Effective use of what looks like a centreline concept or triangle footwork, validates those concepts, which belong to many MA, not just WC. They don’t validate WC or kali.
Machida’s never had a WC lesson in his life, using him as a WC poster boy is absurd.
Wing Chun is only a label
Not one you can seriously apply to what Machida or other MMA fighters do.
He hit and runs a bit too much
Oh, please. Everyone’s an MMA coach now?
[QUOTE=anerlich;981448]Effective use of what looks like a centreline concept or triangle footwork, validates those concepts, which belong to many MA, not just WC. They don’t validate WC or kali.
[/QUOTE]
Actually, they do just that. If a system is based upon specific concepts, and those concepts are shown to be effective-then they do in fact validate that system-at least that part of that system.
What do you find in WC or Kali that is not valid?
Again it’s all about ideas, moments in time, not set techniques or guarantees that this style or that will work 100% of the time. That fight between Belfort and W Silva (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1dh_x2rqKc), demonstrates validity of the idea of straight blasting and forward pressure, it works, but one still has to be able to pull it off, and not all of us are Belfort, so the idea is sound, the individual has to make it work for themselves.
The ones hung up on the label are the ones that don’t or won’t see it.
James
[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;981251]it’s becoming pretty apparent that you don’t have much of an eye for looking at real-time techniques. U.K. martial arts is often described as being 10 years behind other countries. Your ignorance is probably a product of the substandard martial arts that you study.[/QUOTE]
Oh very good you with all your years of training from video tapes obviously have a much better eye for real time technique so tell me where I am wrong?
Fedor does not throw casting punches then? Liddell did not kick Randy’s ass and Titos and everyone else’s over 5 years when he was champ with his open punching style……Or the reason the dog brothers aren’t pro fighters is that there is not a pro weapons format for them to fight in…… Or that its pitiful that wing chun has so few guys competing in full contact events in the west that you have to look outside the style to find evidence of it working…..which of the above is incorrect?
As for the dog brothers they can point to their stuff working in a full contact environment (gathering etc that their fighters attend on a regular basis) as well as to other fighters doing what they say to do in a Pro event. …can wing chun do the same and say yes here is an MMA fighter dominating the centreline, but wait here is a wing chun instructor using it in a NHB event as well, and here is another and another……
Anyway as Anelich said it is a pointless argument, you should not have to look outside your style to find examples of its principles working…the dog brothers do not have to do this their weapons stuff has been proven to work in NHB for years, its not a pro event but weapon fighters from all over the USA attend, that is their testing ground and proof that their stuff works.
Where is wing chuns testing ground and prove that it works? It does not matter that you can find your principles in others actions, you question should be why can’t you find it in your styles actions in a similar NHB event….. if others can show the centreline theory or whatever better in action than your own style, then perhaps you should be studying what they do and their training methods rather than just saying “hey look they look like we should do isn’t that great and what an endorsement of what I do in my training”?
As for the MA scene being 10 years behind in the UK and my substandard MA history… well LMAO perhaps you should change your handle as that’s not a very humble attitude to have is it
[QUOTE=TenTigers;981450]Actually, they do just that. If a system is based upon specific concepts, and those concepts are shown to be effective-then they do in fact validate that system-at least that part of that system.
What do you find in WC or Kali that is not valid?[/QUOTE]
Actually it does not, it calls into question that styles training methods
All styles are based upon Principles, but it’s the training methods used to make those principles work that are important. If a style has great principles but can only find examples of those principles in use in styles other than itself, then does that not call into question the methods used to train those principles?
If we both have the same concepts/principles in fighting, but one of us can use those concepts and principles in a fight enviroment and one can not, then it validates one persons training methods and calls into question the others
[QUOTE=TenTigers;981450]Actually, they do just that. If a system is based upon specific concepts, and those concepts are shown to be effective-then they do in fact validate that system-at least that part of that system.
What do you find in WC or Kali that is not valid?[/QUOTE]
This whole “validates concepts” idea is absurd. People don’t fight with concepts. And looking at things from a conceptual standpoint is wrong-headed in the first place – that doesn’t lead to clarity but to confusion.
“Boxing has straight punches, WCK uses straight punches, so see they use similar concepts of the centerline!” Well, how can you hit an opponent in front of you with a straight punch and not have it go down the center? But that’s the sort of reasoning conceptual people use.
Various martial arts use different approaches to fighting, those different approaches require different skills or skill sets. Similar approaches look similar since in trying to do similar things, they have to use similar skills. WCK isn’t built on principles, it is skill-based. You don’t see WCK unless you see WCK skills in action, just likeyou don’t see boxing unless you see boxing skills in action, or BJJ unless you see BJJ skills in action. When you see Tyson or Machida or whomever are you seeing WCK skills in action? No. So you are not seeing WCK. Period.
[QUOTE=Frost;981472]Actually it does not, it calls into question that styles training methods
All styles are based upon Principles, but its the training methods used to make those principles work that are important. If a style has great principles but can only find examples of those principles in use in styles other than itself, then does that not call into question the methods used to train those principles?
If we both have the same concepts/principles in fighting, but one of us can use those concepts and principles in a fight enviroment and one can not, then it validates one persons training methods and calls into question the others[/QUOTE]
Styles are not based on principles, they are based on an approach to fighting and the skills to implement that approach. Principles/concepts are ideas to help you use those skills.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;981480]Styles are not based on principles, they are based on an approach to fighting and the skills to implement that approach. Principles/concepts are ideas to help you use those skills.[/QUOTE]
fair enough perhaps i should have siad all styles have principles/concepts…but my point still stands its not the principles that are inportant, its the training methods used to make them work.
[QUOTE=Frost;981483]fair enough perhaps i should have siad all styles have principles/concepts…but my point still stands its not the principles that are inportant, its the training methods used to make them work.[/QUOTE]
When you look at things from a skill-based perspective, it follows that how you train will determine how (well) you develop those skills.
[QUOTE=Frost;981471]Oh very good you with all your years of training from video tapes obviously have a much better eye for real time technique so tell me where I am wrong?
Fedor does not throw casting punches then? Liddell did not kick Randy’s ass and Titos and everyone else’s over 5 years when he was champ with his open punching style……Or the reason the dog brothers aren’t pro fighters is that there is not a pro weapons format for them to fight in…… Or that its pitiful that wing chun has so few guys competing in full contact events in the west that you have to look outside the style to find evidence of it working…..which of the above is incorrect?
As for the dog brothers they can point to their stuff working in a full contact environment (gathering etc that their fighters attend on a regular basis) as well as to other fighters doing what they say to do in a Pro event. …can wing chun do the same and say yes here is an MMA fighter dominating the centreline, but wait here is a wing chun instructor using it in a NHB event as well, and here is another and another……
Anyway as Anelich said it is a pointless argument, you should not have to look outside your style to find examples of its principles working…the dog brothers do not have to do this their weapons stuff has been proven to work in NHB for years, its not a pro event but weapon fighters from all over the USA attend, that is their testing ground and proof that their stuff works.
Where is wing chuns testing ground and prove that it works? It does not matter that you can find your principles in others actions, you question should be why can’t you find it in your styles actions in a similar NHB event….. if others can show the centreline theory or whatever better in action than your own style, then perhaps you should be studying what they do and their training methods rather than just saying “hey look they look like we should do isn’t that great and what an endorsement of what I do in my training”?
As for the MA scene being 10 years behind in the UK and my substandard MA history… well LMAO perhaps you should change your handle as that’s not a very humble attitude to have is it[/QUOTE]
I have had 10-15 full-contact kickboxing matches what have you done?
[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;981499]I have had 10-15 full-contact kickboxing matches what have you done?[/QUOTE]
really that’s how you answer my points… um ok thanks for the insight…now with all that experience please tell me where I am wrong about Liddell and fedor, where my points about the dog brothers is wrong and where I am wrong about wing chun not having a proving ground and not being able to site its own fighters using its principles effectively
[QUOTE=Frost;981471]Oh very good you with all your years of training from video tapes obviously have a much better eye for real time technique so tell me where I am wrong?
[/QUOTE]
I have had 10-15 full-contact kickboxing matches what have you done? Good fighters watch other good fighters. If you didn’t live in the U.K., you would have a more sophisticated understanding of fighting and be able to make better use of watching fights. You just don’t understand what your looking at which is obvious.
[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;981505]I have had 10-15 full-contact kickboxing matches what have you done?[/quote]
You’re saying that to Frost? Honestly? :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=AdrianK;981510]You’re saying that to Frost? Honestly? :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
sorry have a do something to annoy or upset you:confused:
[QUOTE=Frost;981512]sorry have a do something to annoy or upset you:confused:[/QUOTE]
I just thought it was kinda well known by now that you’re one of the voices of reason on this board.
[QUOTE=AdrianK;981513]I just thought it was kinda well known by now that you’re one of the voices of reason on this board.[/QUOTE]
are you being sarcastic or what:eek:
me a voice of reason?
[QUOTE=Frost;981514]are you being sarcastic or what:eek:
me a voice of reason?[/QUOTE]
In a forum like this, yeah, hahah.
[QUOTE=AdrianK;981520]In a forum like this, yeah, hahah.[/QUOTE]
i think thats a compliment so thanks 
[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;981505]I have had 10-15 full-contact kickboxing matches what have you done? Good fighters watch other good fighters. If you didn’t live in the U.K., you would have a more sophisticated understanding of fighting and be able to make better use of watching fights. You just don’t understand what your looking at which is obvious.[/QUOTE]
a more sophisticated understanding of fighting like you… umm ok so tell me where was i wrong about liddel winning so many fights using those looping punches of his, or fedor winning so many fights whislt throwing casting punches…
[QUOTE=Frost;981523]a more sophisticated understanding of fighting like you… umm ok so tell me where was i wrong about liddel winning so many fights using those looping punches of his, or fedor winning so many fights whislt throwing casting punches…[/QUOTE]
I am not against looping techniques. The clear point is look at how the great chuck liddell crumbles when he lets his love affair with looping techniques blind him and a lesser striker adheres to WC-like princiles. Beyond that, I am not really interested in giving you a free martial arts lesson.