What the heck is Jing?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
61

FWIW, Hendrik, I enjoy reading your posts. I think somewhere, in the heart of your thought process there is something valuable.

Unfortunately, people have become too dismissive of ideas, opinions and thoughts. No need for personal attacks. No need to agree. More importantly, no need to post on the thread.

I may not understand Hendrik, but I am not so presumptive as to assume that a particular way has all the answers for each individual.

Hendrik,

Are these concepts ‘subconscious’? I think you posted a link to Dempsey calling what he did some kind of falling-step jing. If this was posted in seriousness then please explain. If Dempsey wrote purely in mechanical terms does this mean that the path, be it mechanical or esoteric, leads to the same point. If so, what is the relevance of your conceptual framework? If a boxer can have ‘jing’ yet be completely unaware of it why is this issue of any relevance? I hope this makes sense.

Suki Gosal

62

[QUOTE=Hendrik;898177]Ok

Here is what I have heard.
To put it in today’s term.

1,

Jing is a dynamic vector quantity .

Jing means “Force flow with guidance”. No more no less.

Those who study physics can view Jing as a DIRECTED Force Vector which is flowing in a direction in the 3 D space.

Fa Jing means " Activate the Force Flow with guidance"

2,
Lek is a static scalar quantity.

Lek simply means power.

[/QUOTE]

A pretty good interpretation Hendrik imho.

FWIW I’ve also heard jing referred to as a slang word for ‘sperm’, but I prefer the term ‘essence’.

I’ve heard ‘lik’ often used in a pair like ‘gung lik’ for example, and jing often used with it’s other two ‘treasures’, sun and hei (shen & qi/chi). As far as I’m aware the term ‘sun jing hei’ is often related to ones ‘purity’.

It’s what makes us all human I suppose and isn’t too much of a mystery imo. They all help to cultivte our ‘spirit’.

63

[QUOTE=Hendrik;898177]Ok

Here is what I have heard.
To put it in today’s term.

1,

JIng is a dynamic vector quantity .

Jing means “Force flow with guidance”. No more no less.

Those who study physics can view Jing as a DIRECTED Force Vector which is flowing in a direction in the 3 D space.

Fa Jing means " Activate the Force Flow with guidance"

2,
Lek is a static scalar quantity.

Lek simply means power.

3, Jing can be analysed/model with Physics to a certain degree but not all. Why? because The guidance part is alive. That is where the Intention or Yee comes into play. Yee or intention Provide the Guidance or direction for this Force Flow.

4, Thus, Using/applied the Lek (power) and issuing/activating the Jing ( guided Force flow ) are two different things.

IE:

One could hammer a nail with Lek or power. However, Does one activating/issuing a guided force flow into the nail to drive into the wood?

5,

so what do one do when one practicing SLT? applied power to the movement or to activate/issuing/emitting Force flow guide by the intention?

So where is chi comes into play? and so is the so called Chi blast a chi blast or just a phenomenon cause by the guide force flow? and what about Shen? which in the Kuen kuit says " Yee moves Shen is there" or the moment the Intention is set the Soul / life force is spontaneously arive…

NOThing psuedo science everything is clear and straight forward. But if one have no clue what is what then that is the problem. Not to mention, some go even further to become an ANTI party where ANTI CHi ANTi Jing…etc those are really really missing the point.

So, doesnt the Boxing has Jing? sure, look at the falling step what is that? Jing![/QUOTE]

From this post, using this description, every physical endevour can have “jin”.
Which is quite correct.

64

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;898296]From this post, using this description, every physical endevour can have “jin”.[/QUOTE]

yes. why make live complicated?

Call it Jin, Jing, guided force flow… who cares what. it has different names but pointing at the same phenomenon.

65

[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;898295]A pretty good interpretation Hendrik imho.

FWIW I’ve also heard jing referred to as a slang word for ‘sperm’, but I prefer the term ‘essence’.

I’ve heard ‘lik’ often used in a pair like ‘gung lik’ for example, and jing often used with it’s other two ‘treasures’, sun and hei (shen & qi/chi). As far as I’m aware the term ‘sun jing hei’ is often related to ones ‘purity’.

It’s what makes us all human I suppose and isn’t too much of a mystery imo. They all help to cultivte our ‘spirit’.[/QUOTE]

Nothing mystery at all.

yee without Shen or sun is hollow withou life.

Shen without Hei is rigidly dead.

for a holistic complete jin, only if the three treasures are full the jin is lively as a living agile dragon.

Jin is based on physical but beyond physical ---- Alive.

66

Geat, which brings us back to this:

[QUOTE=TenTigers;898293]well, the physics/physiology descriptions are all well and good, but when you add into the equation,“Yi Leads Ch’i” etc, things start to change.
I know from my study of SPM, that I can get good power from my strikes, good ging, etc.
BUT-when I have real intent-true desire to blast my opponent - this is when the true power comes out.
(and the hardest part is when doing two-man drills,doing this and just at the last nanosecond pull the strike from making contact)
When I don’t have this intent, my teacher can always tell.
“No. No power.”
“You didn’t get your power out”
When you play with another, you can feel this intent. You get that,“Holy sheet! He’s really trying to hurt me-That would’ve killed me, had it connected!” feeling.
There becomes a difference between a strike that while it most definately hurt your opponent, will not damage him, and one that will.
This intent, makes the difference.
I cannot explain it any other way. It is a feeling.
I know some of you can explain this in better terms.
So, have at it. What are your thoughts?

oh, BTW-I would prefer to hear from those who have experienced this exact thing and know what I am referring to, rather than those who sit on the sidelines and cast stones.[/QUOTE]

67

I think you posted a link to Dempsey calling what he did some kind of falling-step jing. If this was posted in seriousness then please explain.

If Dempsey wrote purely in mechanical terms does this mean that the path, be it mechanical or esoteric, leads to the same point.

If so, what is the relevance of your conceptual framework? If a boxer can have ‘jing’ yet be completely unaware of it why is this issue of any relevance? I hope this makes sense. -----

See my previous post.
since Dempsey can do it. even he might wrote in purely mechanical terms that does not exclude him from knowing it and have the Jin.

68

[QUOTE=TenTigers;898302]Geat, which brings us back to this:[/QUOTE]

The issue always is what is it and what is the process and how to get there.

If the definition of Jin is clear.

Then

What is the definition of SLT jin. That certainly is not Hung Gar or CLF Jin but wCK.

That needs to be clearly describe and understood.

69

Intent is universal and is not tied and restricted to one style.
I have seen many different methods of playing SLT as well as SBG in SPM.
You can play it soft like Tai Gik Kuen or hard like saamjien, you can do the tan/wu/fook three times section with foward intent going both out and inward, you can punch with power or not. Each method produces a different feeling.
I believe the connection with intent is constant throughout, whether the tension is manifested or not. Therein lies the problem. How do you convey the feeling of intent, in words, so that the student will understand?
Some may say that youcannot have intent when playing SLT slow and soft, but intent is in the mind. The mind connects to the body.
That, and it is not a one movement solution, but only a piece of the pie.
Once intent is understood, it can then be placed into any number of devices.

But, I manitain, No intent, No Ging. No Sun=No Yi=no Ging. If your spirit is not into it, then how can you have intent? If there is no intent, then how do you issue ALL your power? If you are not spiritually*/emotionally connected, then there will always be holding back of power.

*not lofty spirit, but fighting, emotional spirit

70

ging or jin are only words used to describe an action, anyone may have or develop the ability to apply the action whether they are martial artists or not & yes they may be completely unaware of it.

71

(sigh) ok. I’m goin hunting.
I hope you all had a great Thanksgiving.

72

[QUOTE=Mano Mano;898309]ging or jin are only words used to describe an action, anyone may have or develop the ability to apply the action whether they are martial artists or not & yes they may be completely unaware of it.[/QUOTE]

Those who completely unaware of it will not be able to polish the skill or fine tune and make perfect of it. In general, this type of attainment is low level and cannot be evoke at will.

73

FWIW, Hendrik, I enjoy reading your posts. I think somewhere, in the heart of your thought process there is something valuable.

FWIW, many people though that in the early days but came to the conclusion there was little of substance behind the word games.

74

Hendrik,

I asked you a question regarding whether jing operated in the subconscious or conscious. Although you were quite dismissive in your response, interestingly you believe Jack Dempsey to have been capable of jing driven action subconsciously. If this is correct, then it would render a discussion on the nature of jing irrelevant as anyone with a mechanical basis for movement would have it.

For me, this topic has reached an impasse.

On another note, the ‘jin’ (djinn) that I am far more interested in learning about is described as follows:

"The djinn and men feared each other mutually, but the djinn were able to instil fear more intensely than men. The djinns are more fearful beings by nature, but they can also feel such human emotions as anger or sadness. In fact, the djinn benefit from these states, being better able to cause fear in the heart of man. Like bad dogs, when they sense your fear, they will attack. "

Suki Gosal

75

Many varieties pf power/energy usage in wc

IMO/FWIW without mystification:

There can be a variety of energy/power uses in wing chun kung fu:

without much skill development there can be “lik”- strength and muscle usage without deep intention.

With skill devlopment and intent and heightened awareness one can direct their energy for
explosiveness-fajing or bauja(Cantonese) or
sticking(chi- not the general chi-a different term) or
touch listening-keng or
drill- juum or
jek jip- direct usage or
gan jip- indirect or
connect-lin jip or
chung jip- immediate aggressive power

These are some of the major functions that can be performed in wing chun with well practiced and well directed actions using energy in various forms of motion-very obvious or subtle.
No mystification intended but as a way things become clearer with good practice IMO.
Correct structure and motion helps the direction of energy.
Thus many practice taichi but can’t fajing.Good ones can.
Thus I have heard and that seems to be the case. You could use some terms from bio mechanics
but I have not had to depend on bio mechanics texts. There are probably different journeys and different ways of learning these things in kung fu.
Various forms of chi sao, lop sao, lat sau, drills including attacks and defenses, man sao , forms etc
help develop the direction of these energies

joy chaudhuri

76

I asked you a question regarding whether jing operated in the subconscious or conscious. —

What is conscious? what is subconscious?

Although you were quite dismissive in your response, interestingly you believe Jack Dempsey to have been capable of jing driven action subconsciously. ------

Again, what is concious ? what is subconscious?

Add Mohamat ALi, Joe … Oyama… into the list of Jack Dempsey.

If this is correct, then it would render a discussion on the nature of jing irrelevant as anyone with a mechanical basis for movement would have it. -----

do you have jin? which type? and what is Jin?

77

[QUOTE=Hendrik;898319]Those who completely unaware of it will not be able to polish the skill or fine tune and make perfect of it. In general, this type of attainment is low level and cannot be evoke at will.[/QUOTE]
There is only the action, ging/jin no polished or unpolished only the way people use it. Some people dont need to evoke it they may not need it.
Ive often found that people who look too much into the theories behind TCMA to be a bit like art critics who discuss & dissect great pieces of art they can tell you everything about the artist, who their favourite model was, even how they mixed their colours, what the artist was trying to say with hidden imagery. However they tend to get so involved in the subject they tend to miss the whole point that the artist just painted a great picture.

78

There is only the action, ging/jin no polished or unpolished only the way people use it. -------

That is how you speculate and think.

Some people dont need to evoke it they may not need it. ------

So what is Jin?

Ive often found that people who look too much into the theories behind TCMA to be a bit like art critics who discuss & dissect great pieces of art

they can tell you everything about the artist, who their favourite model was, even how they mixed their colours, what the artist was trying to say with hidden imagery. ------

Jin, Jing, Keng, Force flow or whatever one likes to call it is a phenomenon it is not a theory.

The TCMA has the training process to evoke different type of Force flow at will.

However they tend to get so involved in the subject they tend to miss the whole point that the artist just painted a great picture.---------

What is it? Does one have it? which type? what is the process to train and evoke?

If one cant answer the above then one has no big picture and thus will have no clue on the detail of the picture.

79

[QUOTE=Hendrik;898367]There is only the action, ging/jin no polished or unpolished only the way people use it. -------

That is how you speculate and think.

Some people don’t need to evoke it they may not need it. ------

So what is Jin?

I’ve often found that people who look too much into the theories behind TCMA to be a bit like art critics who discuss & dissect great pieces of art

they can tell you everything about the artist, who their favourite model was, even how they mixed their colours, what the artist was trying to say with hidden imagery. ------

Jin, Jing, Keng, Force flow or whatever one likes to call it is a phenomenon it is not a theory.

The TCMA has the training process to evoke different type of Force flow at will.

However they tend to get so involved in the subject they tend to miss the whole point that the artist just painted a great picture.---------

What is it? Does one have it? which type? what is the process to train and evoke?

If one cant answer the above then one has no big picture and thus will have no clue on the detail of the picture.[/QUOTE]
My point is you’re dissecting & isolating something that is only a small part of TCMA & TCMA is holistic it all works as a whole.
P.S. I have been taught a training process for ging/jin & as the martial arts are in reality a physical medium & not metaphysical, training processes really don’t through words alone.

80

[QUOTE=Mano Mano;898372]My point is youre dissecting & isolating something that is only a small part of TCMA & TCMA is holistic it all works as a whole.

P.S. I have been taught a training process for ging/jin & as the martial arts are in reality a physical medium & not metaphysical, training processes really dont through words alone.[/QUOTE]

for any advance TCMA training of Jin
with only physical and without Yee and Shen are incomplete training and in fact low level.

Yee and Shen and Silence are a part of holistic practice of cultivation elements.

Yee and Shen are as common as muscle and bone for TCMA artists who knows the process of cultivating Jin. Yee and Shen is not metaphysical in fact they are daily term from TCMA to traditional chinese medicine to everyday life.

Thus, one cannot use one’s incomplete or unholistic training as a reference or standard.

If you disagree then please share and describe you ging/jin training process and see what is contribute to the different part of the GUIDED FORCE FLOW interm of what is the source of the power, the guidance system, the transportation system, the acceleration system.