When&Why did kung fu begin to emphasize forms so much?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
41

prana, I’m about as scotch/irish/english/american western as it gets and I dig forms a lot and make every attempt to play them as often as possible and rip them apart to figure out what makes them tick.

so, I guess I disagree with that generalization. You read a lot of mma guys opinions around here but I think they represent a minority of westerners who are studying martial arts.

I’m not sure what is more martial then a form that shows you how to knee someone in the face, kick them in the bladder while breaking their arms/dislocating their shoulders.

42

hehe no offense intended, hence I guess I said “generalisation”.

:smiley:

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no offense really taken, I just disagreed.:slight_smile:

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Originally posted by prana
[B]
I think many Westerners come into MA with the “martial” aspect of it as emphasis. Many Easterners enter MA with the philosophy of it as the emphasis. Hence whilst Westerners takes a year to get strong physically, and spend more time bulking up muscles and increasing strength for fighting, the Eastern approach emphasises more on getting the minute movements right in forms.

It was immediately clear when I moved from my home country to here. [/B]

Dunno if I agree with that part, especially when grappling is involved. You HAVE to understand the minute details or your technique has a much greater chance of failure. In the past, I’ve likened that aspect of it to kung fu.

45

Originally posted by Oso
[B]

so, I guess I disagree with that generalization. You read a lot of mma guys opinions around here but I think they represent a minority of westerners who are studying martial arts.[/b]

I dunno… Alot of the Americans I know that study traditional styles hate forms too. Of the ones I know that do like them, NONE of them would be content with only learning like one form per year or whatever.

I’m not sure what is more martial then a form that shows you how to knee someone in the face, kick them in the bladder while breaking their arms/dislocating their shoulders.

WARNING: MMA answer…

Actually sparring and doing it against a resisting opponent.

46

Originally posted by SevenStar

I dunno… Alot of the Americans I know that study traditional styles hate forms too. Of the ones I know that do like them, NONE of them would be content with only learning like one form per year or whatever.

Is that a fault of the student or the MA system?

One form per year is rapid progress, some traditional forms take 5 or more years to master.

The real question should be:

WHY do they hate form work?

Cheers.

P.S.: We been on the same movement now for 3 weeks already.

47

okok guess I best elaborate.

In the old days,
we did no sparring - no emphasis on combat
we are encouraged not to do weights or machines - no brute strength
we encourage “yi” instead of “gong”
we do forms movement by movement, classwide. Sifu walks around and checks persont 2 person before the next move - emphasis per student (stance ouch)
we do a helluva lot more form checking - emphasis listening

When I arrived here, the teachings were
lots of pushups - strength
lots of stretching - agility ?
lots of sparring - combat

Now you might question the reason to train then for attending MA… but that is exactly the difference. We didnt train to fight or for the “martial” side of it, we trained for different reasons …

your technique has a much greater chance of failure.

see in our days, progress was when grandmaster is willing to teach us a new qi-gong set, not about failure or sucess, with a grandtotal of 3 subtle movements in the entire set that we should practise day in and day out for the rest of our lives… hehehe

ahh I can’t explain well. But Western influence is really changing the face of training in the east too… and vice versa.

48

Prana.

I fully understand what you are talking about.

I spent yesterday 2 hours trying to get the hand and finger movements correct in the transition from “Single whip” to Cloud hands".
Sifu just added a new level and more detail to concentrate on to the movement

Many of our students in the kwoon often practice a fraction of a move for seemingly hours on end.

OTOH, we also get lots of people coming in and ask we we can teach them only the “Hooks” or similar, but skip ALL the training up to that level.

Drives me up the wall.

Cheers.

49

We had a guy come in and wanted us to teach him dim mak. :rolleyes:

50

…so you poked him in the eye, right? The ole stooge-fu?

51

No, we all stood around him, pointed at him and laughed. Eventually he started to cry and ran home to his mummy :smiley:

Seriously though, my sifu showed him some non-dim mak techniques and the w@nker had the hide to tell him that it was nothing special. I don’t think he ever came back.

We seem to get this kind of w@nker every couple of months. They usually come along and tell us that they go around to all the schools and learn the secrets of each art and then leave. Then they expect us to show them the secrets of our art!

Amongst the instructors, we have an in-joke. Whenever someone asks us if there is an easier way to carry out a technique, our answer is always “Train harder” :slight_smile:

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why do people hate forms?

Originally posted by Laughing Cow

The real question should be:

WHY do they hate form work?

Cheers.

In the past, I’ve twice heard the following sentiment from unrelated people with more CMA experience than I have:

 If a guy has nothing to teach you, he'll teach you the form.

I don’t know if it’s true, but I have seen schools who focus too extensively on forms training without giving people an understandable training methodology.

I enjoy forms for their artistry, but they’re dead last in my solo training priorities. Instead, I spend about 95% of my time on basics, zhan zhuang, and neigung. Why? Well, I use xingyi as a martial form of core training (I already know more than enough techniques). With basics, standing, and neigung, I can specify my training more than I can with a form. Long term, what does this mean for my development? I honestly have no idea, but it’s certainly a testable hypothesis.

Culturally, I think American students are more apt to question why they’re being told to do something. If they’re not given a reasonable answer (“because sifu said so” ain’t a reasonable answer) to their question, it’ll seem pointless. Besides training xingyi, I also train JJJ with guys who all held/hold advanced dan rank in various types of karate. To a one, they’re all extremely fit, dedicated, well-studied and competent practitioners. Every one of them also believe forms are useless beyond light exercise.

FWIW, I currently practice two forms. One I like because I can see the martial applications in it while the other (a cudgel form) doesn’t vibe with me at all. I keep thinking there’s gotta be usable stick techniques in there somewhere, but I just can’t see them.

In another non-Chinese system I trained, the forms were broken into 2 types–hand and leg forms. Short hand forms were more like a punch+ (2-4 separate motions) while the leg forms were longer. Surprisingly, the shorter hand forms were presented as the heart of the system’s principles while the leg forms were framed as providing you your footwork. I probably haven’t explained it well, but it made the system coherent.

Lastly, I agree with previous posters. WTF do some systems (in my experience, CLF is especially bad about it) have so many **** forms? Maybe I’m different from your average student, but I’d prefer to master a relatively small amount of principled material. Unless the forms are all consistently structured, learning a 100 form system is means focusing on everything and ensuring you’ll focus on nothing.

53

Originally posted by Laughing Cow
[B]

Is that a fault of the student or the MA system?

One form per year is rapid progress, some traditional forms take 5 or more years to master.

The real question should be:

WHY do they hate form work?

Cheers.

P.S.: We been on the same movement now for 3 weeks already. [/B]

depends on how you look at it - it could be a fault of both. Definitely the student’s fault, as he could be more patient. But, kung fu by design takes longer to become proficient in than sport styles, which can be looked at as a flaw.

As for why they hate form work, my guess is lack of gratification, and too much “boring repetition”.

54

fragbot.

I see what you are saying and this brings me back to a point I mentioned previously.

Incorrect form training is a waste of time,as it results in a fitness & “waving hands & feet in the air” exercise.

Do you apply your styles principles to the form and “listen” for feedback from your Body.
Can the principles be manifested seen by observers, is your “shen” visible, etc.

Solo forms are a way of testing YOURSELF and learning about your own Body.

Tui Shou and similar 2-person exercises are for learning about others, but first you need to know yourself.

As for MA applications many are hidden and many are obvious, where as some movements contain NO application but serve other purposes like transitions between moves.

But I agree forms alone won’t get you anywhere and there should not be too much emphasis on them.

Cheers.

55

Originally posted by SevenStar
[B]

depends on how you look at it - it could be a fault of both. Definitely the student’s fault, as he could be more patient. But, kung fu by design takes longer to become proficient in than sport styles, which can be looked at as a flaw.
[/B]

Depending on what your goals are of course.

Not sure about the exact CMA History but didn’t 5 ancestors create styles that could be learned in 3 yrs rather than the customary 10yrs.


As for why they hate form work, my guess is lack of gratification, and too much “boring repetition”.

Luckily I never get bored with formwork way too many things to concentrate on and get right.
And everytime I think I got it licked, Sifu adds something new to it,

But than I am happy when Sifu sez you have shown some improvement.
:wink: :smiley:

56

Originally posted by SevenStar
[B]

depends on how you look at it - it could be a fault of both. Definitely the student’s fault, as he could be more patient. But, kung fu by design takes longer to become proficient in than sport styles, which can be looked at as a flaw.

As for why they hate form work, my guess is lack of gratification, and too much “boring repetition”. [/B]

But many exercise can be seen as boring repitition as well - drilling, weights, bagwork etc.

57

Re: why do people hate forms?

Originally posted by fragbot
[B]

In another non-Chinese system I trained, the forms were broken into 2 types–hand and leg forms. Short hand forms were more like a punch+ (2-4 separate motions) while the leg forms were longer. Surprisingly, the shorter hand forms were presented as the heart of the system’s principles while the leg forms were framed as providing you your footwork. I probably haven’t explained it well, but it made the system coherent.

[/B]

Sounds like silat.

58

Originally posted by joedoe
[B]

But many exercise can be seen as boring repitition as well - drilling, weights, bagwork etc. [/B]

there’s gratification there though - while drilling with a resisting opponent, you can test your techniques and see how they work when someone doesn’t want them to. with weights, you get stronger, gain mass, etc. depending on your goal. With bagwork, our strikes get stronger. All of those are rewards you will see faster than rewards you see from forms work.

59

Originally posted by Laughing Cow
[B]

Depending on what your goals are of course.

Not sure about the exact CMA History but didn’t 5 ancestors create styles that could be learned in 3 yrs rather than the customary 10yrs.

[/B]

Yeah, RD posted someting about that in a recent thread. In the case of Taizu, the southern style was created as a system of learning to fight quickly. The northern style was the full style that could take decades to master.

60

Originally posted by SevenStar
[B]

there’s gratification there though - while drilling with a resisting opponent, you can test your techniques and see how they work when someone doesn’t want them to. with weights, you get stronger, gain mass, etc. depending on your goal. With bagwork, our strikes get stronger. All of those are rewards you will see faster than rewards you see from forms work. [/B]

I once asked ST00 this question and I don’t htink he understood what I was getting at, but I will try with you 7* and see what you think.

In our school, we have a practice called ‘checking’. What this entails is that one person (A) performs the form while another person (B) performs a counter form to resist A’s movements. Essentially B is A’s opponent while he does the form. This is not a 2-man form as the goal of B is to actually make it hard for A to apply the technqiues in the form. Bear in mind that while person B’s movements are scripted to a certain degree (as they are restricted to affecting the movements of person A), there is also a fair degree of unscripted training involved.

Does this still constitute what ST00 terms ‘not-alive’ practice? Does the resistance of person B classify the exercise as a drill? Or is it closer to sparring? How would you classify an exercise like this?