Where is the WCK?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
21

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;986412]What makes you think that you need to be “good” to critically examine things? It is by and through criticism that we get better. We don’t get better from a everything-is-wonderful POV.

FWIW, a person doesn’t need to be very good to recognize things that aren’t very good. All it takes is some experience training with good people. If you put in some time training with good grapplers, for example, you’d recognize crappling – you don’t need to be a BJJ BB to know that when you see it. If you put in some time training with people with good stand-up (boxers or MT fighters), you easily recognize poor stand-up.

That’s great, Phil. You and I have a differing POV. I don’t think “it’s all good”, instead I think – and the evidence bears me out – it’s mostly crap. And I, unlike you, do care.

Ah, yes, that explains why you teach and practice things like pressure point strikes with the fingers. :wink:

You care far more about being a “defender of the faith” – the faith being the dogma of TWC (Cheung).

There are all kinds of people “putting themselves out there” by uploading clips. Is that making things better? No. What you don’t grasp is POSTING CLIPS IS PART OF THE PROBLEM – none of us, including me, should be putting up clips. None of us are good enough. The difference is I recognize that and apparently you don’t. For me to put up clips would only be adding fuel to the fire, and I’d be doing the very thing that I see as a problem.

As I said before, Phil, I don’t tell others to look to me for answers or as an example of how to do things – the answers aren’t to be found by looking to me or you or any of us. That you look to others for answers is part of the TCMA mindset and the basis of the problem. You expect someone to show you or tell you. It doesn’t work that way. And, no one can tell you or show you. The answers don’t come from another – they only come from putting in the right kind of work. How do I know that? Because that’s what the evidence shows, becasue that’s how skills are learned/developed, etc.[/QUOTE]

When have you seen me “teaching” finger pressure point strikes? I advocate punches, elbows, kicks, knees, etc. I’m not a real fan of “finger” pressure point strikes in real fights
As to the rest of your post.
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

22

[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;986413]When have you seen me “teaching” finger pressure point strikes? I advocate punches, elbows, kicks, knees, etc. I’m not a real fan of “finger” pressure point strikes in real fights
As to the rest of your post.
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz[/QUOTE]

Ah, yes, “real fights.”

I don’t expect you to either understand or appreciate my POV.

23

[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;986328]Bogdan, the guy in the WC shirt is one of my Canadian students. He helps Sifu Ryan Kennedy teach in Toronto. btw, They have throwdowns there periodically. I think sanjuro_ronin knows about them.[/QUOTE]

Yes, they are good guys, I think they meet up with the JKD guys quite a bit, if I am not mistaken.

24

[QUOTE=sihing;986310]Here’s my take on your question Paul. WC isn’t trained as a style. It doesn’t tell you how to move nor what to do when this or that attack comes to you. Rather you are training specific body mechanics/structures that function in close when limb to limb contact is made (if no contact is made the hit is made). On the outside (where the two guys in the vid were functioning), you don’t need the WC training, although the system does provide you with a general strategy to gain entry. In sparring you will need to learn how to enter and move around at this range. In SD you don’t need to learn how to enter since the other guy is usually the aggressor, wanting to fight with you. What this means is that there is no stand off in the street. If someone calls me out and goes outside with his fists up I have a choice if I want to engage with him. If he just gets in my face or space with aggression, here I have no choice since he is the one attacking. This is where WC functions. It’s not an art designed for sparring, trading blows nor comps. It’s a training method. Someone comes towards me with any attack I counter, so basically we are counter fighters (not to say that we can’t attack as well, we are not robots nor slaves to the system).

We train perfection in the kwoon, perfecting shapes, angles, lines of attack, positioning, energy, etc… so that it comes out somewhat correct when it’s real. If you can’t do it perfect in class your effectiveness will be effected since the training will help you little when you need. For e.g. fok sau can be considered a way to have something in front of you. Someone comes at you with an upper body attack, you raise your arms to meet it, the information coming in from the contact tells you things. The arms raising to meet it, this is an attack in itself, not just a deflection or way to stop the attack. Sometimes the force coming towards you is great, so you retreat while trying to maintain the closeness gained in the initial engagement (you don’t want to have to regain that space, once you have it use it too your advantage). If the force is not so great you crash thru, going for his COM while attacking, taking it too him (putting him on the defensive). This is learned to be second nature thru the training, and is not meant to be learned as a technique or defense, you just react and let the training control what you do. There’s no concern for how it looks, nor maintaining a principle or style, just that it is effective, and if not, you adapt enough so that you are the one in control and successful in the encounter. Maintaining structures and principles, thinking about them and performing them is done while training, you have no time for thoughts of maintain things like this in a SD situation (nor while sparring, play fighting and in comps), your intention is about defeating your opponent and getting out of it alive with little injury. Nothing is guaranteed nor promised, it’s just about increasing your odds when the sh!t hits the fan on the street.

James[/QUOTE]

Well stated James.
We’ve had this dicussion many times, on my WC doesn’t “look” like WC typically and why other system, typically, do look they look in training and fighting.
Your view highlights one of the points.
Another one I add is that WC is not “natural”, the moves and principles are not inherently natural like Boxing ( as an example).
There are pros and cons to this of course, the pro’s being that one brings something different to the table.
The issue is that, because it isn’t “natural” movement per say, all the more reason it needs to be trained, from the very beginning, as a more “hands-on” MA.

25

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;986412]What makes you think that you need to be “good” to critically examine things? [/QUOTE]

yep you certainly do your general ignorance of various arts that you have displayed on this very board proves this point very well my boy:D

26

While I don’t necessarily agree that we DON’T have to be good to examine things, we have to be honest and admit that we all do just that.
We argue politics and the majority are NOT qualified to do so.
We argue climate changes, warfare and history, philosohy and even psychology and are NOT qualified.
In terms of MA, people with no experience in MMA or MT or KB like to argue and bash it, so what’s the difference?

I do believe that, to make a VALID opinion one needs a certain amount of SKILL AND EXPERIENCE in USING said MA.

27

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;986417].
Another one I add is that WC is not “natural”, the moves and principles are not inherently natural like Boxing ( as an example).
[/QUOTE]

I think WCK is very natural if you use it in its proper context – attached fighting. For a very simple example, put an untrained person’s (X) arm in contact with another person’s (Y) arm and have them (Y) punch and you’ll see X perform either a jum sao (sinking arm) or tan sao (spreading arm) or whatever is appropriate. It’s not natural in stand-up/free-movement since that isn’t its context.

28

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;986431]
I do believe that, to make a VALID opinion one needs a certain amount of SKILL
AND EXPERIENCE in USING said MA.[/QUOTE]

Really?

So when Randy Couture looked at some videos of WCK trapping and said, “that’s silly”, you think his lack of ANY WCK training invalidates his opinion? You don’t think, perhaps, that his experience and understanding of what really goes on in the clinch or attached fighting, what is really possible in the clinch, etc. gives him the ability to look at some martial art or technique or whatever and give a valid opinion?

By that reasoning, the only people who could valid opinions on the effectiveness of aikido, its techniques, and its training would be people who practiced aikido.

The reality is that to say how things do work in an art that you need to have good skill and experience, but you don’t need that same level of skill and experience to know what sorts of things don’t work.

29

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;986433]Really?

So when Randy Couture looked at some videos of WCK trapping and said, “that’s silly”, you think his lack of ANY WCK training invalidates his opinion? You don’t think, perhaps, that his experience and understanding of what really goes on in the clinch or attached fighting, what is really possible in the clinch, etc. gives him the ability to look at some martial art or technique or whatever and give a valid opinion?

By that reasoning, the only people who could valid opinions on the effectiveness of aikido, its techniques, and its training would be people who practiced aikido.

The reality is that to say how things do work in an art that you need to have good skill and experience, but you don’t need that same level of skill and experience to know what sorts of things don’t work.[/QUOTE]

this is a bad comparison i can find bad or silly videos of any art online

thanks for playing try again

30

[QUOTE=goju;986434]this is a bad comparison i can find bad or silly videos of any art online

thanks for playing try again[/QUOTE]

It’s not the videos themselves – it is what is shown in the videos (the techniques). In other words, it isn’t just that the demonstration was poorly done, it was that the very “concept” behind the demonstration won’t work and is silly.

If anyone wants to see what sorts of things work in fights, then simply look at fights – you’ll see for yourself. As I said in another thread, if you aren’t teaching/training those things you already see occuring in sparring/fighting then you are training to fail.

31

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;986433]Really?

So when Randy Couture looked at some videos of WCK trapping and said, “that’s silly”, you think his lack of ANY WCK training invalidates his opinion? You don’t think, perhaps, that his experience and understanding of what really goes on in the clinch or attached fighting, what is really possible in the clinch, etc. gives him the ability to look at some martial art or technique or whatever and give a valid opinion?

By that reasoning, the only people who could valid opinions on the effectiveness of aikido, its techniques, and its training would be people who practiced aikido.

The reality is that to say how things do work in an art that you need to have good skill and experience, but you don’t need that same level of skill and experience to know what sorts of things don’t work.[/QUOTE]

I am sure that when BJJ came out and people saw “guard pulling” and shoots THEY said to themselves, “That’s silly !”.

32

[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;986356]Because it isn’t your world. :cool:
No one said he was doing WC in that clip. I do Fu Jow Pai in my WC shirt. I skip rope in my WC shirt. So what??? You just have a need to gripe about what others do. I think it gives you a feeling of superiority or something and that’s sad.[/QUOTE]

EXACTLY!! Without context, why is this clip even worth talking about?

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[QUOTE=t_niehoff;986436]It’s not the videos themselves – it is what is shown in the videos (the techniques). In other words, it isn’t just that the demonstration was poorly done, it was that the very “concept” behind the demonstration won’t work and is silly.

If anyone wants to see what sorts of things work in fights, then simply look at fights – you’ll see for yourself. As I said in another thread, if you aren’t teaching/training those things you already see occuring in sparring/fighting then you are training to fail.[/QUOTE]
and you know this how? were you there with randy watching the vid and do you know exactly what he saw and who was demonstrating ?

34

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;986437]I am sure that when BJJ came out and people saw “guard pulling” and shoots THEY said to themselves, “That’s silly !”.[/QUOTE]

Except you can see “guard pulling” and shoots WORKING in fighting – you don’t need to be skillful to see that for yourself. Of course, there are still people who think those things are silly – and they keep their heads buried in the sand.

There is all kinds of nonsense that we all KNOW, unless we are deluded, simply won’t work. Do I really need to study Dillman’s one-touch knockout method to know it won’t work? How can we know that without studying his method or being particularly skillful?

If anyone (1) takes off their dogmatic blinders and (2) does a sufficient amount of hard sparring, they can easily get a very good idea of what things simply have no to little chance of working. They don’t have to be good to know.

35

[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;986440]EXACTLY!! Without context, why is this clip even worth talking about?[/QUOTE]

OK, try to follow this –

We have a tape put up on youtube under the heading “Wing Chun Toronto_6”, which suggests that you are about to see something pertaining to WCK, right?

The description of the video is “Sifu Bogdan (in black), light sparring with pro MMA fighter.” The mention of “sifu” and the fact he is wearing a WCK logo (together with the heading of the tape) all suggest we are being shown a WCK sifu/fighter versus a pro MMA fighter.

I think most people would expect in that case to see a WCK sifu using WCK in his sparring, particularly when the WCK connnection is highlighted (the name ofthe clip,the sifu title, the WCK logo, etc.).

And nothing is mentioned – until a user comment is made about “that not being WCK” (gee, I guess I’mnot the only one) – about Bogdon not using WCK or simply kickboxing.

Granted, I had concluded that this video was meant to be some example of WCK in action. It hadn’t occurred to me that someone would label the tape as WCK, describe it as a WCK sifu sparring, but really only mean (or so they say) to be a tape of someone kickboxing. I guess I missed the significance of labeling the tape “wing chun” and mentioning that the person sparring is a WCK sifu when those details have absolutely no bearing on the tape.

36

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;986451]Except you can see “guard pulling” and shoots WORKING in fighting – you don’t need to be skillful to see that for yourself. Of course, there are still people who think those things are silly – and they keep their heads buried in the sand.

There is all kinds of nonsense that we all KNOW, unless we are deluded, simply won’t work. Do I really need to study Dillman’s one-touch knockout method to know it won’t work? How can we know that without studying his method or being particularly skillful?

If anyone (1) takes off their dogmatic blinders and (2) does a sufficient amount of hard sparring, they can easily get a very good idea of what things simply have no to little chance of working. They don’t have to be good to know.[/QUOTE]

again your using absolutely rediculous examples to excuse your constant ignorance on various martial art styles you might as well start talking about sanjuros ethiopian sumo next

37

when i asked my friends they all said wing chun is dirty fighting + speed and the butterfly knife was the main focus not fists

that makes sense if u try to fight against western boxing which is just as old and advanced plus todays modern training and understanding of biomechanis nutrition and max body performance

western boxing has been around for a few hundred years and if u think somehow they are inferior to 120 pound chinese fishermen boxing created on the remote borders of china, which nobody outside fosan even heard of until 40 years ago, then cool

38

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;986457]OK, try to follow this –

We have a tape put up on youtube under the heading “Wing Chun Toronto_6”, which suggests that you are about to see something pertaining to WCK, right?

The description of the video is “Sifu Bogdan (in black), light sparring with pro MMA fighter.” The mention of “sifu” and the fact he is wearing a WCK logo (together with the heading of the tape) all suggest we are being shown a WCK sifu/fighter versus a pro MMA fighter.

I think most people would expect in that case to see a WCK sifu using WCK in his sparring, particularly when the WCK connnection is highlighted (the name ofthe clip,the sifu title, the WCK logo, etc.).

And nothing is mentioned – until a user comment is made about “that not being WCK” (gee, I guess I’mnot the only one) – about Bogdon not using WCK or simply kickboxing.

Granted, I had concluded that this video was meant to be some example of WCK in action. It hadn’t occurred to me that someone would label the tape as WCK, describe it as a WCK sifu sparring, but really only mean (or so they say) to be a tape of someone kickboxing. I guess I missed the significance of labeling the tape “wing chun” and mentioning that the person sparring is a WCK sifu when those details have absolutely no bearing on the tape.[/QUOTE]

You’re so full of it. No matter what the video is titled, you’d find an issue with it. You have a personal issue with Phil, and it’s obvious every time you post here saying things like he doesn’t know how to teach, his videos are crapp, what he does won’t work, etc. So, you constantly troll his videos and try to knock what he and everyone he’s associated with are doing. Same goes for how you act towards just about everyone else here.
I’d like to see you prove that phil and his guys don’t know what they are doing and can’t fight - personally. I’d love to see T in action cleaning up the WC world physically. Tape it too! Now that would be a great video!! :eek:
I’ll personally buy the plane ticket.

And here you are, making such a big deal out of nothing. You really are sad.
Bogdon wanted to do some light sparring as a kickboxer with a pro. I’m sure he didn’t stop to say “wait, I should change my shirt. I wouldn’t want to have this video show up on a WC youtube channel and have people, and most importantly, the Great T, think this is how I do WC!!”
Followed with “Oh krap, forget the experience of sparring as a kickboxer with a pro altogether- I should only be doing WCK on tape since I hold a ‘sifu’ title!!”. :rolleyes:

So, Phil labeled it WC - who friggin cares! (well, besides you). Here we have a video of a guy light sparring with ‘someone good’ as you say we should all do, and you still find faults - with t-shirts and labels!
I know you’re going to whine like a little girl, but I’m going to say it - you’re a friggin idiot.

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[QUOTE=JPinAZ;986486]You’re so full of it. No matter what the video is titled, you’d find an issue with it. You have a personal issue with Phil, and it’s obvious every time you post here saying things like he doesn’t know how to teach, his videos are crapp, what he does won’t work, etc. So, you constantly troll his videos and try to knock what he and everyone he’s associated with are doing. Same goes for how you act towards just about everyone else here.
I’d like to see you prove that phil and his guys don’t know what they are doing and can’t fight - personally. I’d love to see T in action cleaning up the WC world physically. Tape it too! Now that would be a great video!! :eek:
I’ll personally buy the plane ticket.
[/QUOTE]

Speaking of personal issues . . .

And here you are, making such a big deal out of nothing. You really are sad.
Bogdon wanted to do some light sparring as a kickboxer with a pro. I’m sure he didn’t stop to say “wait, I should change my shirt. I wouldn’t want to have this video show up on a WC youtube channel and have people, and most importantly, the Great T, think this is how I do WC!!”
Followed with “Oh krap, forget the experience of sparring as a kickboxer with a pro altogether- I should only be doing WCK on tape since I hold a ‘sifu’ title!!”. :rolleyes:

As I said, that’s great – but the description of the tape doesn’t say THAT nor does it suggest THAT. It all suggests something else. Just like Phil’s tape labeled “training with boxers”. It’s not a big deal, but I don’t think it is being honest.

So, Phil labeled it WC - who friggin cares! (well, besides you). Here we have a video of a guy light sparring with ‘someone good’ as you say we should all do, and you still find faults - with t-shirts and labels!
I know you’re going to whine like a little girl, but I’m going to say it - you’re a friggin idiot.

Phil put the tape up (and he labels it, right?) and it looked like he was posting it as an example of WCK. That’s why I brought it up. I searched the latest WCK clips for some laughs and that came up on the search. I thought he was using it as an example of WCK because of how the clip was labeled and described (by him) --and it came up on a search for wing chun clips. Now he says that it wasn’t an example of WCK. OK, fine. So I said that his labeling and description was misleading – that it could give people the wrong impression. You’ll notice the other commentators or other people on the forum, including you, didin’t say “hey, I don’t think that’s meant to be a WCK clip”.

Why does this matter? Well, it matters if you want your viewers to know what they are viewing, that it isn’t meant to be WCK for example.

40

I don’t expect you to either understand or appreciate my POV.

Your POV is understood, though better expressed by your predecessors and betters in the MA’s you advocate.

The sledgehammer finesse with which you persist on incessantly ramming it home, your dogged persistence in making mountains out of molehills and your poorly disguised attacks on forum members like Phil are (some of) the reasons your presence here is, um, underappreciated.

If the training methods you advocate work, they should work for you. All evidence is that you have so far failed in managing to demonstrate any competence in fighting whatsoever, thus making your arguments questionable. That’s why you are continually challenged to put up or shut up. I vote for the second option (shutting up), but that seems unlikely.