What does a lineage means?
A ritual?
A method?
A way of performance?
A way of training?
A different philosophy?
A family tree of a tribe?
A… ?
Lineage : The progression path from a certain origin in time. A line of inevitable hobbyists and artists feeding and growing from the fame of a celebrity! =)
P.S.
The Good: A further refinement or improvement of skills/special abilities from the old timers.
The Bad: The black sheeps who have gone astray and seem to delight in embarrasing the good sheeps to no end.
The Ugly: Like an ugly swam among their brethren ducks, they just bide their time. There is hope!
Lineage: identifying who one has learned from or is learning from
and when followed right-respect for people who have taught.
Claiming a lineage and having a lineage are not the same things.
Also, no guarantee of quality control anywhere in the line… more so with the coming of mass marketing..
There is the additional question- lineage in which art? Is an art-just a name?
Is sometimes a necessary but not sufficient marker of the possibility of some quality control in kung fu.
Greshams law- bad money drives out the good.
lineage holder
What is the job of a lineage holder?
what is the function of a lineage holder?
what is the qualification of a lineage holder?
Who can be a lineage holder?
what is the responsibility of a lineage holder?
Is a lineage holder a head of a tribe?
Is the lineage holder an abott of a temple?
Is the lineage holder the one with the mind seal?
Is the lineage holder the best fighter?
is the lineage holder the one goes out bring more stuffs into the lineage makes the lineage looks great eventhought those stuffs is not from the past?
Is the lineage holder …
when is the lineage vanished?
What does a lineage means?
in the end --------------------------- nothing
lineage holder = ego/false pride holder of nothing
Originally posted by Ernie
[B]What does a lineage means?
in the end --------------------------- nothing [/B]
that is the same with a name.
in the end… vanishing and forgotten.
But then why name exist?
Originally posted by yellowpikachu
[B]that is the same with a name.
in the end… vanishing and forgotten.
But then why name exist? [/B]
human weakness trying to be more then what one is , not accepting mortality , cycle of life all thngs die and are forgotten
Originally posted by Ernie
human weakness trying to be more then what one is , not accepting mortality , cycle of life all thngs die and are forgotten
certainly, there are a big part to that. but then, there might be other great reasons too.
Originally posted by yellowpikachu
certainly, there are a big part to that. but then, there might be other great reasons too.
no i’m sure i covered all bases when i said
lineage = nothing/ego/human weakness 
that’s my final answer
lineage might have to do with a proven process of operation.
lineage holder is then the person who master every steps and outcome of the process.
Say, there is Soto Zen, they have a pracitice type. The making of lady lee cookies, they have a unique cookie making process. Starbuck coffee, they have a unique coffee making process…
One with coffee and starbuck plastic cup doesnt mean has the same coffee making process of starbuck and doesnt limit to not blewing good coffee.
lineage is franchise of making centain things in a certain way?
still falls under false pride and ego
one would like to believe they have this or that ‘‘unique’’ way . and thus close there mind to all other ways and fight for there small place in time [ fear of being mortal ]
so the give it there family name and continue on with the illusion
for generations , minds stay closed and eyes get blinders
when if one just looks around you will see people from all over the world doing the same ‘’ unique’’ thing in one way or another
ego is a funny thing
it is so hard to let go of the need to feel special 
Ego is just an identity and nothing to be ashamed of. Pride of being yourself is healthy and good. And that’s why America loves a winner! And no, I’m not ashamed to admit this! =)
yellowpikachu…
Say, there is Soto Zen, they have a pracitice type. The making of lady lee cookies, they have a unique cookie making process. Starbuck coffee, they have a unique coffee making process…
Could be in the beginning, but even yourself…you mention evolution of things. So with evolution does the true lineage (as you are speaking here) slowly die and become or grow into something new!!!
Since we are on the product idea, even Pepsi changes and adds new flavor. What happens to the old Pepsi, is it not great any longer?
But seriously, I have my ideas on lineage…one being to not give great merit to one just because he comes out of a great or well know lineage. Again, it is the student and not so much the lineage.
But at the same time (without naming names), I do give respect to the teachers in my lineage out of respect. I don’t know if I would call it ritualistic, just pure respect. But at the same time, I am no longer with that lineage or any lineage to speak of, just as I prefer it! But the respect for those before me is still there and passed on to my students.
I guess I look at it more as my background and the background of those to come through me, and not much more. Just my opinion anyway!
By the way, lineage, when speaking to another Wing Chun practitioner , is or could be a great point of reference to understanding why or where this other person is coming from.
Ernie sez:
What does a lineage means?
in the end --------------------------- nothing
I enjoyed taking a good look at the latest IKF story on Gary Lam’s use of po pai jeung. Me thinks lineage atleast in part made it possible.
how do you mean Joy !
because you are familer with the action since we have a shared training system
or something else ?
Ernie- the shared training sysstem is understandable because of some tacit knowledge of lineage.
There are several other sytems that have double palms but they get their power in an entirely different way.
A lineage is no guarantee of quality- but it can serve as a marker of possibilities- provided other variables are there- the creativeness of the practitioner, sustained practice, the ability of the teacher
and the depth of the art.
Lineage is overused these days often by folks who are unsure of themselves- but as in many things throwing the baby (the lineage) out with the bathwater can weaken what is passed out to the next generation IMO- no problem if we differ..
We may mean different things by lineage.
Joy
I agree about the lineage thing been way over used and when I see things like lineage holder , it sickens me way to much little emperor syndrome going on there
You are only as good as you are and at best a good coach can help you save a lot of wasted time .
If by lineage one is just saying well this my teacher and that is it , then fine
But if one some how thinks by linking their name in with a line of names it has any weight , sadly that person is mistaken .
A good training system is worth investigating , and by good that means there are people showing results across the board . a training system based on a family name means nothing . the name [ego] is no where near as important as getting results , who cares if you are linked by some invisible line and you have no skill . hell even being directly related to a skilled person and learning from them still guaranties nothing , what would and non related person except =)
Personally I only see body mechanics, there are only so many ways to generate power , no nations or lineages or family names , those things are just smoke and mirrors , either you are good , or have the capability to make some one good or not
The rest I leave for the kings of lip sau
i’m gone for a week rap with you more later
Lineage is like “family” You get some things from your parents:Genetic,cultural,traditional,behavioral etc but you still are your own self.You are not a perfect copy of your “parents”
As we all know,there are good and bad sheeps in all families.
BTW,Think about the DNA molecule who was passed down to us from the beginning of life,from life forms to life forms,alive!..
I disagree with the idea that lineage is nothing or is next to nothing. It is no more than what it is, but is also certainly no less than what it is. While the power and potential of the individual can not and should not be discounted, the same should also be said for the foundations laid by those who have gone before. It would be sheer arrogance to assert that every skill, every theory, every application known to an individual had its origins in that individual; and that having benefitted, the individual carries no responsibility to anyone other than themself.
In honoring and respecting those who have gone before, we have an opportunity to honor and respect that part of ourselves to which their efforts have contributed. I am not diminished by showing respect to my Sifu and his lineage, but honored in proportion to those levels of respect I am able to demonstrate. I think where people start to diverge on this is when they confuse the Sifu as an individual with his/her efforts. The part of my Sifu and his lineage that specifically deserves my respect is the time and effort they have expended from which I benefit. To the extent that I have access to it and to the extent that I benefit. No more and no less. As with all relationships it’s conditional and not guaranteed; and it had to be earned before I would recognize it and respond to it accordingly. However, having benefitted, I would be supremely ungrateful to “forget” from whence those benefits came.
The arrogance of the individual can be just as abused as the arrogance of the association. Maybe even easier, since there is no internal check and balance as there is with our associations with others. There is no virtue in arbitrarily discounting the efforts of those who have gone before simply because they are old and we are young. The personalities may deserve varying degrees of respect, but their efforts on our behalf should be above reproach. IMO.
JafoIt would be sheer arrogance to assert that every skill, every theory, every application known to an individual had its origins in that individual; ]]
i disagree it is always in the individual , the ability and drive and hard work can not be handed to them they must do it , every punch every step , no short cuts , to thinnk that some one gave it to you is dis respecting yourself
but
there are those that need such things , they need to believe in something greater then themselves
then there are those that don’t
if that is being arrogant then i take it as a compliment
there are alot of sheep in this world it is much easier to be told something then to find it for yourself
persoanl growth far out wieghs any group orginiazation or lineage
to not walk on your own is lazy IMO but then i don’t get tradtion in any way shape or form , just seems creepy to me
:rolleyes: