Structure or Endurance. Why?
MST,
Please define what you mean by a “real fight”.
Do you mean self-defense, or a ‘fight’ where two people square off (mutually agreeing to fight)?
If it is self-defense I would say structure is most important since the goal is to get out of the situation as quick as possible (and run away :D).
If you are ‘fighting’, then I would say endurance would have a big part of it. But unless you have a proper structure to begin with it would be futile against a trained opponent. With all things being equal, the better conditioned fighter will win.
KG
Originally posted by Kempo Guy
But unless you have a proper structure to begin with it would be futile against a trained opponent.
KG
Tell that to vanderlei silva 
~Basic conditioning is the most important in a fight. If you cant throw a punch without getting winded, you are screwed.
~A very close second is the ability to take a hit. A large amount of so called “black belts” loose fights because the do light contact point sparring and wear padding all the time. They go to do a block and the pain of contact stuns them and they loose the initiative and loose the fight.
Peace,
Sin Loi
Yi Beng, Kan Xue
Endurance.
As we’ve seen from the many sport fighters with bad technique (I’m not saying that all of them have bad technique) and the many untrained fighters that have won fights - in some cases against trained fighters - you don’t need perfect structure to make a technique work. Chances are, in a real fight, your techs won’t be picture perfect. If you understand the principle behind it though, you can make the tech work.
The combination of adrenaline and the shock of being in an altercation can be murder on endurance, which is bad if you are facing multiple attackers or have to run away.
Endurance if you are bad, structure if you are good.
-crumble
From reading the responses, I am guess most are externalists and not internal fighters.
Assuming you are at least of normal constitution (not athletes, may work in offices at desks all day, but can move their furniture without hiring someone)…
Building structure is more important than building endurance.
With proper structure (implying balance and relaxation), you can move faster, hit harder, and fight longer than if you spent a bunch of time getting endurance.
I used to be in karate and we did lots of exercise - endurance training. After two years of this (and spending one summer laying railroad track for a mining company) my endurance was the best it ever was, but if I sparred heavily for a half hour or so I was winded. Muscles started to burn, get tired.
That was probably the best shape I’ve been in while practicing the martial arts. I’ve been studying taichi for years now and have started to get a good grasp of it. Recently I did some heavy sparring using tai chi (and internal martial art priniciples). I sparred heavily for two hours…my accuracy was going as I was a little tired, but if I had to I could have gone on fighting (and hurt the other guy, I needed accuracy to NOT hurt my partner).
What I learned from this was that building structure, balance, and relaxation (SBR) is far better than trying to work hard and build endurance. If you have proper SBR, you are not wasting energy with unnecessarily muscle use and are not fighting tension in the body. This equates to endurance…however, you did not try to build endurance…you worked on SBR.
If at some time I master the principles (including SBR), then I have wrung as much endurance from structure as I can…and if I think I need it I may try to build endurance in other ways. But I acquire so much more right now from buidling SBR that I don’t bother worring about endurance or try to get more.
Besides, with SBR (and other principles) - you’ll hit like a ton of bricks and you will move faster. So that is two more things you get from working on structure and the principles than worrying about buidling endurance.
So my answer to this question is definitely - STRUCTURE.
both yet neither
Both are important but the key is:
Bravery
Without bravery no amount of technique or training will work…
Straight on paperweight…
When people ask me about self-defense…my first question to them is “How do you feel about the sight of blood?” They usually say “No problem” and I reply “Not the other guy…YOURS - in a fight you will probably see some of your own blood”
If they can’t take this, I tell them to not start.
Then, there are teachers who do not train their students to take hits… DUMB. Mistakes WILL happen and you WILL be hit at sometime. IF you can take the hit and not let it mess you up…you can do OK. Otherwise, you will lose the first time you get hit.
You have to be able to hang in their. This is endurance and it is neither internal nor external…it is being in shape and being healthy. Being out of shape and having power and technique only works if the fight ends quickly.
Most do…but do you train to fight an easy opponent or YOUR equal or superior?
Bravery first…then speed, then power, then technique.
Internal DOES attack and DOES move. Being passive only works if you are MUCH MUCH better than your opponent.
Could have been a poll/vote
Structure first, for both hitting and being hit.
Endurance next for running away! :eek:
Neither really. A real fight isn’t going to be a marathon and you’ll have plenty of adrenaline fueling your body for it. Obviously structure isn’t too important as unstructured brawlers can whoop some arse. I’d say mind set is the most important thing. Everything else is far behind.
yeah, I agree with bravery and mindset, but I think he’s implying that you already possess those. I agree with jinx said, however, structure is not a requirement for a fight. Endurance on the other hand, may be, depending on the situation. A perfect example is a shuai chiao or judo player. They work endlessly on proper structure, as that makes the throw cleaner and easier to execute. BUT, if my structure is bad when I attempt the throw, I can still throw you, provided I did at least break your balance.
SevenStar
“I agree with jinx said, however, structure is not a requirement for a fight. Endurance on the other hand, may be”
Only for externalists…for internal martial arts, structure is the foundation for everything - and while maintaining proper body structure and relaxation you get endurance.
GLW
“Internal DOES attack and DOES move. Being passive only works if you are MUCH MUCH better than your opponent.”
Who said internal doesn’t attack and move? Who said anything about being passive?
"for internal martial arts, structure is the foundation for everything - and while maintaining proper body structure and relaxation you get endurance.
I completely agree.
GLW
“Internal DOES attack and DOES move. Being passive only works if you are MUCH MUCH better than your opponent”
I don’t think passive ever works, no matter how good you are.
my sifu says…
explore technique to grasp principle, holding principle, forget technique…
and…
While easier to employ, defense will not win the battle…
It seems to me that the Chinese martial arts have always concentrated greatly on winning a real fight (2 or more guys squared off) through being the more fit or better conditioned of the fighters
While its important to have correct technique and principle to win a fight quickly, an experienced opponent is not going down on the first strike…you gotta be able to roll with them punches and keep up with your opponent–even better if you’re three steps ahead!
and of course, its all about mindset—If you have your mind balanced and relaxed you will react in a faster and more efficient manner than the guy who’s so ticked off he’s seeing red…
Originally posted by miscjinx
[B]SevenStar
“I agree with jinx said, however, structure is not a requirement for a fight. Endurance on the other hand, may be”
Only for externalists…for internal martial arts, structure is the foundation for everything - and while maintaining proper body structure and relaxation you get endurance.
[/B]
Then what happens when you are faced with multiple attackers and one is able to steal your balance while you are trying to deal with others? They won’t be attacking one at a time, so I imagine it would be extremely difficult to maintain that structure.
If you are ever get in a real fight, then my opinion is you better have:
SKILL, BRAINS & GUTS."
SevenStar,
“Then what happens when you are faced with multiple attackers and one is able to steal your balance while you are trying to deal with others? They won’t be attacking one at a time, so I imagine it would be extremely difficult to maintain that structure.”
So give up your internal training and fight externally you say?
Internalists are notoriously difficult to “steal your balance” from. Whether you fight one or many, your fighting strategy is difficult…but if you’re an internalist who has trained correctly - the principles don’t change. You still will focus on structure, balance, relaxation, etc.
Structure is part of the foundation of internal fighting…any competent (no longer a beginner) internal fighter can keep their balance and structure during a fight with one or many attackers - it does not matter. How you move and get your power is from your structure, relaxation, etc.
No matter who you are, if someone can “steal your balance”, your screwed…at the very least you are thrown. You don’t loose your balance…that is another key.
Oops..
Not “your strategy is difficult”, I meant to say “your strategy is different”
Sorry.
There are some strange folks who will claim you are not doing an internal style if you initiate the contact or if you are aggressive.
Anyone with any fighting knowledge knows this is BS…but then again, the statement mainly comes from Taijiquan people. I have NEVER heard a HsingYi, Bagua, or Liuhobafa person make this claim.
I also don’t think you can ASSUME bravery. I know a number of people who ‘spar’ well but in real situations, they freeze and get mangled.
Getting there first - lot to be said for that. If an opponent is REALLY fast, they can make a lot of mistakes but you can’t use them. But, once they get there, if they have no power, it doesn’t matter…so they have to be able to do damage.
Proper technique is about being as effective and efficient as possible…in short - maximizing on courage, speed, and power. So, similar to developing an engineering system, technique can be viewed as optimization and is NOT 100% necessary to work…but it is necessary to work well.