What Wing Chun has taught me

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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[QUOTE=Mr Punch;854376]So James, just for ****s and giggles, would you like to tell us how close your training gets to my assessment of what a streetfight entails? Does it come closer than a UFC fight… or to be more ‘sporting’ ( :smiley: ) does it come closer than MMA training for competition?[/QUOTE]

Neither, I’m still learning the system and absorbing what it has to teach me. I have learned drills that I am now incorporating into the class that resemble more realistic situations, but this all falls under the relem of “Training”. WC for me is very specific training, there’s all kinds of stuff that I still have to learn from the training, also things that I already know that have to improve. The application side of it is all up to the individual. The way I am thinking about WC now, and the way I teach it, is very strict like. The reason for this is because I want to absorb what the training system is teaching me, and possess the skill sets to a high level. I also try to do the same with the people that I am teaching it too. Before when I was training TWC, we did allot of application stuff, everything from standard self defence techniques vs. grabs, chokes, club/knife defences, to punching/kicking defences, up to what my Instructor at that time called Anti Grappling stuff as well. Looking back on this I find that the students had knowledge of how to defend themselves, but did not have the attributes or body mechanics within their bodies to pull any of it off. So for now, my main concern is picking up on the body structure and mechanics that WSL VT teaches. Slowly, more realistic application stuff will be presented and worked on. No use doing this stuff to early, when the body can’t use what you are training in, IMO.

Honestly, I really don’t think about getting attacked or worry about situations like that. The way I understand the way of things, if you are looking for a fight, you will find one, if your not you won’t. I worked security for years in all kinds of public places, dealt with drunks and people on drugs, only a few times was any type of physicality needed to deal with things. I will say, if I lived in a place where the chances of physical violence was more prevelant, then yes I probably would add more realistic “what if” scenerios to our training. Here were I live, knife attacks are becoming more common place. How do you deal with someone with a knife? You run first, if not gain some sort of equalizer, but trying to teach people technique to defeat someone with a knife is silly and will just engrain a false sense of confidence in that situation.

James

22

You mean, “irrational beliefs” such as Wing Chun can actually be used for fighting?

These beliefs are based on my own experience of training Traditional Wing Chun, which is an art that you yourself have never trained authentically and are not likely to train, not with your attitude anyway.

What part of “there is contact fighting training in my Wing Chun school as well as many other authentic Wing Chun and TMA schools” don’t you understand?

Well, thank god for that!:slight_smile:

Well thank you Terence,old boy.:slight_smile:

Ouch!:eek:

AGAIN! What part of “There is contact fighting training in my Wing Chun School as well as in other authentic Wing Chun and TMA schools”, don’t you understand???

Except that you are not really practicing Wing Chun, it is, and on the plus side might I add, a MMA that works for you, but it is an error to call this Wing Chun.

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Classic stuff:

  1. There is ‘fighting’ that no one has ever seen, be it ‘contact’ in the kwoon (which can mean a lot of things) to ‘challenges’ that are always and forever (and quite deliberately) cloaked in mystery.

  2. There are ‘masters’ who could destroy everyone and anyone but somehow never so much as get into an argument about returning soup at a restaurant.

  3. There are techniques and approaches that only the claimant (and always-absent ‘brothers’ in training) seems to know about.

  4. Anyone who disagrees with anything said by these keepers of the vague is necessarily ‘inauthentic.’

  5. Training or competition that is regularly tested and easily verified is seen as a threat and must be disregarded or denounced in some manner.

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It’s just one of those things man.

You always know when martial artists really fight, because their fighting will conform to the task at hand instead of to a single doctrine. They realize what works and what doesn’t, and they yearn to learn more about this so-called “fighting”…so from that point on the martial artist no longer conforms to styles, but rather absorbs tools that make them better in fighting, regardless of the source. It’s not MMA, it’s just martial arts.

The ephiphany that develops from fighting (to me) is that no style, or master, or person is the end-all. These elements are rather guides to get you started, but the completion of one’s journey is up to the individual. One learns to trust not in stories of old, but of experiences of present day…and the performance will be the result of only the individual.

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If that means I bite you, gouge your eyes out, kick your spine… whatever I have to do. That is obviously not legal in UFC.

I haven’t seen many WC teachers that teach biting or eye gouging. I doubt many have researched how to do it effectively.

Maybe french kissing is chi sao for the bite? (No I won’t try it with you).

Kicking the spine? YMMV, but a IMO well-placed blow to the jaw or head is usually the fastest way to stop an attacker.

Bite someone, claw an eye out or turn someone into a paraplegic and you’ll probably go to jail. Even if he started it, and certainly if it was over a barstool, a girl, or a parking space.

MAs are great stuff, interesting, fulfilling, lots of fun. But martial skill is one of the least important to master to improve your odds of survivng violent crime.

Another RBSD vs MMA thread … looks like we can never have enough of those. yawn

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Great answer HW8! :slight_smile:

Despite you (probably deliberately!) missing the point of which one I am pointing to as the odd one out, I agree with a lot of what you said.

The problem is, of course, that it doesn’t relate back to the OP’s claim that WC training provides more of a ‘reality’ focus than UFC-style training.

Of course, I’ve done ‘Animal Day’ style training, which could in some way prepare you for the kind of explosive, immediate, surprising violence you might encounter… but then unfortunately I’ve been in enough altercations to know that it’s always a surprise, and that while some training can help, only street smarts itself will help to prepare you for the awareness part, and that no amount of training is going to change my make-up fom basically a peaceful person (and I don’t want to! - I have lived too long in areas where constantly being on edge is the only way to prevent getting caught out - it was a truly **** experience)

So, that brings us back to the physical training aspect. Through geographical necessity I’ve trained in and visited many wing chun schools and in the usual mode of practice there is little to convince me that WC training is more realistic than MMA training (which I have also trained in - incidentally I might add, initially with the aim of sharpening up and testing out my chun skills). In fact, usually the opposite.

Also incidentally (as I don’t recognise your post as directly addressing the OP’s point), there are only two points I disagree with, but I’m afraid these are points you brought up because of a particular lack of knowledge about MMA training.

One is your implication that only pro-fighters go through a realistic, thorough training regime (which still doesn’t really sit with the OP’s assertion that UFC fighters are not as well equipped to deal with reality as chunners, but anyway…). This is not true. We did semi-full-contact training at my wing chun school, and sometimes padded-up full contact (although my sifu was basically against it), but nothing in my then 7-8 years of training wing chun was anywhere near the intensity of the MMA school I went to. And I didn’t go to any stand-around and talk chun sessions either - we were always hands-on… The MMA gave me a lot more experience in a very very short time of being punched and kicked full-power and what the hell I needed to do to avoid this (whether a supposedly unique chun strategy like moving straight in and keeping the pressure up, or boxing-style ducking and weaving, or how to use the evasions and footwork in biu jee for avoidance and setting up… The point is: I was tested a lot more and a lot more realistically than at any chun school)!

The second one is about chunners bouncing around, which is irrelevant to the topic at hand, apart from being probably quite inaccurate.

Also irrelevant so I’m going to make this my last word on this…[QUOTE=HardWork8;854399]The point (that you obviously missed) here is and always was, how Carlson Gracie sees Wing Chun’s EFFECTIVENESS and his RESPECT for Master Samuel Kwok.[/quote]I’ll venture that Mr Gracie saw good business. I can’t speak for either of them, but while I’ve no reason to doubt that Mr Gracie may have felt respect for Sam as a friend, I also have little reason to believe that he thought of the martial partnership as anything other than business.

You have missed the point, yet again. Can you please show me where I have boasted that I could beat Robert Chu or anyone for that matter?
And why bring him into the discussion?:confused:
Again, beside the point, but it’s based on when you have accused others with differing opinions of saying that they could take on Grandmaster XYZ of old.

Anyway, was going to congratulate everyone on keeping this thread civil… but that’s when I started writing this post this morning before work and the obligatory obnoxious posts reared up! :eek:

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James, in summary (and no offence here), you have no experience of living in violent situations or of violent encounters and little to no experience of MMA or full contact… am I right? Well, I know this is a discussion board and I’ve no right or reason to want to chase you off it, but how exactly are you able to qualify an opinion on the subject of this thread?!

And HW8, I’d be interested (honestly not trying to call you on this) to hear more detail about the way you practice: the full-contact training that equips you for the mean streets…

Anerlich, obviously not enough, cos I’ve still never worked out wtf RBSD stands for!

EDIT! Aaaaahhhh, satori! Reality Based Self Defence, right?

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[QUOTE=anerlich;854582]Kicking the spine?[/QUOTE]Yeah, kick the spine, you end up in the nick getting called Nancy.

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RBSD - Reality Based Self Defence.

Of course, “Reality” is as much a matter of perception as … reality.

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I’ll venture that Mr Gracie saw good business. I can’t speak for either of them, but while I’ve no reason to doubt that Mr Gracie may have felt respect for Sam as a friend, I also have little reason to believe that he thought of the martial partnership as anything other than business.

Yeah, most of us have seen that clip. I think both saw a business opportunity and hopefully respected each other (an example for us all to ponder). I didn’t see Carlson doing any chi sao or Sam drilling sweeps in a gi.

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[QUOTE=Mr Punch;854590]James, in summary (and no offence here), you have no experience of living in violent situations or of violent encounters and little to no experience of MMA or full contact… am I right? Well, I know this is a discussion board and I’ve no right or reason to want to chase you off it, but how exactly are you able to qualify an opinion on the subject of this thread?!

And HW8, I’d be interested (honestly not trying to call you on this) to hear more detail about the way you practice: the full-contact training that equips you for the mean streets…

Anerlich, obviously not enough, cos I’ve still never worked out wtf RBSD stands for!

EDIT! Aaaaahhhh, satori! Reality Based Self Defence, right?[/QUOTE]

I’m more lover than fighter for sure bro:) I avoid violent situations whenever I can, but like everyone else sometimes it comes our way. For me I’ve been lucky to not have many situations where it has gotten too out of hand. I have experience in full contact, I used to spar alot in the old days, but for now the emphasises is on proper mechanics and building the right structure from the training (we do have WC specific sparring platforms, where we can go pretty hard with some control, this stuff I am training more and more). Never trained UFC stuff.

Regarding your comment about me and whether or not I’m qualified to raise an opinion on this thread, well the topic is “What WC has taught me”, all that practice the art can comment on that. I replied to your post because your comparison was wrong IMO, “Typical Wing Chun Practice session” vs. Street/UFC fight. Both are two different things IMO. WC and the application of it are two different things as well, one is a training method, the other is me fighting or defending myself. I don’t really care if you think I don’t have the qualifications or not to make a comment, it’s a free forum, anyone can say anything, and all we can talk about here is what we “Think” about things, as there is usually no personal contact between people. How does one talk about fighting, when all we have here is keyboards and experiences. Your experience is just that yours, not mine, so therefore it’s all theory to me. If you want to talk about fighting, then face to face is the only way to discuss things of that nature.

James

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[QUOTE=sihing;854695]WC and the application of it are two different things as well, one is a training method, the other is me fighting or defending myself. [/QUOTE]

This is the sort of thinking that goes to the heart of the problem with TMAs and why they don’t have functional training methods.

You learn and train to ride a bike by riding the bike. You learn and train to swim by getting in the water and swimming. You learn and train to surf by getting on the board, going out into the ocean, and surfing. You learn and develop a skill by performing that skill. The real training for any skill is performing the target skill itself. You can’t learn and train WCK apart from fighting, as WCK is fighting.

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[QUOTE=t_niehoff;854808]This is the sort of thinking that goes to the heart of the problem with TMAs and why they don’t have functional training methods.

You learn and train to ride a bike by riding the bike. You learn and train to swim by getting in the water and swimming. You learn and train to surf by getting on the board, going out into the ocean, and surfing. You learn and develop a skill by performing that skill. The real training for any skill is performing the target skill itself. You can’t learn and train WCK apart from fighting, as WCK is fighting.[/QUOTE]

This is where you and I disagree, which is okay. I look at Wing Chun as a training method only, not an application system. Like people that want to become a doctor, they don’t just go and set up a practice and begin to take on patients, they go to school for years and years, to learn about medicine and how to diagnose disease and proper treatments, biology, physiology, etc…, then after that they practice Medicine by becoming doctors. WC is no different, it is teaching me specific things, things I don’t already possess physically and intellectually, but the method cannot fight without a person to use what it teaches, and since none of us look at things exactly the same, nor do any of us have the same physical abilities/attributes, none of us will use it the same way. You can gain the tools that WC teaches easily by practicing the forms, chi sau/laap sau and all the other things involved with the training system, but to actually be able to use it against somone else (application of the tools), especially those with skills, you have to go out and spar/fight in a natural way, using your new skills the way you, and only you, would use them, just like no two doctors do things exactly the same way, they interpret their training/knowledge and use it they way the feel is the most efficient and natural for them. Your examples, surfing, swimming, riding a bike, throwing a baseball, shooting hoops, playing tennis are simple actions, requiring only you controling you, and nothing else. The first time you go on a surf board you fall, and continue to fall until you get used to it, as the surf is relatively the same, everywhere you go, depending on the intensity of it. If you fall in love with surfing you will become more skilled at staying on top of your board, eventually being able to surf the wave for as long as it lasts. This is very different from preventing someone from hurting you in fight while attacking them as well, you should know this…

You keeping on saying that the TMA’s lack any functionality, the only way to prove that would be for you to fight each and every TMA fighter too find out yourself, your statements are way to broad to be taken seriously. Every MA/Fighting system, has good and bad practitioners, with people that can fight great and those that can’t fight their way out of a paper bag, that is the way of things as it is always up to the individual and what their goals are thru Martial Arts training. I’ve never said anything on this forum that guarantee’s success in fighting, as no one can guarantee you anything regarding how effective you will be as a fighter (not even your buddy Matt Thornton), all we can do is increase our chances by training in something, and doing so in a intense, consistent manner.

James

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Your examples, surfing, swimming, riding a bike, throwing a baseball, shooting hoops, playing tennis are simple actions, requiring only you controling you, and nothing else. The first time you go on a surf board you fall, and continue to fall until you get used to it, as the surf is relatively the same, everywhere you go, depending on the intensity of it. If you fall in love with surfing you will become more skilled at staying on top of your board, eventually being able to surf the wave for as long as it lasts. This is very different from preventing someone from hurting you in fight while attacking them as well, you should know this…

Physical skills are just that, physical skills.
While I understand your comparison to being a doctor and med school, being a doctor is NOT a physical skill per say, though a surgeon would argue with that :slight_smile:

As for your above example in regards to control, while the control issue is an issue, I think T point was well made, wanna use/train WC to be effective in a fight it may be counter-productive to view WC training as different than what is need to be effective in a fight.

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[QUOTE=sihing;854819]This is where you and I disagree, which is okay. I look at Wing Chun as a training method only, not an application system. Like people that want to become a doctor, they don’t just go and set up a practice and begin to take on patients, they go to school for years and years, to learn about medicine and how to diagnose disease and proper treatments, biology, physiology, etc…, then after that they practice Medicine by becoming doctors. WC is no different,
[/QUOTE]

Yes, I know we disagree. Whether that is OK or not depends on if you care about developing functional skills. We both can’t be right.

WCK is not like training to be a physician. That analogy is fundamentally flawed. WCK is a physical skill. You don’t learn and develop boxing or wrestling or WCK by training like a physican does, but by training like an athlete does. In other words, you develop the target skill by doing the target skill. You can’t develop fighting skill by not fighting but only by fighting.

You keeping on saying that the TMA’s lack any functionality, the only way to prove that would be for you to fight each and every TMA fighter too find out yourself, your statements are way to broad to be taken seriously.

That’s not true either. We can know if a general approach (like the TMA approach)to training works well or not by looking at evidence of results across populations (where are all the high level fighters TMA training produces?), and by looking to the skill-building process that we know from sport and scientific research is required to develop higher level skills and comparing that to the TMA approach.

Every MA/Fighting system, has good and bad practitioners, with people that can fight great and those that can’t fight their way out of a paper bag, that is the way of things as it is always up to the individual and what their goals are thru Martial Arts training.

More poor reasoning. If you look at the functional martial arts (boxing, wrestling, MMA, sambo, judo, BJJ, etc.) you will see that individuals that do the training get functional results (are able to do what they train to do, i.e., fight with their method). How well they can do that depends, just like it does with any sport or athletic activity, by the quality and quantity of their training/practice (doing the skill itself). Contrast that to TMAs and you see the same level of results just aren’t there. And this is true across populations. The TMA approach to training is simply a really poor way to develop skill.

It is abundantly clear from the evidence that fighting skill is directly related to the amount of quality fighting (sparring) you do. And this only makes sense as you develop skill by practicing the skill, not by not practicing the skill.

I’ve never said anything on this forum that guarantee’s success in fighting, as no one can guarantee you anything regarding how effective you will be as a fighter (not even your buddy Matt Thornton), all we can do is increase our chances by training in something, and doing so in a intense, consistent manner.

Nothing guarantees success, but certainly having better fighting skill increases our chances – significantly. And training poorly won’t give you better skill. You won’t get better skill by not practicing the skill.

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It is abundantly clear from the evidence that fighting skill is directly related to the amount of quality fighting (sparring) you do. And this only makes sense as you develop skill by practicing the skill, not by not practicing the skill.

Just to be controversial:

Why does sparring work to make you a better fighter?
Aren’t drills enough?

Not as easy a question as you may think for it raises as much questions as you try to answer it.

In short, you become a better fighter because you are fighting.
But we know that is not the truth because the skills we develop are only specific to the TYPE of sparring we do, ie:
WC people sparring other WC people get very good at sparring other WC people.
One then can argue that, sparring MMA is the key, BUT we also know that sparring in a MMA environment makes you skilled at, sparring in a MMA environment:
Mats, training clothes, protective gear, ring, etc.

Of course there is transference, there is always some transference, but allow me to continue:

Sparring is also size and weight dependant, and as such the skills you develop are based on WHO you spar against:
The timing you develop is based on how you are attacked, ex:
The timing needed to counter a MT round kick is different than a TKD round kick.
The skill needed to counter a boxing combo is different than a WC combo and vice-versa.

Sparring develops a highly specialized skill set.

Skilled MMA fighters don’t do will outside their chosen skill set ( unless they come from a core system and are returning to it, and even then, there is a “loss”).
Same goes for boxers, judoka, sumai and turkish oil wrestlers.

So, I put this forth to you, my fellow jedi’s and Padawan’s ( yes I am a geek, but a geek that can kick your ass):
Perhaps its not the sparring, but all the drilling, that makes one an effective fighter.
We certainly drill more than we spar.
Perhaps if we drill in a way that makes the “skills” obtained in sparring, obtaniable in drilling, sparring, while never being redunant, will be put in its proper "perspective, as a tool to develop certain skills, but not the end of all skills.

Perhaps…

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Terence writes in response to James:

WCK is not like training to be a physician. That analogy is fundamentally flawed. WCK is a physical skill. You don’t learn and develop boxing or wrestling or WCK by training like a physican does, but by training like an athlete does. In other words, you develop the target skill by doing the target skill. You can’t develop fighting skill by not fighting but only by fighting

You’re arguing over analogies. There’s more commonality than difference between the two disciplines in my experience.

Learn a set of tools

Apply a set of tools

Learn from applying your set of tools

Apply a set of tools

repeat.

One learns medicine through its practice.

SJR writes:

Perhaps its not the sparring, but all the drilling, that makes one an effective fighter.
We certainly drill more than we spar.
Perhaps if we drill in a way that makes the “skills” obtained in sparring, obtaniable in drilling, sparring, while never being redunant, will be put in its proper "perspective, as a tool to develop certain skills, but not the end of all skills.

I think you are on to something there. At the end of the day, there is no absolute measure of fighting ability past your ability to fight a specific person at a specific time. Coordination, agililty, power, strength, speed, balance, endurance- these are more definable. Grow them and your likelihood of prevailing on any specific day iagainst any person increases. Drills should develop these qualities; sparring, in a sense, a drill to integrate them.

Andrew

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Drills should develop these qualities; sparring, in a sense, a drill to integrate them.

Taking my “devils advocate” position even further, integrate them in a specific context.
But what happens outside that context?
A boxer has awesome skill in a boxing match from integrating his boxing skills in sparring, but how well will they serve him in a wrestling match?
IF he wins that match (KO), it will be from skills honed in drilling, not sparring.
Drilling = developement of power and speed
Sparring= cardio and timing in a activity specfic event

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SJR writes:

Taking my “devils advocate” position even further, integrate them in a specific context.
But what happens outside that context?
A boxer has awesome skill in a boxing match from integrating his boxing skills in sparring, but how well will they serve him in a wrestling match?
IF he wins that match (KO), it will be from skills honed in drilling, not sparring.
Drilling = developement of power and speed
Sparring= cardio and timing in a activity specfic event

So the boxer doesn’t know how to wrestle and wins on strength, power, and wind, things developed in drilling. I’ll buy that, though it would require a gross mismatch of attributes between boxer and wrestler.

Andrew

40

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;854862]
So, I put this forth to you, my fellow jedi’s and Padawan’s ( yes I am a geek, but a geek that can kick your ass):
Perhaps its not the sparring, but all the drilling, that makes one an effective fighter.
We certainly drill more than we spar.
Perhaps if we drill in a way that makes the “skills” obtained in sparring, obtaniable in drilling, sparring, while never being redunant, will be put in its proper "perspective, as a tool to develop certain skills, but not the end of all skills.

Perhaps…[/QUOTE]

Why not have your cake and eat it too?

I think the drills come before the sparring. Then you have both in the mix. First you ‘drill’ something (like a jab-cross combo) on the bag, then you take it to a partner to help move with it and have another body in front of you, then you spar with it. It may be true that many people stop at the drilling part (or read: one/two-step sparring).