What is MMA'S Impact on Kung-Fu Should MMA be its' on Art Now?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Mixed Martial Arts
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I don’t really see kung fu dying a “slow death”, I’d venture to guess there are more kung fu practitioners worldwide than “mixed martial artists.”

Mma certainly does have staying power as well. Boxing is rapidly losing its audience. Kickboxing has a small following in the US, and there seems to be more crossover of fighters from sports such as muay thai and wrestling into mma…because they know that’s where the future is.

As a venue or as an art?

I’m saying all this as a “traditional CMA guy”. The kung fu community in general just doesn’t have the relevant experience to prepare a fighter for professional level mma. There may be a few exceptions of course, but these are few and far between.

I think that you have a point there as far as experience in that venue. I think we need to carefully make the distinction between MMA as a venue and MMA as a style. I don’t see any reason that kung fu practitioners can’t compete in a MMA venue if they are good enough. Is the MMA “style” the best (ie boxing, muy thai and bjj)…I don’t think so…I think it depends as much on the practitioner as the “style.” Kung fu is going to be at a big disadvantage in the MMA venue because most don’t train to fight on the ground.

If kung fu players are able to use their full arsenal of joint manipulation then it might not need to go there. Alternatively, a kung fu guy could cross-train in ground fighting.

On a positive note, I’ve heard more rumblings as of late, and noticed more interest in competitive CMA based fighting such as lei tai, sanshou, sanda, etc…Hopefully, this will snowball into bigger and better things. Otherwise, the naysayers who staunchly declare that kung fu can’t be used in a ring will drive the final nails into the kung fu coffin.

I think that the preferred combat sport of kung fu will be san da/san shou where ground fighting is not allowed and joint manipulation is not allowed. This allows the fullest range of techniques from kung fu to be utilized and insures that the practioners will be able to actually function in real life after fighting.

IMO, some of the most effective self-defense techniques in kung fu involve joint manipulation. Some styles are built almost entirely around it. However, because of the permanent damage that this type of fighting can cause it cannot and should not be part of a combat sport.

Why is groundfighting not part of kung fu? I think that there is a historical basis for this. Many traditional styles of kung fu were “battlefield” types of art, if you went down on the ground you were pretty much done for. If you tried to fight your opponent on the ground you would get a spear in your back or a horse trampling on your head.

However, I don’t see any reason that somebody couldn’t cross train there stand up kung fu game and groundfighting and do well in a MMA event.

42

They are effective because they don’t require you to be strong. However, they do require more skill to execute correctly.

And before everybody jumps down my throat…yes, if you can’t execute more simple techniques in real time then you probably can’t execute complicated joint locking…so learning how to execute under pressure is still important…you just can’t practice chin na under pressure without somebody getting hurt.

I just saw it yesterday when my Taiji teacher demonstrated a joint lock and added a little too much force to it and just about damaged the tendon in my classmates hand.

43

Good point! Let’s not forget the assumption of “buddies.” I.E. the guy you’re fighting has a couple friends looking out for him.

Now, before everyone pulls out their flamethrowers, bear with me. I’m not suggesting that Kung Fu practitioners have superhuman abilities allowing them to beat a whole group of equally skilled assailants at the same time. However, as (I hope) all MA students are taught, you may need to hit someone to create an opening enough for you to break off and a) get away or b) at least get to a more advantageous position (i.e. finding improvised weaponry, finding an area where they are less able to surround you.) all with the end result of getting out alive and well, even if you don’t “win the fight.” If you are on the ground, entangled with someone, you stand a chance of having your head kicked in, even if you are under the main assailant, choking him from behind.

Again, cool your flamethrowers. I believe groundfighting is a great tool for one-on-one confrontations, i.e. if some jackanape tackles you to the ground, it is good to know how to escape and resume fighting in stand up (or reverse and reciprocate on the ground if that’s your preference and no one else jumps in.) I fully wish to learn some form of groundfighting someday for that reason.

Another possibility for the omission of BJJ/Pancrase/Sambo style groundfighting in CMA is that it simply didn’t come up. Some people have discussed cultural reasons that pertain to this as well. I don’t know, I’m not proficient on matters of culture.
All I know is that in the handful of schoolyard fights I was in, I was punched, got put into a full-nelson, and even got suplexed :eek: but was never tackled and taken to the ground.

Thus it was when I first saw people discussing “groundfighting” I had no idea what it entailed until I did some research. i would never have thought of taking an opponent down and then gettting on top of them. But then, before I took Karate (quite a long time ago) I would have never thought of using a head butt (that’s how I got out of the full nelson.) and before I took up My Jhong I would have never thought of using a sidekick or heel-thrusting kick at close range (ouch.)

Long story short, I always imagined that if I got someone on the ground I would A) give them a chance to like, leave me alone or B) if I felt I was in real danger, I would stomp their head, while still standing up. Needless to say I was surprised by the effectiveness of BJJ/MMA groundfighting when I first was exposed to it., as it’s something I would probably never have thought of beforehand.

44

Not really. There will always be students who don’t want to train full out against resisting opponents. These students are easily impressed by their instructors “root” and “power” when he demonstrates techniques on them while they are compliant in the the perfect position for him to perform his “brutal” techniques. They will probably never know that said instructor can’t actually pull those techniques off against someone who has a clue.

45

And there’s the key as to why it doesn’t work.

That is the sign of a crappy teacher. A teacher with good technique will never come close to injuring a compliant student who is letting him perform the technique in a compromised position.

Too many students are impressed by these kind of techiques. They don’t understand that the whole reason it feels so powerful is that they are being compliant. It is a trick, plain and simple. But it is such a good trick, that often the instructors are just as clueless as thier students as to how ineffective these techniques really are.

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Originally Posted by Fu-Pow
you just can’t practice chin na under pressure without somebody getting hurt.

And there’s the key as to why it doesn’t work.

Reply]
I think in ancient times, these things were pressure tested in real fights where people got miamed. So those who were good at them, got really good at them, and those who weren’t became crippled, or died of comlications to thier injuries. We just don’t have those conditions here in this day and age, so we really can’t get skilled at them. We can’t take the final step to reality.

47

Kung Fu is MMA, its how you learn and training your kung fu…most people just do friggin forms and then believe they can beat people up!!

lol

48

I don’t think that you could get in enough fights to make that a practice regimen.

Well maybe some people could. :smiley:

49

Chin Na is always best as a response in a self defense situation where you are attacked, especially when the attack is a grab or immobilization technique or as a disarming move. In a fight…i.e. when two or more people choose to square off and attack eachother, such as in a ring, it’s extremely difficult to use. The exception is the clinch, which in essence is a “sieze and hold” or chin na. Most systems, IMO address the clinch. Notice, I say most systems, not most teachers! Also, many teachers will spout off b.s. such as kung fu being for self defense. It was designed for fighting, self defense is a by product.

As for ground fighting…why wouldn’t you want to know at least some basic survival ground fighting? A good number if mma fights are won on the feet, by fighters who’ve learned to avoid the takedown, or how to get back up fast. On the other hand, if you can take someone down, expect at some point to go down with them…better know how to finish it there.

50

Yeah, I think we as CMAists should start resolving to learn basic groundfighting. We’re making “MMA-as-a-style” types waste so much time pointing out this valid oversight in kung fu training that they don’t have as much time to criticize the other aspects of Kung Fu that tick them off, but aren’t relevant to anything, such as:

Many Chinese Style Techniques Have Flowery Names (not relevant to their use in fighting, but for some reason MMA guys/gals tend to think they’re onto something important when they point this out.)

The History of Many Styles is Highly Suspect If Not An Outright Lie (true for the most part, perhaps, but not relevant to their validity in fighting or lack thereof.)

CMAists May Say That They Use Low Kicks But They Practice Both High And Low (ignores the fact that the ability to balance properly when delivering high kicks is very helpful in just about every aspect of fighting, including low kicks.)

CMA Uses Bodyweight Training For The Legs Instead Of Using Weights Exclusively (ignoring the fact that One-Legged squats and stance transitions are VERY efficient for developing strength, balance, flexibility, and stability.)

Horse Stance: Is It Really Necessary? (“surrre, I COULD hold a horse stance, like forever, but, uhmmmm… I don’t want to. yeah, it’s silly! Or something…”)

CMA Likes to do their techniques without an opponent (a.k.a- “In the air” a.k.a “Shadowboxing.” a.k.a “Memorization Drills.”) AND do them against resisting opponents instead of just doing them against resisting opponents
(OK look, if you take two people and give them a technique they have no idea how to do or use and tell them to use it on each other, all you get is bad technique and bloody noses- not rocket science.)

All TCMA and TMA in General Suffers From Massive Amounts of Ego and Arrogance
(Hello there, Pot! I’d like to introduce you to my good friend Kettle…)

All kidding aside, one other valid point most MMA-As-Style people have is the total lack of weight training in most CMA. It’s important to develop a good core first, of course, but weight training (whether Olympic, Power Lifts, or Strongman [I really hope to get into this someday]) is unmatched for developing raw strength. Bodyweight excercises, calisthenics, etc. are still better for endurance however.

51

In a country where 20% or so of adult males wrestled at least in high school, and over half played football, not training at all what to do if someone tackles you puts you at a big disadvantage in more than just MMA venues.

If kung fu players are able to use their full arsenal of joint manipulation then it might not need to go there.

I think that the preferred combat sport of kung fu will be san da/san shou where ground fighting is not allowed and joint manipulation is not allowed. This allows the fullest range of techniques from kung fu to be utilized

What?

Why is groundfighting not part of kung fu? I think that there is a historical basis for this. Many traditional styles of kung fu were “battlefield” types of art, if you went down on the ground you were pretty much done for. If you tried to fight your opponent on the ground you would get a spear in your back or a horse trampling on your head.

Funny how Judo groundfighting techniques came from jujitsu, which is historically verifiable as a “battlefield” art.

52

Not really.

Funny how Judo groundfighting techniques came from jujitsu, which is historically verifiable as a “battlefield” art.

I’m not talking about Japanese arts. Funny how there are like 300 styles of kung fu and very few of them have ANY groundfighting. Now why do you suppose that is? :o

53

is the total lack of weight training in most CMA.

Reply]
All Chinese arts have some sort of sport specific weight training, be it the stone locks, or the Taiji ball. That should be revived inour practice. No need to add modern weight lifting, we already have what we need.

54

Yes, really.

I’m not talking about Japanese arts. Funny how there are like 300 styles of kung fu and very few of them have ANY groundfighting. Now why do you suppose that is? :o

I don’t know, but since Jujitsu and Sambo, two of the major groundfighting arts are historically proveable to be “battlefield arts”, I doubt very much that it’s because kung fu is “for the battlefield”.

55

Yeah if you read the surgeons manuals for example of the Romans, they learned an awful lot from the fights with gladiators. People got extremely messed up.

In wars, for example, Vietnam and Iraq, they learned an awful lot about battlefield medicine. The mortality rate is extremely reduced now because of what they learned in Iraq.

Of course, they haven’t learned to how really heal people and make them grow new limbs and stuff, so it’s not all good.

Anyways, why complain about the lack of practicing Chin-Na or stuff like that? In MMA they fight to tap-out, a tap-out is a potential maiming situation, so they got to practice their stuff.

I used to complain about MMA not using realistic techniques, but let’s face it, if you can’t make MMA techniques work it’s doubtful you’d be able to get your other techniques to work under pressure either.

56

Hi Royal dragon,

My YKM system of internal shaolin is based off the metal, stone and wooden spheres. Too bad not many other arts utilise this great training tool look at boxers and fitness they also now use the medicine ball for workouts but its been in ykm for over 1000yrs and at shaolin.

Ultimate strength training tool!:wink:

GARRY

57

No, not really.

I don’t know, but since Jujitsu and Sambo, two of the major groundfighting arts are historically proveable to be “battlefield arts”, I doubt very much that it’s because kung fu is “for the battlefield”.

Then what was it created for? :rolleyes:

58

The reason CMA doesn’t focus on groundfighting is because while you’re sitting on the ground with somebody, the other person is kicking you in the head.

They realized long ago that you rarely have the luxury of fighting just one opponent.

59

MMA is a trend, people sees fighters with briliant stamina that are able to get a enormous amount of hits and to counter-attack. unfortunatelly we are not all so naturally gifted neither we have the time to invest in so many styles.

I would luv to see a disent kung fu fighters gets in MMA. But to get in MMA u hv to train to get there and that training is quite different from what we general do. san shou-sanda its the more applicable for such an event but with addition of how to escape from grapling techniques.

It will b clever the chinese super duber san shou national team to send someone in MMA.

60

I like your name sir-elrick.