Where is the WCK?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;987063]I think most people know that. Look at it this way. I’m NOT going to change what has worked for me against “skilled” opponents in the ring because of your uninformed opinions. I can name drop but why should I since you won’t even post a clip.
Don’t make a judgment based on short video clips that you don’t understand. You are the type of person that has to feel to believe. btw, how much to you weigh?[/QUOTE]

I think you have inadvertently hit on something. You SAY these things work against skilled opponents yet – and lots of peopel SAY the same thing – and although you put up tons of clips, you never put up one showing what you practice working against skilled opponents.

I really think what is going on is you believe it works in spite of the evidence that it doesn’t – and that is why you have no clips of it working. This is the same thing that is going on when you claim simul blocks and striking “works” (even though I and Dale and others pointed out they are very low percentage) and that you do it all the time. When it was pointed out to you that your own clips of your guys fighting show that not to be the case (only one example in all your clips), you continue to believe your dogma and not your eyes.

But, of course, you and your students can do what even world-class athletes can’t. I understand.

Aa far as my putting up clips, as I said, I see that as a major part of the problem – we should not be putting outselves out there as authorities. If people want to see what things can and do work, the evidence is already out there in abundance, just watch MMA.

And I normally weigh in the 170s.

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[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;987071]Thanks for your post. You said politely what I really want to say on a street level. I have martial arts brothers/sisters from different linegages and students who are members here so with regards to Terence I’ll try to adhere to proper martial arts Mo Duk.[/QUOTE]

Mo duk is more TCMA bullsh1t.

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[QUOTE=YungChun;987070]If something doesn’t work for you when fighting does that mean that thing can’t work for someone else in fighting?

If something doesn’t work for you when fighting today does that mean that thing can’t work for you in the future?

If something doesn’t work for you when fighting does that mean that thing is invalid?

How do you determine (in VT) what is valid and what is not? You do make those statements..

Is your EXPERIENCE then a template to use on someone else?

According to your own logic it is not and can’t be.

Yet you pontificate on what is and what is not valid for others regardless of their experience…based on your own.
[/QUOTE]

It’s a very easy thing to see what sorts of things CONSISTENTLY “work” (not just are lucky breaks) and what doesn’t in the real world – just look at fighting and you see those things for yourself. Sure not everyone can do what others can do, there are individual differences, but those occur in a range of possibilites everyone operates in. While I can’t do many things, I can see that they are possiblle since others are consistently doing them.

You ask “Is your EXPERIENCE then a template to use on someone else?” And the answer is OF COURSE. YYou, yourself, do it all the time. If I told you I could levitate and fly around the room would you believe me or would you consider me to be delusional since your experience tells you such things are impossible? Wheny ou go to the doctor, do you think she uses her experience as a template to use on somebody else? Of course. And if someone tells me they can defeat skilled grapplers on the ground by using biting, finger pokes, etc. do I use my experience grappling with very good grapplers to know that is bunk? Of course.

If your experience is a valid template for others to be judged then you must have something to teach… Otherwise you can’t apply your template on others because each is person is unique and can only have his own.

Your reasoning isn’t sound. You can have good, sufficient experience to know whether something works or doesn’t work and still not be skillful yourself – experience alone doesn’t confer skill. An advanced white belt will know, for example, that biting and gouging won’t work to defeat a skilled grappler yet he isn’t very good.

And, I never said, that I am not qualified to teach WCK or that Phil isn’t qualified to teach WCK. Anyone who knows the curriculum of WCK can teach it. But learning to use it is personal.

Those with knowledge of really applying any art can serve to guide… It’s done in all ‘real’ fighting arts..

Guide or get off.

And I am providing guidance, you just don’t like the message.

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[QUOTE=t_niehoff;987100]And, I never said, that I am not qualified to teach WCK or that Phil isn’t qualified to teach WCK. Anyone who knows the curriculum of WCK can teach it. But learning to use it is personal.
[/QUOTE]

Sure, you don’t say Phil isn’t qualified, but you imply it every time you post. I’m not going to go pull up the countless post where you say he and his guys train unrealisticly, use unrealistic finger strikes, entry technique, etc. But you want us to believe you aren’t saying he isn’t qualified??

Just looking a few posts back, are these the things you say to someone that you believe is qualified to teach WC?
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;987100] really think what is going on is you believe it works in spite of the evidence that it doesn’t – and that is why you have no clips of it working. This is the same thing that is going on when you claim simul blocks and striking “works” (even though I and Dale and others pointed out they are very low percentage) and that you do it all the time. When it was pointed out to you that your own clips of your guys fighting show that not to be the case (only one example in all your clips), you continue to believe your dogma and not your eyes.

But, of course, you and your students can do what even world-class athletes can’t. I understand. [/QUOTE]

BTW, when do you want me to book your ticket to visit Phil? :wink:

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[QUOTE=JPinAZ;987186]Sure, you don’t say Phil isn’t qualified, but you imply it every time you post. I’m not going to go pull up the countless post where you say he and his guys train unrealisticly, use unrealistic finger strikes, entry technique, etc. But you want us to believe you aren’t saying he isn’t qualified??
[/QUOTE]

Phil knows the WCK curriculum. It’s in the forms, the dummy, the drills, the kuit, etc. We all - more or less - have that. Having the curriclum and being qualified to teach the curriculum doesn’t mean we can use it or know how to use it ( if we can’t use it, then we don’t know). That’s the problem with TMAs: the curriculum is separate and distinct from application.

Let’s use one of your examples. Bil sao is in the WCK curriculum. We all know that tool. But it isn’t a finger strike, you can’t use the tool that way. Striking with the fingers is nonsense, it won’t do anything but get your fingers broken. But you or Phil or anyone can easily prove me wrong by showing everyone that you can do that in fighting successfully. Yet, we never see any evidence produced showing that – and the reason is because it doesn’t work.

This example illustrates the larger problem: When we listen to people who can’t do it (finger strike in fighting, for example) tell us that’s what we should be doing, tell us the theory of why it is good, etc. and when we buy into that, we are training to fail. You can’t learn to apply the WCK tools by listening to people who can’t apply them. It’s better to disregard what they are saying - because it is nonsense - and just go see for yourself.

Just looking a few posts back, are these the things you say to someone that you believe is qualified to teach WC?

One of my WCK friends was told by his sifu (who I think is one of the rare, good ones) that - to paraphrase- “I can teach you the method but I can’t teach you to use it, it is up to you to learn to use it.”

And, he’s right. We can’t learn to fight with our WCK from our sifu (even if they can) because we learn to fight by fighting – it is your sparring partners that teach you how to apply your WCK, not your sifu (unless he’s your sparring partner).

If anyone knows the WCK curriculum, they are qualified to teach it.

BTW, when do you want me to book your ticket to visit Phil? :wink:

You should book Phil to here instead. And, btw, I’m still waiting for you to pay me a visit. Too bad you had to cancel. :slight_smile:

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So, you say a teacher is qualified to teach if they know the curriculum, but they don’t have to be able to perform, or as you say “can’t do it” themselves?? Seriously? I feel sorry for your students. And now it makes perfect sense why you admit your skill is low.

So now you don’t have the time in your busy schedule of posting on forums to go visit Phil and prove him wrong and show him how to do it right? Won’t cost you a cent either, all you have to do is get on a plane big guy.. but now he has to come to you? :rolleyes:

As for me visiting you, it was only because I might have had work there, which didn’t happen. I’m not going to go out of my way for a nobody like you, but if I had the chance… I hope we do meet one day, it’ll be nice to see you run your hands instead of your mouth for once :wink:

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Mo duk is more TCMA bullsh1t.

As apparently, are respect, politeness and knowing when to shut up, in your case.

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[QUOTE=JPinAZ;987334]So, you say a teacher is qualified to teach if they know the curriculum, but they don’t have to be able to perform, or as you say “can’t do it” themselves?? Seriously? I feel sorry for your students. And now it makes perfect sense why you admit your skill is low.
[/QUOTE]

Feel sorry for yourself – your teacher can’t fight worth beans. You think your grandmaster or any of them can?

Put any of them in against even a low level MT fighter and they would be destroyed. They couldn’t make the simplest things work. How do I know? Because if they are not already doing it, they won’t be able to do it.

Stop deceiving yourself. Stop believing the myths.

So now you don’t have the time in your busy schedule of posting on forums to go visit Phil and prove him wrong and show him how to do it right? Won’t cost you a cent either, all you have to do is get on a plane big guy.. but now he has to come to you? :rolleyes:

As for me visiting you, it was only because I might have had work there, which didn’t happen. I’m not going to go out of my way for a nobody like you, but if I had the chance… I hope we do meet one day, it’ll be nice to see you run your hands instead of your mouth for once :wink:

As I said before, why is it always the deluded people who roll their eyes?

I see, you’re not going out of your way . . . but I should go out of my way. Right. OK.

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haha, wow, that’s what you come up with? Too funny - empty words from a nobody. Always trying to divert from the real truth - you’re full of BS. I called you on it, so you talk about who I train with. Proved once again what an idiot you are.
Speaking of teachers, I have some clips I am sure your teacher wouldn’t want getting out and around, so let it go, you’re acting like a child.

And, we all know you’re not meeting anybody, so shut it. Go sit on the sidelines while the the rest of the world trains, just like you have your whole life.

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[QUOTE=t_niehoff;987100]
It’s a very easy thing to see what sorts of things CONSISTENTLY “work” (not just are lucky breaks) and what doesn’t in the real world – just look at fighting and you see those things for yourself. Sure not everyone can do what others can do, there are individual differences, but those occur in a range of possibilites everyone operates in. While I can’t do many things, I can see that they are possiblle since others are consistently doing them.
[/quote]

So let’s see some examples.. Not of BJJ, boxing, not of Muay Thai, not of X, but let’s see the WCK “working” the way you say it should…

We can observe all kinds of things, that have nothing to do with the subject here.. You say WCK is done a certain way, a way that somehow you know no-one else here does it.. So show it.. Show it yourself, or show someone else using WCK in the context you speak of.. You don’t post any clips AT ALL.. You just shoot everyone else down… Since you can’t post anything relevant, meaning that you find valid I must assume whatever that ‘thing’ is you have is just a theory..

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;987100]
You ask “Is your EXPERIENCE then a template to use on someone else?” And the answer is OF COURSE. You, yourself, do it all the time.
[/quote]
No, I don’t.. I don’t tell anyone they can’t fight.. I don’t tell anyone they can’t do X.. I don’t make all kinds of assumptions of what people mean by “It works”…

What I do, do, is apply the template of the system, art, method that I know as WCK on what I see.. If there is a major mismatch then IMO what is being done is not WCK, not what I know as WCK… I can also illustrate why it isn’t.. In most cases what I see is overly complex, doesn’t adhere to the most basic elements of the system, or outright goes against them.. I can explain why not and also explain what does.

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;987100]
Your reasoning isn’t sound. You can have good, sufficient experience to know whether something works or doesn’t work and still not be skillful yourself – experience alone doesn’t confer skill.
[/QUOTE]

BS.

It’s what coaches do all day.. No they can’t make a student perform but they can tell them what they are doing wrong and also tell them/show them how to do it right, how to train it right and how to apply it right. Any coach of any art can do this… Yet for some reason you can’t…and also make the fantastic claim no one does and can’t.. You say you can only say what is wrong but not what is right, that sir is a giant load of horse poop.

As far as control, you “control” when you need to and don’t when you don’t need to (assuming erroneously as you do that impacting is not a form of control).. There is a time and place for each element in the system, however, that doesn’t mean all elements are used all the time… Pretty simple really… On the surface it would seem any experienced fighter would understand that.

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[QUOTE=t_niehoff;987099]Mo duk is more TCMA bullsh1t.[/QUOTE]
Mo Duk is simple a Chinese martial term for respect. So you say the respect is BS?

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[QUOTE=t_niehoff;987306]. . .
Let’s use one of your examples. Bil sao is in the WCK curriculum. We all know that tool. But it isn’t a finger strike, you can’t use the tool that way. Striking with the fingers is nonsense, it won’t do anything but get your fingers broken. .[/QUOTE]
Biu Sao and Biu Jee are two separate things. But of course you knew that. And I know you read my post where I said that I don’t “advocate” finger strikes.

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[QUOTE=t_niehoff;987097]I think you have inadvertently hit on something. You SAY these things work against skilled opponents yet – and lots of peopel SAY the same thing – and although you put up tons of clips, you never put up one showing what you practice working against skilled opponents.

I really think what is going on is you believe it works in spite of the evidence that it doesn’t – and that is why you have no clips of it working. This is the same thing that is going on when you claim simul blocks and striking “works” (even though I and Dale and others pointed out they are very low percentage) and that you do it all the time. When it was pointed out to you that your own clips of your guys fighting show that not to be the case (only one example in all your clips), you continue to believe your dogma and not your eyes.

But, of course, you and your students can do what even world-class athletes can’t. I understand.

Aa far as my putting up clips, as I said, I see that as a major part of the problem – we should not be putting outselves out there as authorities. If people want to see what things can and do work, the evidence is already out there in abundance, just watch MMA.

And I normally weigh in the 170s.[/QUOTE]

This is one of your more hypocritical posts. You ask for clips but won’t post one yourself. I will say this. If we ever meet I WILL make a believer out of you. No brag, just fact. I still have a enough fight in me to show you a few things. I can still take a good punch or kick. :wink:

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[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;987476]This is one of your more hypocritical posts. You ask for clips but won’t post one yourself. I will say this. If we ever meet I WILL make a believer out of you. No brag, just fact. I still have a enough fight in me to show you a few things. I can still take a good punch or kick. ;)[/QUOTE]

In any such situation I am certain he would want to go to the ground…

Just a guess.

Also guessing that if you did kick his butt it wouldn’t change his position on the matter.

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[QUOTE=YungChun;987477]. . .Also guessing that if you did kick his butt it wouldn’t change his position on the matter.[/QUOTE]
But it would be so satisfying, especially since I’m 62 years old. If he beat me he’d know he was in a fight and he would see some WC.

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honestly i wouldnt be suprised it terrence is an alter of knife fighter :rolleyes:

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QUOTE=YungChun;987477]. . .Also guessing that if you did kick his butt it wouldn’t change his position on the matter.[/QUOTE]
But it would be so satisfying, especially since I’m 62 years old. If he beat me he’d know he was in a fight and he would see some WC. He keeps talking about fighting skilled fighters. Yeah, I know it was in the late 80’s but I had fight with a pro kickboxer bent on wrecking me. I won that fight. It’s not like I haven’t competed against skilled people. No there are no videos but many people from back in the day know me for my fights. I also fought in the Fu Jow Pai full contact events that allowed knees, elbows, and no more than 2 or 3 strikes to an opponent on the ground. This was before MMA. What ever he sees in my clips I can do and so can lots of other people. If he come to the East coast I’m like him to see how we train. I’ll even introduce him to the pro-boxer that trains and “spars” with us.

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[QUOTE=YungChun;987477] . . . .Also guessing that if you did kick his butt it wouldn’t change his position on the matter.[/QUOTE]
But it would be so satisfying, especially since I’m 62 years old. If he beat me he’d know he was in a fight and he would see some WC. He keeps talking about fighting skilled fighters. Yeah, I know it was in the late 80’s but I had fight with a pro kickboxer bent on wrecking me. I won that fight. It’s not like I haven’t competed against skilled people. No there are no videos but many people from back in the day know me for my fights. I also fought in the Fu Jow Pai full contact events that allowed knees, elbows, and no more than 2 or 3 strikes to an opponent on the ground. This was before MMA. What ever he sees in my clips I can do and so can lots of other people. If he come to the East coast I’m like him to see how we train. I’ll even introduce him to the pro-boxer that trains and “spars” with us.

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[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;987493]But it would be so satisfying, especially since I’m 62 years old. If he beat me he’d know he was in a fight and he would see some WC. He keeps talking about fighting skilled fighters. Yeah, I know it was in the late 80’s but I had fight with a pro kickboxer bent on wrecking me. I won that fight. It’s not like I haven’t competed against skilled people. No there are no videos but many people from back in the day know me for my fights. I also fought in the Fu Jow Pai full contact events that allowed knees, elbows, and no more than 2 or 3 strikes to an opponent on the ground. This was before MMA. What ever he sees in my clips I can do and so can lots of other people. If he come to the East coast I’m like him to see how we train. I’ll even introduce him to the pro-boxer that trains and “spars” with us.[/QUOTE]

I’m sure if he was there he would be, oh, so, polite… :smiley:

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Unlike Terence I don’t trash other people’s Wing Chun. The reason why I don’t is because when I was fighting and winning I wasn’t using TWC. I was using the more “mainstream” YMWC. I only used TWC in my last few fights including the one against the pro kickboxer. My point is that is you train something well you can apply it. Terence talks about low percentage techniques and I agree with him. It would be a low percentage of people who can do Jackie Chan or Tony Jaa stunts. The same would go for Olympian gymnasts or famous guitarists. But the people who diligently train for these activities can do them. It would be a low percentage for me not to do simultaneous blocks/attacks because of my training. Of course my opponent’s and my positioning won’t allow me to do it all the time but I know I’m capable of a larger percentage of simultaneous blocks/strikes because I was trained that way under pressure of getting hit hard. I was introduced to being able to deal with random HARD attacks at Sifu Duncan Leung’s school on Great Jones St. in NYC back in the 70’s. There has to be someone on this forum who either knows or has heard of how realistic Duncan’s school was. I’m drilling the NYC class to be able to compete right now. In fact we will be having some more full contact sparring in Spanish Harlem in April. There will also be even more amateur MMA fights in NJ. At the present MMA fights aren’t legal in NY. That might change soon.
If anyone is interested in competing in MMA in NJ area let me know. Maybe Terence would agree to something like that so that he can show me how WCK doesn’t work. I’m always a student and would appreciate his instruction.