It shows an excellent example a clip of a wing chun guy using techniques to dominate a guy with Muay Thai training in a no rules standup fight.
What is instructive about this clip is that is it shows what techniques are used effectively to get the job done- mainly straight punches and (gasp!) round punches. Once again, pretty much the same techniques you see almost any time any kind of stylist starts to actually attempt to fight full contact.
What is also instructive is what he doesn’t use- mainly those little chopping backfists, forearm throat strikes, “knee breaks”, and arm holding techniques that so many “masters” of wing chun show in their demonstrations.
It also shows someone who obviously spars, is comfortable under pressure, and experienced in distance and timing in a live situation. All of which is equally as important as the techniques he is using.
[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1211543]It also shows someone who obviously spars, is comfortable under pressure, and experienced in distance and timing in a live situation. All of which is equally as important as the techniques he is using.[/QUOTE]
Is sparring important? Of course it is.
But the bigger lesson is that those who actually spar (especially those who spar outside their system) quickly figure out that they have to scrap a large majority of the techniques they were taught by their “masters” who never really sparred or fought much and never figured this out themselves.
[QUOTE=LaRoux;1211544]Is sparring important? Of course it is.
But the bigger lesson is that those who actually spar (especially those who spar outside their system) quickly figure out that they have to scrap a large majority of the techniques they were taught by their “masters” who never really sparred or fought much and never figured this out themselves.[/QUOTE]
Your right.
Actually, you can probably make all those techniques work against someone who has no training, and isn’t particularly athletic or aggressive. But against a fighter, an athlete, or an aggressive person, (the kind that is likely to attack you in the street,) you probably won’t fare well.
It shows an excellent example a clip of a wing chun guy using techniques to dominate a guy with Muay Thai training in a no rules standup fight.
What is instructive about this clip is that is it shows what techniques are used effectively to get the job done- mainly straight punches and (gasp!) round punches. Once again, pretty much the same techniques you see almost any time any kind of stylist starts to actually attempt to fight full contact.
What is also instructive is what he doesn’t use- mainly those little chopping backfists, forearm throat strikes, “knee breaks”, and arm holding techniques that so many “masters” of wing chun show in their demonstrations.[/QUOTE]
Yep, the WC was fine, though the MT was very poor
But you’re right , he kept to the basics to get the job done
I didn’t really focus on any techniques he used in the clip. To me, that doesn’t mean much. IMO, talking about which techniques work and which don’t is really missing the point of WCK.
For me, WCK is about understanding structure, gravity, proper leverage and positional control, etc thru understanding of concepts based on very specific principles - with the end goal toward fighting with maximum efficiency. The techniques are just a by-product of this way of fight training and shouldn’t be the focus. All WCK techniques have the correct time and place, the trick is understanding these core foundational principles of the system which dictates what works and when (which sparring is a great avenue for doing this!).
Glenn mentioned that the guy in the clip ‘kept to the basics’. If by basics he means keeping it simple by use of centerline occupation & domination supported with good structure, position, leverage and applied fwd pressure - then I fully agree. And IMO, that is more in line with what fighting with WCK should be about
But on a live, adult person there are a whole bunch that aren’t going to be very effective.[/QUOTE]
Sorry if your technique focused experience in WCK makes you feel this way, my experience tells me otherwise.
And great reply to my post BTW - pick just a single comment out (out of context as it was) and give no examples to back up your smart a$$ reply. Good job :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1211571]Sorry if your technique focused experience in WCK makes you feel this way, my experience tells me otherwise.
And great reply to my post BTW - pick just a single comment out (out of context as it was) and give no examples to back up your smart a$$ reply. Good job :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
I tried posting and giving examples based a video showing a bunch of techniques that wouldn’t work worth beans. It was deleted by the mods, so it seems like giving examples doesn’t really fly around here.
[QUOTE=LaRoux;1211544]
But the bigger lesson is that those who actually spar (especially those who spar outside their system) quickly figure out that they have to scrap a large majority of the techniques they were taught…[/QUOTE]
It’s a good idea to keep in mind, but that lesson doesn’t always hold true, and I think that’s the reason people have mentioned that the MT guy was not all that great, at least in this particular video. It’s very easy to think the wrong things work if your sparring partner isn’t as effective with his/her art. But props to the chun guy.
[QUOTE=LaRoux;1211574]I tried posting and giving examples based a video showing a bunch of techniques that wouldn’t work worth beans. It was deleted by the mods, so it seems like giving examples doesn’t really fly around here.[/QUOTE]
Hmmm, I would be interested in which video you are referring to.
Feel free to PM me with the link.
Giving examples is fine…some other things are not…I would need to look at the “video” you refer to in order to determine which catagory your reference falls under.
What gives you the authority to judge others fighting ability? Do you fight? Have you fought? If so by what rules if any? So far all I’ve heard you do is make a bunch of Guestimations of what would happen in a real fight… Bashing WC instructors that have contributed to WC in a wholesome way is not a good way to make your points…
[QUOTE=CRCAVA;1211585]What gives you the authority to judge others fighting ability? Do you fight? Have you fought? If so by what rules if any? So far all I’ve heard you do is make a bunch of Guestimations of what would happen in a real fight… Bashing WC instructors that have contributed to WC in a wholesome way is not a good way to make your points…[/QUOTE]
You don’t need to be a hard nu killing machine to have n opinion. If that was the case then I think this forum would shut down overnight.
If he challenges what he sees offer your point of view and he might be wrong.
Character assassination to prove your point is a wast of everyone’s time
[QUOTE=Sihing73;1211580]Hmmm, I would be interested in which video you are referring to.
Feel free to PM me with the link.
Giving examples is fine…some other things are not…I would need to look at the “video” you refer to in order to determine which catagory your reference falls under.[/QUOTE]
It was the video of Randy Williams showing techniques that I thought were unrealistic.
[QUOTE=CRCAVA;1211585]What gives you the authority to judge others fighting ability? Do you fight? Have you fought? If so by what rules if any? So far all I’ve heard you do is make a bunch of Guestimations of what would happen in a real fight… Bashing WC instructors that have contributed to WC in a wholesome way is not a good way to make your points…[/QUOTE]
My judgements are based on the evidence of what works in everything from people who have no training at all to high level professional fighters. The evidence of full contact fighting is all over the place for anyone to see. On the other hand, there seems to be no evidence of many wing chun techniques working in full contact settings.
That being said, I am open to additional evidence of what might work. If you, or anyone else for that matter, can provide some hard evidence for the techniques that I consider to be “unrealistic” working in full-contact settings go ahead and provide that evidence.
personally I think this clip is more reflective of the alledged MT guy’s lack of ability than the alledged wing chun guy. The MT guy was tentative and lacked lateral movement. The WC guy did what we see in so many clips where the WC guy ends up getting KO’d and simply charged forward striking. I will agree though that the WC guy controlled the distance really well, took the initiative and kept up the pressure making it difficult for his opponent.
[QUOTE=LaRoux;1211601]My judgements are based on the evidence of what works in everything from people who have no training at all to high level professional fighters. The evidence of full contact fighting is all over the place for anyone to see. On the other hand, there seems to be no evidence of many wing chun techniques working in full contact settings.
That being said, I am open to additional evidence of what might work. If you, or anyone else for that matter, can provide some hard evidence for the techniques that I consider to be “unrealistic” working in full-contact settings go ahead and provide that evidence.[/QUOTE]
Ok. We could do this back and forth for days… I don’t have a cute video of WC for you to examine… However I will give you a live example. I’ve been training WC with Randy Williams for a very long time and I’d be willing to fight you or any one of your friends to prove my point and let you video the event. To make it realistic lets use no set of rules, no time limits. We can do it on mats or a asphalt parking lot, I have both options for you. Also no limit on range of fighting… In CRCA WC we train standing all the way to the ground. I am 5’5, 135lbs. I am not trying to be a bad ass here, I’m not trying to threaten anyone either. I’m simply saying lets prove the point or shut this stupid thread down. If your not willing to fight then your words are either in vane or your just trying to **** people off. Here is the address: 694 Sharon Road King William VA 23086. This is my academy address, I am the owner and we can both sign legal waivers before the proving begins.
[QUOTE=CRCAVA;1211630]Ok. We could do this back and forth for days… I don’t have a cute video of WC for you to examine… However I will give you a live example. I’ve been training WC with Randy Williams for a very long time and I’d be willing to fight you or any one of your friends to prove my point and let you video the event. To make it realistic lets use no set of rules, no time limits. We can do it on mats or a asphalt parking lot, I have both options for you. Also no limit on range of fighting… In CRCA WC we train standing all the way to the ground. I am 5’5, 135lbs. I am not trying to be a bad ass here, I’m not trying to threaten anyone either. I’m simply saying lets prove the point or shut this stupid thread down. If your not willing to fight then your words are either in vane or your just trying to **** people off. Here is the address: 694 Sharon Road King William VA 23086. This is my academy address, I am the owner and we can both sign legal waivers before the proving begins.[/QUOTE]
Good Lord :rolleyes:
Listen, no one has the Holy Grail of WC. NO ONE!!!
Each system\lineage\approach has someone who can make things work for them within the confines of how they train. WC is a very adaptable method of combat due to the fact that it is more reliant on “concepts” rather than techniques. Yes you need techniques to make concepts applicable, but it is how those techniques are applied which makes them work. Consider that with the basic similarity of the human body there is a finite method of techniques available. However, the concepts allow many variations on how things may be delivered.
We have several on this board who advocate a particular method or approach. I have no issue with that, however, the issue, for me at least, arises when one needs to resort to putting other methods down in order to promote ones view.
If you have a personal issue with someone then it is best to take it up with them by email, pm or in person. This forum really is not here for ones personal agenda…not even mine
