How Important Is Lineage?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
1

Everyone claims that there teachers is/was the best! It’s only normal. Everyone likes to think that they are learning material from someone who could really use and understands/understood it well.

But how really important is this?

First of all, EVERYBODY’S teacher cannot be great. Within every generation, there a lot of bad ones, a group of good ones and a few great ones. The funny thing is, I never ever hear about the guys who weren’t very good. Where are they? Where are the worst students (of a supposedly good teacher) who are now teaching? Everyone is always, the first student, (which they work the angle that they got the ‘best’ stuff) or the last student (which they work the angle of being the last one ‘in’ to bet the best stuff), etc.

Where are all the sucky students who decide to teach? We know that there are sucky students that trained with all our teachers when we trained (we - meaning everyone reading this). How did all the ‘not-so-goods’ start teaching and suddenly get good?

Additionally - so what if you trained with a famous martial arts, or for example, your teacher’s teacher’s teacher’s teacher was a top student of Wong Fei Hung? What does that make you? Why does everyone think because they learned from someone who was (or was not) good, does that make them ‘entitled’ or automatically better than everyone esle?

Case in point; I think my teacher Chan Tai-San was a very good martial artist and fighter. I have met many people who have witnessed his fights and heard many cool stories about him (the best one’s came from other people). I trained with him for quite along time. But what does that make me? Am I automatically good because my teacher was good?

I think my teacher was good, as I compare what he has taught me with what I have seen from other martial artists or sparred/worked out with other martial artists. THAT is why I think he was good. I actually didn’t think he was amazing for the first couple of years, because I didnt’ expose myself to a lot of other martial arts/artists to compare. I thought everyone learned all the same things. :slight_smile: Plus, my teacher, in all honesty, wasn’t a good ‘teacher.’ It took a lot of work on my part and my classmates together, to interpret our lessons. I have seen lots of people who trained with my teachers, some for several years, and still they arent’ very good. So where does that leave us?

And it is not JUST the fact that he taught me the actual applications to movements. Many people learn to apply specific techniques. It IS however, a skilled CMA that can show you how and when to use it against others REALISTICALLY. We could probably agree that many teachers of CMA are out of touch with (or never there to begin with) the reality of actual combat. And if goes without saying that even some of the people who beleive that they are the few that ‘get it’, alas, may be some of the people that don’t!

But still, what does that make me? Granted, I may have been privy to some cool insight and his approach/perspective of martial arts, and in many ways it may have been quite different from the average teacher (being tha CTS has actual COMBAT experiences - fighting in WWII, The Cultural Revolution, etc) and most teachers, even old Chinese of today, didn’t. But does that make me better than the guy who studies with an unknown?

I was given a ‘vessel of knowledge’ (not to get all Kwai Chang Kain on you all) but it is up to ME to train and develope and create (yes, even create. Every generation creates, that is how we have come to have so many styles and tech. today). It is up to US, as martial artists to get better than our teachers (or the legends of those past - because some of the past is quite a bit of hype), to fight, to train, to teach and to work harder each and every day to become our best.

We seem to ride the coat tails of our teachers and our teachers before us (teachers of TCMA in general). And when we do, some people criticize. But then when someone talks about there own accomplishments, the same people often criticize and say that they are bragging or not giving enought respect to their lineage? Quite the double edged-sword in my opinion.

So why do we do it? Is there really a point in talking about one’s lineage as it relates to their skill? Is anyone really priviledged because their teacher’s teacher may have been skilled? And if he was, does that mean we are automatically ‘skilled’ as well, by association?

What do you think? My apologies if my thoughts are all over the place, I thought about a topic and then it took a life of it’s own. But I am interested in hearing others thoughts…

Sidebar:

I find it refreshing that in the MMA community, no one really talks about their lineage. They don’t talk about many things that we in the TCMA community, bicker and argue about. I wonder what that tells us?

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Authentication

One reason that lineage is important is that it establishes the credibility of your material.

By providing references to the source of your training you can conclude that what you have to learn/teach is actual/authentic/traditional martial arts, and not a sequence of movements that have been ‘made up’.

Esoteric martial art forms can be useful, but some people may give names to these ‘forms’ and try to pass them off as part of a traditional system.

3

Everything is relative.

the first student may stay with the teacher the longest time, therefore have more “lessons”.

the last or youngest student will outlive the teacher and the first student, he or she has the responsiblity to pass on more “refined” stuff.

good or suck is all relative, too.

Dong Hai Chuan had so many students. each took the style “differently”,

Yin Fu was good with Tan Tui, Shaolin fist: Luo Han Shou,. so his Ba Gua had a lot of strikes and kicks.

Cheng Ting Hua knew Shuai Jiao, so there are a lot of throws.

They both had a lot of students. So they are well known.

Shi Ji Dong hosted Dong at his late life. Shi taught most of his stuff to Liang. Liang also learned some finer stuff from Dong. And Liang Zhen Pu was the final student.

my point is that even though people pay more attention to the first and last student.

However, who ever propagate the style more or have more students will be most known.

Fan and Ma are less well know however, they had good students,too. Ma had Wang Pei Sheng who was also well known for Wu Tai Chi.

lineage is only a reference point that where your stuff came from or learned from.

how you take the art/style from that learning is entirely up to you.

–

:slight_smile:

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Lineage - Important or not?

Lineage may be important to some people, this is obvious by these threads.

Lets examine why you would or would not look at someone’s lineage.

If someone’s lineage is famous or plays an important role in which style you chose. Like in Hung Gar: Would you want to study under Lam Tsai Wing or Tang Fang Lineage. Some people like they way Tang Fang forms move. Some people like the power in Lam Tsai Wing Forms. In the end… if both styles teach the principles and theories of the system, there really is no difference in lineage. Just what flavour you like.

Now what if a master of a true kung fu style, and they possess great skill and mastery of their system, but their style is a small unknown family style. How would you research his lineage? You really can not.

What would it matter if your teacher’s teacher’s teacher was the sucky Chef or gardener? Lineage is not as important as the amount of love or enthusiasum you have for the given style. Thru out history of all or any styles, sucky student teach. Eventually a sucky student’s, student’s student was somebody famous. This may not be a great example but Northern shaolin master Ku Yu Cheong’s teacher was Yim Kai Wan… really not a well known for anything spactacular.

When you look it closely, if you are happy with your sifu or instructor, lineage does not matter. (I understand about frauds… let say they are not.)

Ginosifu

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Lineage - Important or not?

Frauds have been making up styles for ever!! I am not talking about those individuals. Frauds will take advantage of naive students no matter what you do.

I am talking about legitimate kung fu styles and teachers. If there was an unknown small family style teacher who’s lineage can not be verified, would you study with him or her? What if this teacher is really the chef that has watched from the back room for the last 20 years. He has all of the system info but he’s the sucky one?

It comes done this fact - If you can not verify someones lineage will you study with them?

I say that lineage is not the thing you should be looking at. Naive students need to get to know the instructor and see if there philosophy and your are alike. Advanced students need to train or practice with the teacher, see how they move and teach… do you like what they are doing?

I have been practicing / teaching for almost 20 years now and I tell how a person moves just by watching walk or perform. If they have kung fu, I can pretty much tell during the first few moments.

BTW kal, I read the article… http://www.furyu.com/wayne/Dave27sF/Confess.html. It deals only with fraud. Fraud is a whole other thread.

I am saying lineage of honest peeps, do you really need to see there lineage if you love their style?

Ginosifu

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No; lineage does not automatically mean you are any good. But this is not an excuse for frauds to make up their own rubbish and pass it off as being genuine kung fu.

Here is a fantastic article about this whole phenomenon which also shows why the whole “I only care if it works” argument is flawed.

http://www.furyu.com/wayne/Dave%27sF/Confess.html

The article was written with regard to Japanese martial arts, but that doesn’t matter. Everything he says about koryu (classical Japanese arts, as opposed to the modern budo) is applicable to genuine Chinese arts as well.

7

I’m kind of split on this issue. On one hand it’s important if you intend to pass on the system or your primary interest is in learning an ancient art.

On the other hand it doesn’t really matter if you’re just looking for a good workout or your primary focus is on fighting (sport or self defense).

[QUOTE=IronWeasel;726055]By providing references to the source of your training you can conclude that what you have to learn/teach is actual/authentic/traditional martial arts, and not a sequence of movements that have been ‘made up’.[/QUOTE]

I still have a bit of an issue with this ‘made up’ concept. It’s all ‘made up’ so where do you draw the line? How many years or generations have to go by before a ‘made up’ sequence of mevements is acceptable?

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[QUOTE=Yao Sing;726078]

I still have a bit of an issue with this ‘made up’ concept. It’s all ‘made up’ so where do you draw the line? How many years or generations have to go by before a ‘made up’ sequence of mevements is acceptable?[/QUOTE]

Good question!

I have a simple policy: making up stuff and being honest about it is acceptable; making up stuff and LYING about where it came from is not!

(Personally I can’t understand why people would want to make up their own so-called CMA when there are so many genuine ones in existence. Why reinent the wheel? But that’s just my taste. I don’t really have a problem with people who make up their own stuff, as long as they don’t claim it is something it’s not. Such systems should stand or fall on their own merits. I do have a huge problem with liars though. )

9

here is the lineage of the day or du jour.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZm2Cm4TXR0&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AasSPOOWWRc

:smiley: :slight_smile:

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Lineage - Important or not

I think you guys are a bit hung up on frauds. Yes I think we can all agree that frauds are out there they make up junk bla bla bla bla bla.

Lets get back to the original thread. Take away the fraud and see if there is any good or bad comments about lineage. Why should we look at lineage? (besides fraud)?

Do you use lineage to decide which style of hung gar (lam tsai wing or tang fang etc etc)? Does lineage help you to use teacher A or teacher B of a given system. What does lineage do for you?

Ginosifu :stuck_out_tongue:

11

I really like this thread Sifu Parrella,

I totally agree, even under just one school, there are skilled students and not so skilled students.

This depends on many things and there are too many variables to formulate a justification on which lineage/teacher produces “better” students.

There are constants that seem to show themselves in good kung fu groups, but no one formula.

Even within your school, I am sure some of your students are more gifted or harder working than others. And I’m sure you dont hold back from them…
For some, kung fu is a number one priority, for others its simply a leisurely activity.

I’ve learned to first meet and touch hands with the man, and ask him lineage questions after.

12

I could really care who someone’s studied with. I care a whole lot more about whether or not they’re any good, and if they can teach me to be any good.

This isn’t to say I don’t like hearing my Sifu’s stories about being trained, but to me, they’re just cool stories. Maybe he’s embelleshed, maybe he hasn’t(Cause I know for a fact he likes to screw with me). Don’t spend too much time thinkin about it though, cause it’s got jack-all to do with whether or not I’m learning how to kick some butt.

13

it just gives you an idea of the persons hands. sh!t teachers will create sh!t students no matter how hard the students try. good teachers can also have sh!t students, BUT only good teachers will make good students, so lineage at least gives you an idea. But JUST an idea. There is a lot of crap out there that is tied to good lineage…maybe they just were not good students, maybe they didnt get all of the material, maybe they just cant fight no matter how well they know the material. There are too many factors for lineage to be a decisive answer.

“Quote:
I find it refreshing that in the MMA community, no one really talks about their lineage. They don’t talk about many things that we in the TCMA community, bicker and argue about. I wonder what that tells us?”

BTW, i dont believe this is true at all. I always hear on UFC, “so and so trains with this insert namecamp”, “so and so trains with so and so”…what is this? Sounds like the same thing to me. The Gracie’s are obviously another lineage people point out all the time…give it another 50-75 years and MMA will be talking about the same crap, BUT the difference between them and most kung fu is that they get in and prove it.

14

wow good thread. i think lineage is one of those things that people look at as a verification of credientials. its like the way you go to your doctor’s office and he has his diploma on the wall. it reassures you as the patient that he is legit. of course he could have had one forged just like so many people insert themselves into lineages that they have no business being in. does being in a given lineage make you a good fighter? of course not. does it make you a good teacher? again no. just like having your MD diploma on the wall doesnt make you a good doctor. but as a patient you can go to a doctor and know if you are getting better. you can feel if you are getting the desired result. as a MA student you should be able to tell the same things. i don’t think many of us are foolish enough to think we can fight when we can’t. we may not admit it but we know whether or not we know how to apply techniques and if after knowing how we can actually do it. but before i get off topic does lineage matter? not really. ooo unless you can summon the spirit of past masters to come down and do your fighting for you. if you can i want to see it bc that would be bada$$.

the other thing i wanted to say is that the point about looking at lineage to help a student determine which branch of a given style suits them best is a very good point. the problem is people that are in a given branch tend to say theirs is better than the others. i’m not going to say they are wrong but i will say i disagree. a technique is a technique. it is a thought. it has only as much use or power as the person doing it. so a lineage’s way of doing it will suit different people. and each lineage will have its stars and its bad students.

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Knowing Where it Came From

There are obviously many views on lineage and it’s impact on ones training. Personally, and from what I’ve read and agree with is that it bears no impact on ones ability. Lineage defined is the line of descent from an ancestor to a person or family. That’s all it is nothing more, nothing less. A method of tracking where the information came from. The quality of the information and it’s dissemniation from one generation to the next changes. In some instances it may improve and be expanced upon while in others it may loose all of its intended value. Regardless, being heir to a line doesn’t mean that the person holding the lineage is any good at all.

One thing that has molded my view on lineage is the change in civilization as a whole. When lineages were “key” to the survival of the family it was something that was passed down to few. Families passed along their “secret techniques” their systems only to their family (by which this often meant an entire village) members. In a world where they fought on a regular basis for survival this was imperative not to have ones weaknesses / strengths exposed for the whole world to see.

As the generations have passed and times change we arrive at today. Martial arts are widespread. The “martial” aspects of it in most systems has been all but lost as there is no need for weekly and daily battles for survival. Challenges everywhere except on forums are all but non-existent and the orginal intent of the art being passed is not the same. So where as say 200 years ago you looked at a student from so and so’s family and they said - forget it those guys will kick our arsce - because it was that they were all taught to fight and their line was reknown for same. Now 200 years later with the dillusion of MA and no disrespect intended, but the caliber of practitioners having changed by nature - you can’t look at the same line and say that because unless their fighting all the time…you just don’t know.

Before anyone uproars, I’m not saying that core content in every system is lost as it is not. But the intent by means of our society and way of life is not the same. As for the content, it does and MUST change. Recently, I had the honor of having dinner while in HK with Lau Kar Leung and Lau Kar Wing who we all I trust agree are phenominal martial artists first and foremost. They expressed something which I guess I didn’t expect and that was that Kung Fu has to change to survive. Keep the core, you need that but EXPAND ON IT.

Kung Fu is alive it is a living thing which must grow and change or else it will die. Lineage is already dead so to look back on it and presume to know that in this day and age someone is good because of something that another person may have done 100 years ago is ridicuouls. Look at what you have now - how good your skills are, your teachers skills are and are you able to take that core and apply it to what you need to do TODAY.

Just my two cents.

16

[QUOTE=IronWeasel;726055]One reason that lineage is important is that it establishes the credibility of your material.

By providing references to the source of your training you can conclude that what you have to learn/teach is actual/authentic/traditional martial arts, and not a sequence of movements that have been ‘made up’.

Esoteric martial art forms can be useful, but some people may give names to these ‘forms’ and try to pass them off as part of a traditional system.[/QUOTE]

shouldn’t the product of your teacher’s instruction provide more credibility? If I am faced to train at either a place who has a very credible lineage but has problems turning out fighters, or training at a shaolin do school known for the quality of the fighters it produces, then I’m going to the shaolin do school.

17

[QUOTE=mantiskilla;726133]
“Quote:
I find it refreshing that in the MMA community, no one really talks about their lineage. They don’t talk about many things that we in the TCMA community, bicker and argue about. I wonder what that tells us?”

BTW, i dont believe this is true at all. I always hear on UFC, “so and so trains with this insert namecamp”, “so and so trains with so and so”…what is this? Sounds like the same thing to me. The Gracie’s are obviously another lineage people point out all the time…give it another 50-75 years and MMA will be talking about the same crap, BUT the difference between them and most kung fu is that they get in and prove it.
[/QUOTE]

in mma and muay thai, those are far more rare. In bjj, you see them quite a bit, but not to the depth that you see them on cma forums. However, even in these discussions, certain skill levels generally aren’t assumed because someone trained under a certain lineage or is affiliated with a certain person. More common are school names - through competing, you start too see certain schools which always do well, and they establish a rep as being good. So someone ask’s where you train and they say “SevenStar’s bjj,” then they are either like “hmm… never heard of them - do they compete much” “I rememver them, they suck,” or “yeah, that’s a pretty good school”. Overall, lineage is looked over. The gracies (sticking with your example) have just as many crappy students as they do good ones.

18

[QUOTE=BruceSteveRoy;726140]ooo unless you can summon the spirit of past masters to come down and do your fighting for you. if you can i want to see it bc that would be bada$$.
[/QUOTE]

are you a “shaman king” fan?

19

I waited a while to post on this thread, to consider what I really believe… after years of doing this stuff, I finally think

LINEAGE MEANS NOTHING

Far too many people live off their lineage. If their lineage had great fighters in the past, the must be a fighter. If their teacher was great, they must be great.

CTS was a great man with some great lineages, not all my classmates are created equal, some have very minor skills.

As for the “those who learned crap”… If you learned crap and are still doing it, that says a lot about YOU. Most who learn crap move on, or at least add to it.

I really think that lineage obsession is one of the many diseases plaguing CMA today

20

I agree with the perspective that just cause you studied with a “great” (read: well-known") teacher doesn’t mean a great deal in terms of one’s own abilities;

where it can be of interest is in terms of the archeological aspect of tracing back where your “stuff” came from, why it’s the way it is, etc. etc. - nothing to do with fighting though…

for example, my teacher’s taiji lineage is a very uncommon one: we trace directly to Yang Lu Chan, but not through any of the established lines; this is of relevance because of a) how we do the form, in terms of what moves are still in it versus ones that were deleted later on for various reasons; b) why we tend to view the form from a taoist alchemical perspective, as opposed to just physical health or martial usage; knowing our lineage and the people in it, their background, training, perspective etc. helps to tease out the “truths” about what has come down to us; again, very little to do with fighting per se

so lineage has its place, it’s like a map on which you orient yourself - but it’s not the map itself that’s going to save you from the wilderness…