Re: What is more important in a real fight?
Originally posted by MonkeySlap Too
Structure or Endurance. Why?
Lightening speed and a killer instinct.:rolleyes:
Structure, the answer is already there.
I am no relationship to the monkey who posted the question.
Uhhh guys
I believe the question was:
What is MORE important, structure OR endurance.
What is MOST important in a fight makes for an excellant topic, but thatās not what was asked.
Basic reading comprehension guys.
Waterdragon
Maybe my sarcastic overtone was a little subtle. Thankyou for stating the obvious.
I like you already 
"I also donāt think you can ASSUME bravery. I know a number of people who āsparā well but in real situations, they freeze and get mangled. "
Iām not saying to assume it all of the time. Iām saying for the purpose of this thread. he was asking about structure vs. endurance, and he gets baravery, killer instinct, etc. for the sole purpose of this thread, heās assuming thatās already there.
Originally posted by GLW
Proper technique is about being as effective and efficient as possibleā¦in short - maximizing on courage, speed, and power. So, similar to developing an engineering system, technique can be viewed as optimization and is NOT 100% necessary to workā¦but it is necessary to work well.
My thought s exactly.
My two cents.
Endurance is more important. With endurance you will maintain structure if you have it.
But without endurance your structure will not hold, and you will be beaten down. You se this happen a lot.
Personally, I donāt think mosdt CMA players condition themselves properly for fighting. Sure good structure can help you put down drunk uncle chuck (or anyone who is slow, stupid or unsophisticated) quickly, but in a serious fight - you need endurance.
After that, structure is an awesome tool.
MonkeySlap Too,
"Endurance is more important. With endurance you will maintain structure if you have it.
But without endurance your structure will not hold, and you will be beaten down. You se this happen a lot."
Endurance to maintain structure?
This is very much an external minded concept.
Years ago when I was doing lots of standing chi gongā¦I also practiced with a karate school that also taught tai chi. It was interesting to watch these people do their chi gong. They would sweat and work and basically endure their way to doing the standing posture an hour. They would talk about working through the pain and tiredness - and build endurance to get an hour.
This is the WRONG approach in internal martial arts.
I tried to relaxā¦use a little muscle as possible, use my alignment and body structure to hold me up instead of muscle. I could also do an hour standing chi gong, but I was not working like they were - for me I felt I could stand there forever if I wanted to. I was using the bare minimum strength and muscle - it was all structure and gravity holding me up.
With proper structure and relaxation - you donāt need endurance to keep it going ---- THAT IS WORK. I can take a push or exert a force on a person without working very hard. My body structure, balance, alignment, and relaxation takes care of it with the MINIMUM use of muscle and strength.
You see many beaten down and canāt hold their structure - probably they are not aligned proper or have the correct body structure. The worse your structure, the more muscle you need - the quicker you tire, the more endurance you would need to build to keep doing it that way.
You may not know what I am talking aboutā¦basically until you feel what I am talking about (the same thing Mike Sigman and many others have also talked about) - you really donāt know how effortless it is when you have proper body alignment/structure, relaxation, and balance.
Interesting post Miscjinx. Would you mind emailing or messaging me, I would like to ask about your experience with Mike Sigman.
Endurance is more important. With endurance you will maintain structure if you have it.
But without endurance your structure will not hold, and you will be beaten down. You se this happen a lot.
If this were true how come you donāt see more Tae Bo winning in the UFC?
Has anyone here been in a real fight?
Sure structure is āeffortlessā - but effortless has a different meaning when your lungs are burning, your limbs can barely move and your taking shots because you canāt move efficiently anymore.
No matter how well coded into your physiology your structure is, you will hit a point where you are too tired to stay erect.
Thatās a fact.
No amount of classroom philosophizing will teach you this. (why are people who never fought in their lives allowed to teach fighting? Should learn cooking from someone who has never cooked themselves, but learned all the āmovesā and ātheoriesā?)
As far as Tae Bo not winning, where are the internal players? I havenāt seen any Taiji or BGZ no holds barred champions walking around - so maybe structure is just a silly concept for mental/martial masturbation? (I donāt beleive that, but there is a lot of evidence to support that theoryā¦)
Nice try though, Count, but knowing who you train under, I think you know the answers to all my ātrickā questionsā¦
OOOOHHHHHHHHHHHkay, NOW I get it. (I think )
MonkeySlap Too,
It is obvious you have no conception of what I am talking about.
"Sure structure is āeffortlessā - but effortless has a different meaning when your lungs are burning, your limbs can barely move and your taking shots because you canāt move efficiently anymore.
No matter how well coded into your physiology your structure is, you will hit a point where you are too tired to stay erect. "
Hard sparring for an hour and a half without getting winded is pretty good in my opinionā¦I did it by staying relaxed and maintaining structure. Not only did I not get winded, but I could hit harder when my structure is correct.
NO fight will last an hour and a half, so I am pretty happy with the endurance I have - not from building endurance, but from maintaining proper body alignment/structure, relaxation, and balance.
You donāt know what I am talking about, so it is pointless to continue this discussion with you. But if you are like those karate guys doing chi gong (work through the pain, tiredness, etc and get endurance) - you are not doing internal martial arts correctly if you practice them.
Wrong again Miscjinx - you obviously do not know where Iām coming from, and Iād argue youāve never been in a real fight.
I know exactly what you are talking about. But without fighting experience you do not understand the nature of a brawl. Once youāve entered a downward spiral - where your opponent is saturating your mistakes or multiple opponents are beating you down, your structure will break down. And the less fit you are, the faster that will happen.
Classroom philosophising cannot replace direct experience.
Iām sure some of my students on this board are going WTF? Because structure is my primary message.
But without endurance, structure fails. Sure you can stave off that failure with good structure, but you cannot prevent it.
If you tell me you are out of shape and fought hard against skilled opponents trying to take your head off for 1-1/2 hours, Iād tell you that you are a delusional individual with significant mental issues.
So - you are in shape arenāt you? Your endurance does carry you through. Your structure just helps along, just like it makes your techniques work.
(Note I did not ask what is more important in application - I asked about what is more important in a fight. In application structure is paramount, whereas in a fight, you need the steam.)
MonkeySlapToo
It reminds me of the old expression, āMoney will get you through times of no dope better than dope will get you through the times of no money.ā
All Iām saying is endurance comes from training your structure more than the other way around. Having endurance wonāt get you through a fight if you have no structure. Anyway, look at the thread about fighting BGZ class if you want to talk about endurance training. And yes, Iāve been in both types of fights and I can tell you which ones last longer. But now that Iām an old man I relay on my structure over my endurance. Of course it takes alot of endurance to win the only important fight.
āBeware the only true enemy!ā
Count,
No fair man. That was going to be the next thing I pulled out - that your fitness should come from proper training.
But you have to admit, there are plenty of guys out there that think mechanics alone will serve them well - but do not train those mechanics adequately enough to make it work.
I was talking to a buddy of mine and he gave the example of the guy who focused on fitness, but had no structure and no fighting skill.
But as I mentioned above - Iām assumeing skilled fighters. Which means the guy who has more gas has an improved chance of winning, no matter how good the engine performs.
Isnāt getting old a b!tch? Iām in a neoprene knee brace today, and I hate it!
OK so I didnāt get it 
But one day I will!!!
Yeah, you guys beat me to my answer. Maybe I am not getting the good āinternalā, but I thought structure and endurance go hand in hand. In order to have good structure you had to endure the training. When first starting, horse and cat and every other stance will make your legs sore. After a while your muscles and tendons become stronger and you can rely more on tendon strength. I donāt understand how you would be able have good strong stances if you are out of shape and first starting out. Now to answer the question. From what I have been taught, structure is more important because a skilled fighter with gung fu should not be in a long drawn out fight. It will be a short exchange of who gains control after the first few moves and the person with skill and power(structure)will get in and end it quickly. Now if you are talking about boxing I would say it is pretty even, but endurance will likely win.
Ya butā¦
Good training definately invovles separate endurance training. Endurance comes in many flavors too. Stamina, energy, explosive and released over time. I donāt think standing will build the kind of endurance to last the distance against a well trained, skilled fighter. The only way to go rounds is to build up your endurance. But all the aerobic training in the world wonāt help you if you get hit. I still say, structure gives you power to give and get. Endurance is important but not the most. Just MHO!
Wouldnāt you agree though, that in a real fight, or what I consider a real fight(a skinhead or two trying to stomp your skull into the ground)that the better person that day wins? Considering our two scenario fighters are supposed to be highly skilled and we are speaking of kung fu, the person with the better structure will be able to get their blows in and end it very violently and quickly. Isnāt that what all of the palm strikes, elbows, knees, kicks, breaks, and throws are for? Now I completely agree that you should be able to take a shot and that counts as endurance, but I doubt anyone could take my, or better yet, a highly trained persons elbow to the jaw or temple.
In a real and good fight, I donāt think that wrestling, boxing, or marathon endurance should make a difference.