QUOTE]
Yup
[QUOTE=anerlich;981154]
I don’t think this searching for validation from pro athletes for stickfighting in the DB’s case, or WC in ours, is necessary. Their aims are different to those of many/most of us. The pro MMA fighters at my BJJ/MMA gym train differently to the amateurs and hobbyists in the same classes.
[/QUOTE]
Of course it isn’t necessary. It’s just something to talk about.
[QUOTE=anerlich;981154]
Some of the DB’s have competed extensively at various levels. Knifefighter is a DB and has competed in boxing, BJJ, wrestling, kickboxing and MMA IIRC.
[/QUOTE]
I guess that I should say that their aren’t any Dog Brother Instructors who are premier fighters. Therefore, much of their stuff hasn’t been proven at the highest level.
The DB empty handed MA system, Kali tudo, is a more “recent” development from their Kali background.
It is basically MMA with Kali footwork.
There are a few guys that have been trained in it that are doing MMA now, I forget their names since I don’t follow MMA.
The techniques taught and used are the tried and true once that have been being used for decades now in “MMA”, the only “uniqueness” being, like I said, some kali “pyramid” footwork.
There are a few other things too, but those are not for the general public yet but they have been used already in MMA and with good success.
[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;981278]Yea, it is mainly the Kali footwork that hasn’t been proven at the elite level. There are no premier/elite DMBA fighters as of yet.[/QUOTE]
I guess that I should say that their aren’t any Dog Brother Instructors who are premier fighters. Therefore, much of their stuff hasn’t been proven at the highest level.
IIRC their gatherings were/are open to all comers, and are well attended by non-DB practitioners, even if they are not a professional body. Even if the forum is not that of professional athletes, I think you have to give them kudos as proving themselves as being among the top level of stickfighters.
I don’t think they claim to be elite MMAers in any case.
“Proving” that the DB’s are or aren’t elite MMA fighters says exactly zero about the efficacy or otherwise of WC, in any forum, so I don’t see their relevance to the subject of the thread.
[QUOTE=Frost;981153]Why is it that wing chun guys have to look for examples of wing chun techniques from guys in a full contact enviroment that have never trained wing chun?
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=anerlich;981366]IIRC their gatherings were/are open to all comers, and are well attended by non-DB practitioners, even if they are not a professional body. Even if the forum is not that of professional athletes, I think you have to give them kudos as proving themselves as being among the top level of stickfighters.
I don’t think they claim to be elite MMAers in any case.
“Proving” that the DB’s are or aren’t elite MMA fighters says exactly zero about the efficacy or otherwise of WC, in any forum, so I don’t see their relevance to the subject of the thread.[/QUOTE]
I have seen Denny use tape from non-stick fighters to demonstrate the effectiveness of the upright empty-hand DBMA. Specifically, he has pointed to fighters who seemed to naturally use the kali footwork. I mentioned that Denny has done this to head off some of the knuckle-heads, who are too narrow minded to understand the conversation that is occurring.
I have seen Denny use tape from non-stick fighters to demonstrate the effectiveness of the upright empty-hand DBMA. Specifically, he has pointed to fighters who seemed to naturally use the kali footwork. I mentioned that Denny has done this to head off some of the knuckle-heads, who are too narrow minded to understand the conversation that is occurring.
If you are saying he uses tape of MMA matches by fighters untrained in kali who seem to use footwork that looks like kali, as stated already IMO this is not really true validation of his method for the same reasons I feel that citing MMA fighters untrained in WC but who look a bit like WC validate WC.
My opinion only, and I mean no disrespect to Marc Denny’s ability or experience. To my mind it’s a matter of logic, not intelligence.
And once again, his opinions about Kali say zero about the efficacy of WC.
[QUOTE=anerlich;981430]If you are saying he uses tape of MMA matches by fighters untrained in kali who seem to use footwork that looks like kali, as stated already IMO this is not really true validation of his method for the same reasons I feel that citing MMA fighters untrained in WC but who look a bit like WC validate WC.
My opinion only, and I mean no disrespect to Marc Denny’s ability or experience. To my mind it’s a matter of logic, not intelligence.
And once again, his opinions about Kali say zero about the efficacy of WC.[/QUOTE]
actually, what it does do is validate specific concepts or techniques that these systems use.
If a UFC guy is defeating his opponents by successfully dominating the centerline, then it proves the validity of that concept-which is a focal point of WC.
If Denny shows a successfull fighter utilizing triangle footwork, then it validates those concepts which are mainstays of his FMA.
[QUOTE=TenTigers;981438]actually, what it does do is validate specific concepts or techniques that these systems use.
If a UFC guy is defeating his opponents by successfully dominating the centerline, then it proves the validity of that concept-which is a focal point of WC.
If Denny shows a successfull fighter utilizing triangle footwork, then it validates those concepts which are mainstays of his FMA.[/QUOTE]
So true. It’s not about techniques or looking like something, it’s about ideas and methods. Wing Chun is only a label, we need to not be attached to the label, but conerned with what the method is teaching and enabling us to absorb.
Machida reminds me of WC in application, he’s non telegraphic, he’s connected and upright (not broken hip/bent in structure), he has little set up generally. Yeah, I know he’s sideways from the outside, but that is on the outside, where there is no need to be connected but rather mobile. He hit and runs a bit too much but what I mentioned reminds of the appliation of the training. Tim Silva did as well, upright, straight on fighter.