I’d classify it as a drill, but since person B isn’t performing fully scripted movements, I wouldn’t say that the drill lacks liveness.
OK, so would you then say that the form had more value because that kind of drill is practiced?
How would you classify push-hands/chi sau etc?
Is the form always performed that way, or is it also performed solo? as a solo form, it would have the same benefits as any other form. Doing it the way you described, however, I can see some added benefits you get to drill the principles and techniques of the form against resistance.
I see push hands and chi sau as drills, but they are very much alive.
"aliveness’ is a myth…“non-aliveness” is a misnomer conjured up by people who have little understanding of the the things they condemn. The only shred of validity to all this BS is when one takes into account that certain forms have a level of specificity seldom understood by the people who practice them.
by aliveness, we are saying basically that it’s not pre arranged. What is your definition?
Originally posted by SevenStar
depends on how you look at it - it could be a fault of both. Definitely the student’s fault, as he could be more patient. But, kung fu by design takes longer to become proficient in than sport styles, which can be looked at as a flaw.
Not that I (dis)agree with your statement, but I’d like to understand why it’s designed to take longer.
Personally, I think it’s just a matter of sheer volume of material. There are just too many things to teach/learn/practice. I wonder if a smallish* kung fu system could provide reasonably quick results. Even within a larger system, I suspect someone obsessively training the pi** outta 1 or 2 signature techniques could be excellent quickly. I’ve often wondered how many old-timers did this sort of thing and built entire reputations by consistently beating people with the same technique.
*Sal Canzonieri once wrote an article about a modern Taiwanese single-form system called Chung I Chuan. Beyond that article, I’ve never once seen anyone talk about it.
As for why they hate form work, my guess is lack of gratification, and too much “boring repetition”.
I’ve met a decent number of people who will religiously practice even more mundane and drudgerous things than forms–footwork, breakfalls, stancework (the ultimate in repetitive practice) or various punches/kicks. Meanwhile, they’ll either ignore forms altogether or relegate them to a minor focus.
I think it’s a matter of directness to the task at hand. When a form is taught, it would be helpful if the “intent” of the form was taught as well. Is this artificially limiting? Yep, since people’ll see the form as taught. Is this a problem? Nope, you can always refine things later.
My definition is based on what I understand the idea to infer as per the people who parrot it as the New Liturgy. 
How you’re defining it works too. 
Originally posted by SevenStar
[B]Is the form always performed that way, or is it also performed solo? as a solo form, it would have the same benefits as any other form. Doing it the way you described, however, I can see some added benefits you get to drill the principles and techniques of the form against resistance.
I see push hands and chi sau as drills, but they are very much alive. [/B]
The form is performed in both manners - solo and checked. I do agree with you on the added benefits from checking as it gives you an opportunity to figure out how to make techniques work properly. I guess it is what you guys always talk about when you say ‘testing it against a resisting opponent’
There was actually an article on the checking techniques we use in IKF in February 2003. The article was written by Sifu John Graham who is a sifu under our lineage, and was titled “The 3 strategies of San Chin”.
Originally posted by fragbot
Even within a larger system, I suspect someone obsessively training the pi** outta 1 or 2 signature techniques could be excellent quickly. I’ve often wondered how many old-timers did this sort of thing and built entire reputations by consistently beating people with the same technique.
AFAIK, there were quiet a few masters that were renowned for using 1 move to end their fights.
Yang Lu Chan (Yang TJQ) being one of those.
When a form is taught, it would be helpful if the “intent” of the form was taught as well. Is this artificially limiting? Yep, since people’ll see the form as taught. Is this a problem? Nope, you can always refine things later.
Can you define “intent” here, do you mean specific/fixed martial applications if so I might disagree.
Cheers.
Originally posted by fragbot
[B]
I’ve met a decent number of people who will religiously practice even more mundane and drudgerous things than forms–footwork, breakfalls, stancework (the ultimate in repetitive practice) or various punches/kicks. Meanwhile, they’ll either ignore forms altogether or relegate them to a minor focus.
[/B]
As have I - I’m one of them. I practice breakfalls, shrimping, basic drills, etc. like there’s no tomorrow. Most of the people I know however, don’t fall into that category.
Originally posted by joedoe
[B]
The form is performed in both manners - solo and checked. I do agree with you on the added benefits from checking as it gives you an opportunity to figure out how to make techniques work properly. I guess it is what you guys always talk about when you say ‘testing it against a resisting opponent’
There was actually an article on the checking techniques we use in IKF in February 2003. The article was written by Sifu John Graham who is a sifu under our lineage, and was titled “The 3 strategies of San Chin”. [/B]
Is that available online, or would I have to order a back issue?
Originally posted by fragbot
[B]
I suspect someone obsessively training the pi** outta 1 or 2 signature techniques could be excellent quickly. I’ve often wondered how many old-timers did this sort of thing and built entire reputations by consistently beating people with the same technique.
[/B]
The avg. Judoka does that. There are over 60 throws, but of course, trying to master them ALL and compete with them would take too long, and you would likely never master them all anyway. most guys have a croe set of throws - maybe eight or so (one throw in each direction) that they are very good at, and within that set, 2 or 3 that they try to master.
ive heard this 5 monks story as well - things are easy and quicker to learn… with wing chun i dont think so - dunno about others :eek: Wing chun is similar to taijiquan in some respects as it takes a lot of precision, relaxation, and listening to the body… this is how you learn about structure and how to develop power. Thats why we have forms like Siu Lim Tao.
Specifically that form in my school we often train for as long as we can… 30 mins or more for 1 repetition. Actually its mostly the first section that is that long - the last 2 are faster. Why? Surely thats far too long? its to develop a foundation, like stance training. Its to develop muscle and body memory as well as correct structure so that when the sh|t hits the fan we keep a workable structure. its to develop our positioning so its hard for people to get thru to our centre. Its to develop relaxation in our posture so we can “listen” correctly and use energy much faster.
Even from that alone there are so many things you can work on for a lifetime! Then we have to learn how to use them properly with a partner and develop them more in chi sau and application training.
Theres a LOT of work there even though its a “small” system with 3 very short unarmed forms, a dummy form and 2 simple weapons forms.
just my £0.02
dawood
Just a question
Someone, possibly kung lek, said ‘we train for yi, not gung’. I wasn’t exactly sure of the translations here.
For myself, I train yi and gung as opposed to faat… for us, this translates to training intention and skill, not techniques. Is this just a linguistic, northern vs. southern thing? or something deeper?
I spend a great deal of time on stance work and form, drills and resistance with drills. ‘Smaller’ arts can be found within larger ones, esp. with 5 element fist, etc. some masters were known for their excellence with just 1 or 2 fists within that. I tend to think that some arts, including wing chun, were ‘blown up’ versions of minor arts, things that became arts on their own. Encyclopedic knowledge is great, just so you know all of it with that same thoroughness, IMO.
sevenstar
[i]
Originally posted by Oso
so, I guess I disagree with that generalization. You read a lot of mma guys opinions around here but I think they represent a minority of westerners who are studying martial arts.
I dunno… Alot of the Americans I know that study traditional styles hate forms too. Of the ones I know that do like them, NONE of them would be content with only learning like one form per year or whatever.
[/i]
wasn’t jabbing at mma guys. If you don’t like forms, don’t study a style that has them. If you like forms, find a style that has them.
As far as how long it takes to learn a form…well, that depends on how much time to take to work on it. I think you can learn the mechanical movements in a very short period of time. Right now since I travel back to my sifu to learn, I try to be able to learn a form in 3-4 visits. I don’t have a mastery of it by any means, but I can get from point a to b but I don’t work forms to a point where I would ever show it for any sort of judgement. I am also real bad for changing a form to show application vs. how it was first shown to me…I don’t agree with doing a movement in a form if it’s not at least close to how it works in an application.
My first 7 years of cma study had absolutely no formwork. We drilled and we sparred. Then I started studying a system that had forms. Now I drill movements from the forms. I like the fact that I know forms and use them to extrapolate skills and applications. But, that’s just me. I’ve never seen a ‘good’ school that had forms NOT use them to formulate effective fight strategy. Just cuz some schools don’t utilize forms well doesn’t mean it’s a bad method.
My recent foray into jj has me doing skill drills and flow drills exclusively and I like the training a lot. If you can’t use what you have to formulate effective fight strategy then you are scre wing up. Find something, or someone (sifu), that can teach you how to fight whether it is form based or skill based or a combination of both.
[i]
I’m not sure what is more martial then a form that shows you how to knee someone in the face, kick them in the bladder while breaking their arms/dislocating their shoulders.
WARNING: MMA answer…
Actually sparring and doing it against a resisting opponent.[/i]
I don’t see that as a mma answer. Just a practical one.
I don’t disagree with that at all but what’s wrong with taking that application of a sequence from a form of mine and then training it against a resisting opponent?
The form/kata is the most important part of your arts!
The instructor of my Judo club is seventh dan. As you know, judo doesn’t have Micky Mouse 10th dan and 7th dan is very very high. He is in fact the highest in Britain. I’m so lucky to have found him.
He say every judo throw is manifested from one move you learn, uchikomi. If you don’t know judo, you don’t know what it is so don’t ask me. That one single move then manifest into 12 basic throw. And for each of these throws, he say there are 100s of variaion. He stated once that if you perfect three of these basic throws, you can become world champion.
In Karate sanchin or judo uchikomi or taijiquan, advance forms/technique are there to point out the numerous manifestation of technique from the basic form/kata rather than simply adding technique into your database. In fact, if you try to do particular technique, it will never works in fight or competition. That is why many people state that kata never works. The correct attitude to kata is when you practice kata/form enough, when you doing free sparing, you do some move and realised that it was a technique in kata/form.
Also, one reason some karate/tkd/kungfu practioner are getting their arse kickedy by BJJ and MMA practioners are because they put too much empasis on competition. Most competition rule in kickboxing arts ban dangerous moves which is in fact the moves you have to use against charging grappler. Plus, in competition, you don’t need conditioned fist but in fight, you should aim to knock down your opponent (grappler included) by single punch or kick if you do hard martial arts.
Having said it, there is also problem with obsessively focusing on drill work. Even though some argue that competition karate/tkd/kungfu stance is too high focusing on agility than power, some combat karateka squat too low for opposite effect, aiming to knock down opponent with single blow. If one overdo this there are no flow in transision of one technique to another one, another easy prey to grappler. That aspect, you can train by doing sparing but the knowledge of transition of technique is contained in the sequence of the form.
I do believe that forms contain the secret of whatever style you are doing. Body conditioning, drill works and sparing is there to unlock that secret.
Originally posted by Laughing Cow
AFAIK, there were quiet a few masters that were renowned for using 1 move to end their fights.
Yang Lu Chan (Yang TJQ) being one of those.
Yeah, he was one person I had specifically in mind. Guo Yun Shen and his beng quan is another. A famous aikidoka whose name I can’t remember and shihonage (how he made that technique work consistently, I honestly have no idea).
Can you define “intent” here, do you mean specific/fixed martial applications if so I might disagree.
You could look at it in that way, but I was more interested in the attitudes and body skills the form is designed to train.
~ A deep understanding of Hsing-I would probably reveal that every dynamic and energy movement in the system is in the first element “Pi Chuan.”
~ In most Bagua if it is taugh correctly, every dynamic and energy originates in the 8 mother palms and the first of the changes.
~ In Hsing-I there is an exercise set called 1000 elements. If a person does this every day (about an hour or so) then in a two to three year period they will develop some incredible power. If they don’t practice hard of course they will be worthless in a fight…
~ In Bagua a person should practice the changes and 8 mother palms for a few years and then they gain the skill and body dynamics for power.
~ After a person has a good knowledge of body dynamics and power generation, they can translate that over to other forms and techniques.
~ Most people dont get any benefit out of forms practice because they are to lazy to drill it correctly for the 10,000 repetitions neccessary to gain a correct understanding and usage of the power.
Hope that helps out some
Peace,
Sin Loi
Yi Beng Kan Xue
I found applications / twp person drills to be a million times more helpful than forms. Forms are just an artfully strung together group of techniques. To actually get someone off balance and in your control using skill is much much harder than becoming profficient in a form. If your teacher doesn’t teach you how to fight, you’re not studying martial arts, to paraphrase the dog bros
Re: sevenstar
Originally posted by Oso
[B][i]
wasn’t jabbing at mma guys. [/b]
I know
My first 7 years of cma study had absolutely no formwork. We drilled and we sparred. Then I started studying a system that had forms.
Out of curiosity, what style was it?
[b]I don’t see that as a mma answer. Just a practical one.
I don’t disagree with that at all but what’s wrong with taking that application of a sequence from a form of mine and then training it against a resisting opponent? [/B]
Nothing. That’s a great training method, IMO.