On another thread that got out of control with challenges, videos were posted up of Randy Williams where he is teaching ground fighting. Here’s one defense to the RNC:
We have a Dave Camarillo BJJ black belt on here defending these videos and saying they represent valid options involving ground fighting in a real situation.
I disagree. I also was kind of amazed a Dave Camarillo black belt (CRCAVA) would state things like that.
Here’s the exact problems I see with the two videos:
RNC - first, the non-choking hand is sunk behind the neck. This is very deep, and immediate attention must be give to unraveling this or you won’t have time to throw anyone over your head before escaping because you’ll be out. second, dropping to one knee like that will be an open invitation for even a BJJ white belt to jump on the back and sink hooks in, thus isolating the body and preventing being thrown over randy’s head. this is completely the wrong thing to do there. even the standard step behind the guys legs, lift him and slam that’s taught as a self-defense to the full nelson is a more plausible technique in that situation than what Randy is teaching.
Turtle Attack - randy starts with stepping on the hand, after which ends any valuable info being communicated. He is teaching a smash first, but there is no contact at all between randy’s chest and the turtled guy’s chest. Thus there is plenty of space for the bottom guy to escape. Next, he shows two “smash” elbows. The first is more normal, the second turns his back on the opponent to strike, with space. This is asking for his back to get taken. The leg grab and smash as well as the supposed ankle break are completely valueless and will accomplish nothing at all. Believing they will do something is downright dangerous.
Now I’m not making a summary judgement on all of randy’s ground fighting stuff. I mean I’m glad he’s at least addressing it, which is more than most. But why on earth he would be teaching that garbage rather than having a Dave Camarillo black belt teach better technique, I have no clue.
Sifu Williams is addressing ground fighting in a Wing Chun format… For people that train WC.. If you are a student of purely WC these are effective options to defend yourself against the average “non trained” guy on the street. They are not designed to beat MMA or BJJ and Randy never claims they will either. Again as previously stated in the other thread these videos are being over analyzed… If you want to be a MMA student that’s great and you can cross train with BJJ, Judo, Wrestling, Muay Thai, Wing Chun etc… Randy’s ground fighting is to give a WC purist a fighting chance on the ground. It should be commended not bashed.
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1212385]On another thread that got out of control with challenges, videos were posted up of Randy Williams where he is teaching ground fighting. Here’s one defense to the RNC:
We have a Dave Camarillo BJJ black belt on here defending these videos and saying they represent valid options involving ground fighting in a real situation.
I disagree. I also was kind of amazed a Dave Camarillo black belt (CRCAVA) would state things like that.
Here’s the exact problems I see with the two videos:
RNC - first, the non-choking hand is sunk behind the neck. This is very deep, and immediate attention must be give to unraveling this or you won’t have time to throw anyone over your head before escaping because you’ll be out. second, dropping to one knee like that will be an open invitation for even a BJJ white belt to jump on the back and sink hooks in, thus isolating the body and preventing being thrown over randy’s head. this is completely the wrong thing to do there. even the standard step behind the guys legs, lift him and slam that’s taught as a self-defense to the full nelson is a more plausible technique in that situation than what Randy is teaching.
Turtle Attack - randy starts with stepping on the hand, after which ends any valuable info being communicated. He is teaching a smash first, but there is no contact at all between randy’s chest and the turtled guy’s chest. Thus there is plenty of space for the bottom guy to escape. Next, he shows two “smash” elbows. The first is more normal, the second turns his back on the opponent to strike, with space. This is asking for his back to get taken. The leg grab and smash as well as the supposed ankle break are completely valueless and will accomplish nothing at all. Believing they will do something is downright dangerous.
Now I’m not making a summary judgement on all of randy’s ground fighting stuff. I mean I’m glad he’s at least addressing it, which is more than most. But why on earth he would be teaching that garbage rather than having a Dave Camarillo black belt teach better technique, I have no clue.
Ideas?[/QUOTE]
Dude, these things only work if the other guy is comatose, don’t you get it, or that he is so lighting fast and they don’t have time to even respond, he can move 5 feet before you can move an inch.
I think he also forgot to tell them, this only works if the other guy is not very good and fails to respond, but my Spanish is not so good, so he could have said that.
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1212385]On another thread that got out of control with challenges, videos were posted up of Randy Williams where he is teaching ground fighting. Here’s one defense to the RNC:
We have a Dave Camarillo BJJ black belt on here defending these videos and saying they represent valid options involving ground fighting in a real situation.
I disagree. I also was kind of amazed a Dave Camarillo black belt (CRCAVA) would state things like that.
Here’s the exact problems I see with the two videos:
RNC - first, the non-choking hand is sunk behind the neck. This is very deep, and immediate attention must be give to unraveling this or you won’t have time to throw anyone over your head before escaping because you’ll be out. second, dropping to one knee like that will be an open invitation for even a BJJ white belt to jump on the back and sink hooks in, thus isolating the body and preventing being thrown over randy’s head. this is completely the wrong thing to do there. even the standard step behind the guys legs, lift him and slam that’s taught as a self-defense to the full nelson is a more plausible technique in that situation than what Randy is teaching.
Turtle Attack - randy starts with stepping on the hand, after which ends any valuable info being communicated. He is teaching a smash first, but there is no contact at all between randy’s chest and the turtled guy’s chest. Thus there is plenty of space for the bottom guy to escape. Next, he shows two “smash” elbows. The first is more normal, the second turns his back on the opponent to strike, with space. This is asking for his back to get taken. The leg grab and smash as well as the supposed ankle break are completely valueless and will accomplish nothing at all. Believing they will do something is downright dangerous.
Now I’m not making a summary judgement on all of randy’s ground fighting stuff. I mean I’m glad he’s at least addressing it, which is more than most. But why on earth he would be teaching that garbage rather than having a Dave Camarillo black belt teach better technique, I have no clue.
Ideas?[/QUOTE]
Finally! Someone demonstrates some actual knowledge about the principles behind this stuff.
[QUOTE=CRCAVA;1212401]Sifu Williams is addressing ground fighting in a Wing Chun format… For people that train WC.. If you are a student of purely WC these are effective options to defend yourself against the average “non trained” guy on the street. They are not designed to beat MMA or BJJ and Randy never claims they will either. Again as previously stated in the other thread these videos are being over analyzed… If you want to be a MMA student that’s great and you can cross train with BJJ, Judo, Wrestling, Muay Thai, Wing Chun etc… Randy’s ground fighting is to give a WC purist a fighting chance on the ground. It should be commended not bashed.[/QUOTE]
That’s kind of like a boxer teaching ground fighting from a boxing format. It doesn’t really make a lot of sense to be doing that. Crappy technique that ignores the basic principles of grappling is still crappy technique.
If you really are a BJJ black belt, one has to wonder why you aren’t advocating for using good, useful techniques that would add the the WC persons’s toolbox, rather than teaching them techniques that will only work against someone who has no clue what he is doing.
You’d also think that a BJJ black belt would at least be discussing the flaws in these techniques, simply to give people an idea of what to expect from a more highly trained guy than just the “average” guy on the street that he is assuming has never had any basic training in how to apply a choke.
I find it interesting that wayfaring was able to dissect the underlying principles to point out the flaws in the techniques, but that a supposed Camarillo black belt was unable to do this.
[QUOTE=LaRoux;1212409]Crappy technique that ignores the basic principles of grappling is still crappy technique.
If you really are a BJJ black belt, one has to wonder why you aren’t advocating for using good, useful techniques that would add the the WC persons’s toolbox, rather than teaching them techniques that will only work against someone who has no clue what he is doing.[/QUOTE]
Dude, it still boils down to skill, no secret technique,
Randy is giving these good people hope and confidence to walk the streets, I don’t think those MMA guys are lurking on the streets, they make their money in the ring not jumping people on the street.
So , its all good right, Randy makes a little money , they learn a little. You can’t make it to complicated, its only a seminar.
[QUOTE=Robinhood;1212415]Dude, it still boils down to skill, no secret technique,
Randy is giving these good people hope and confidence to walk the streets, I don’t think those MMA guys are lurking on the streets, they make their money in the ring not jumping people on the street.
So , its all good right, Randy makes a little money , they learn a little. You can’t make it to complicated, its only a seminar.[/QUOTE]
Technique comes before skill. You won’t develop much skill if your underlying technique is flawed.
The good techniques are easier to learn because they actually work.
That’s great that they are teaching confidence. However, I’d hate to be the guy that had my confidence raised by learning flawed techniques.
Crappy techniques might work on untrained guy, but I’d rather be learning techniques that work against both the untrained, as well as those with some knowledge.
Sifu RANDY WILLIAMS has only been teaching learning and adapting WC for over fourty years so what does he know eh? These attacks on him which they are seem staged to me! Having trained with him and attended seminars etc i can say without one doubt his tecniques do and will continue to work. As a freind and student of his i have the most upmost respect for him and he will have my support always!!!
Let me ask you this too he’s been a bodyguard to the stars do you think they would of hired him if him and his tecniques were no good???
[QUOTE=neil/bidd01;1212421]Sifu RANDY WILLIAMS has only been teaching learning and adapting WC for over fourty years so what does he know eh? [/QUOTE]
I’ll leave it to the WC guys to debate whether or not his WC is any good or not.
However, when it comes to grappling, he seems to know a lot less than your average blue or purple belt in BJJ or your average high school wrestler.
Based on the clips that we are discussing, he seems to not understand some of the basic principles of grappling.
These attacks on him which they are seem staged to me! Having trained with him and attended seminars etc i can say without one doubt his tecniques do and will continue to work.
That’s great that you think they work. Unfortunately, there doesn’t seem to be any evidence of them working against resisting people.
Let me ask you this too he’s been a bodyguard to the stars do you think they would of hired him if him and his tecniques were no good???
I’d hazard a guess that the average star has no idea regarding what is good technique and what is not good technique.
[QUOTE=neil/bidd01;1212421]Sifu RANDY WILLIAMS has only been teaching learning and adapting WC for over fourty years so what does he know eh?
[/QUOTE]
Right. How long has he studied grappling? As that is what he is teaching there. Is he currently studying grappling somewhere? Is he ranked?
These attacks on him which they are seem staged to me! Having trained with him and attended seminars etc i can say without one doubt his tecniques do and will continue to work.
Who’s attacking him? I’m asking about fundamental grappling flaws.
That RNC choke escape won’t work. Meaning if Randy gave me that position and we did a contest with him trying that escape I’d tap him out or put him to sleep 10 times out of 10.
All of which says nothing negative about Randy’s WCK ability and instruction or character or anything else.
As a freind and student of his i have the most upmost respect for him and he will have my support always!!!
Good to know.
Let me ask you this too he’s been a bodyguard to the stars do you think they would of hired him if him and his tecniques were no good???
I have no way of knowing this or providing an answer that has any verifiability. Who was it he protected and during what timeframe?
[QUOTE=LaRoux;1212418]Technique comes before skill. You won’t develop much skill if your underlying technique is flawed.
The good techniques are easier to learn because they actually work.
That’s great that they are teaching confidence. However, I’d hate to be the guy that had my confidence raised by learning flawed techniques.
Crappy techniques might work on untrained guy, but I’d rather be learning techniques that work against both the untrained, as well as those with some knowledge.[/QUOTE]
Techniques might come before you develop skill, but skill makes techniques work, I think you are talking about techniques that demand no skill. Like someone lets you do it and does not counter.
All these setups are if, then…it all depends on skill level in the end, a technique won’t give you skill, only help you develop skill.
I’d hazard a guess that the average star has no idea regarding what is good technique and what is not good technique.[/QUOTE]
One of the average stars turns out to be Steven Seagal, whom is respected in the Akido arena.
You are sounding with much unhappiness in you, why do you go around commenting on what is good and what is bad technique?
Every martial art will have a technique that can be neutralize by another, does not mean it is a bad technique. It is application of the user and level of body conditioning he has achieve for whichever purpose.
i.e., back thrust might be be most powerful kick around many kicks, but if use at the wrong timing and a wrong opponent, you have a lousy kick then, but does that make a lousy kick technique?
Those whom learn extreme iron palm, till their hands are like a swell ball… does that mean that it is useless? Try been getting the first strike from that practioner and I guess the game is already over.
We learn on techniques and programmed ourselves with all techniques, so as it will be applied and reacted upon the situation then and there, where it is applicable. OR, learn many and master the few that your body, your speed can handle it effectively and used those as your key technique in a situation.
Do we not see repetitive usage of techniques by pro fighters? Does it mean that from the day he learn to the day he turn pro, he only learn that?
Should we not see someone’s technique and discuss on what and how and where it is appropriate to use then to condemn it to be bad? Isn’t that how a community should grow, with mutual respect of all and not bringing one down to prove that you are the better being?
There is no one medicine that fits all… I may do well with cataflam for my migraine do no mean that you will be allergic to it.
Come on…chill out and not undermine someone’s work.
[QUOTE=Robinhood;1212430]Techniques might come before you develop skill, but skill makes techniques work, I think you are talking about techniques that demand no skill. Like someone lets you do it and does not counter.
All these setups are if, then…it all depends on skill level in the end, a technique won’t give you skill, only help you develop skill.[/QUOTE]
Skill comes from application and integrity of technique.
The only skill the above mentioned techniques will give you is a high skill in not being able to escape the choke or control someone on the ground.
To start forgive my English cause I´m Portuguese, and I´m a student of Sifu Randy Williams, and I´m a representative of CRCA in Portugal, LaRoux I´m some kind of sick to listen you allways talking about Sifu Randy in the way, he is bad in this and bad in that, why don´t you prove to all of us you are better and accept the challenge for a duel with Sifu Randy or with John?, maybe cause you have a big mouth and little balls, instead of putting videos of Sifu Randy ou have the chance to put a video fighting him or John, and that way you prove to all of us you are better that him, and please don´t evade my questions and answer directly to them, I think you are a coward, can ou prove me I´m wrong?
i.e., back thrust might be be most powerful kick around many kicks, but if use at the wrong timing and a wrong opponent, you have a lousy kick then, but does that make a lousy kick technique?
Should we not see someone’s technique and discuss on what and how and where it is appropriate to use then to condemn it to be bad? [/QUOTE]
That’s fine and a reasonable request.
Let me replace any reference to the word “bad” that I might have used with the phrase “wrong for the situation in which he is demonstrating.”
The timing, sequence, and technical demonstration of things he showed were definitely wrong for those situations.
[QUOTE=CarlosCrcaporto;1212439]To start forgive my English cause I´m Portuguese, and I´m a student of Sifu Randy Williams, and I´m a representative of CRCA in Portugal, LaRoux I´m some kind of sick to listen you allways talking about Sifu Randy in the way, he is bad in this and bad in that, why don´t you prove to all of us you are better and accept the challenge for a duel with Sifu Randy or with John?, maybe cause you have a big mouth and little balls, instead of putting videos of Sifu Randy ou have the chance to put a video fighting him or John, and that way you prove to all of us you are better that him, and please don´t evade my questions and answer directly to them, I think you are a coward, can ou prove me I´m wrong?[/QUOTE]
It’s nothing personal against him. It’s simply about inappropriate techniques being shown in the wrong situations.
I think Wayfaring said it best, so I will simply quote him:
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1212429]Right. How long has he studied grappling? As that is what he is teaching there. Is he currently studying grappling somewhere? Is he ranked?
Who’s attacking him? I’m asking about fundamental grappling flaws.
That RNC choke escape won’t work. Meaning if Randy gave me that position and we did a contest with him trying that escape I’d tap him out or put him to sleep 10 times out of 10.
All of which says nothing negative about Randy’s WCK ability and instruction or character or anything else.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=CarlosCrcaporto;1212439]To start forgive my English cause I´m Portuguese, and I´m a student of Sifu Randy Williams, and I´m a representative of CRCA in Portugal, LaRoux I´m some kind of sick to listen you allways talking about Sifu Randy in the way, he is bad in this and bad in that, why don´t you prove to all of us you are better and accept the challenge for a duel with Sifu Randy or with John?, maybe cause you have a big mouth and little balls, instead of putting videos of Sifu Randy ou have the chance to put a video fighting him or John, and that way you prove to all of us you are better that him, and please don´t evade my questions and answer directly to them, I think you are a coward, can ou prove me I´m wrong?[/QUOTE]
Hey LaRoux, I think you better get your passport in order, things are heating up over the border, Carlos is on to you.