[QUOTE=Knifefighter;980689]The fact that you think locks are effective standup grappling pretty much proves that you haven’t used it against halfway skilled opponents.
Standing locks almost never work.[/QUOTE]
just because you and the people you know arent talented enough to accomplish certain moves doesnt automatically mean a technique doesnt work
thats a rather foolish assumption:D
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;980691]LOL… when you’ve been grappling as long as I have, it’s easy to spot the bullsh!tters. One easy give away is people who claim to be able to pull off standing joint locks.[/QUOTE]
So you mean to tell me that against a street chump that you can’t pull off a standing joint lock or joint lock throw? Do you mean to tell me that against a skilled opponent, that you don’t get one off once in a blue moon?
[QUOTE=goju;980695]just because you and the people you know arent talented enough to accomplish certain moves doesnt automatically mean a technique doesnt work
thats a rather foolish assumption:D[/QUOTE]
Maybe there is someone, somewhere in the world who can consistently pull off standing joint locks. So far, however, he hasn’t surfaced. If he ever does, he will have hordes of submission grapplers, SAMBO competitors, judo players and MMA fighters beating a path to his door to become students of his.
[QUOTE=goju;980695]just because you and the people you know arent talented enough to accomplish certain moves doesnt automatically mean a technique doesnt work
thats a rather foolish assumption:D[/QUOTE]
Two things –
First of all, the understanding that standing joint locks don’t work doesn’t depend on whether or not you personally can do it. There are lots of things I cannot personally do, but I can see others make work consistently in sparring with quality people. In other words, I base my views on evidence not just my personal abilities. The evidence in this instance is that we never see standing joint locks working against anyone but unskilled scrubs or drunks. We also hear from the world’s best proven grapplers that those things aren’t viable. So where is the evidence of it working?
Second, when you spend significant amounts of time grappling with good people, you develop an understanding of grappling, what things work, what doesn’t, why that is the case, and so forth. If you don’t have this experience, you don’t know or have an understanding for grappling - regardless of how many books or videos you’ve watched.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;980698]Maybe there is someone, somewhere in the world who can consistently pull off standing joint locks. So far, however, he hasn’t surfaced. If he ever does, he will have hordes of submission grapplers, SAMBO competitors, judo players and MMA fighters beating a path to his door to become students of his.[/QUOTE]
no actually ive seen him:D
back when i was very young i witnessed a knife disarm demo by a visiting tkd master form korea who everyone called mr.park
it was completely unrehearsed and the attacker could useany angle he wished to attack him and he was locked and slammed all over the room and it was quite amazing
actually no i highly doubt it thats like saying all these strikers are beating down cung le’s door to learn how to kick like him since hes proven how effective unorthodox kicking techniques can be:D
[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;980696]So you mean to tell me that against a street chump that you can’t pull off a standing joint lock or joint lock throw? Do you mean to tell me that against a skilled opponent, that you don’t get one off once in a blue moon?[/QUOTE]
What you don’t grasp is that a good grappler won’t try to get one – he has learned better things. Why do something stupid when something sound will achieve what you want? I may be able to pull off a karate reverse punch against a drunk. So what? Why will I change my punching for the drunk? If I want to control a drunk, why use a standing jointlock? Why not just use standard, solid clinch controls?
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;980699]Two things –
First of all, the understanding that standing joint locks don’t work doesn’t depend on whether or not you personally can do it. There are lots of things I cannot personally do, but I can see others make work consistently in sparring with quality people. In other words, I base my views on evidence not just my personal abilities. The evidence in this instance is that we never see standing joint locks working against anyone but unskilled scrubs or drunks. We also hear from the world’s best proven grapplers that those things aren’t viable. So where is the evidence of it working?
Second, when you spend significant amounts of time grappling with good people, you develop an understanding of grappling, what things work, what doesn’t, why that is the case, and so forth. If you don’t have this experience, you don’t know or have an understanding for grappling - regardless of how many books or videos you’ve watched.[/QUOTE]
wow who knew igor would come shuffling along with his master to this thread
first of all youer a blatant nut rider who attaches himself to dale so you think it will give your opinion more worth
second you have admitted yourself that youre not any good at all
therefore why do you bother?youre not good because you havent trained with anyone good so obviously how can you see anything work when there is nothing to see? LOL thats a big duh terrence
[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;980696]So you mean to tell me that against a street chump that you can’t pull off a standing joint lock or joint lock throw? Do you mean to tell me that against a skilled opponent, that you don’t get one off once in a blue moon?[/QUOTE]
What is a street chump? Is it a BJJ blackbelt who is ****ed off because he got screwed by the referee in his championship match that morning? Is it a 275 lb collegiate lineman who is on cycle and having a bit of roid rage? It it the guy recently out of prison carrying a blade who has just done a few hits of PCP. Assuming someone on the street is an easy mark shows your lack of street experience.
I’ve been doing submission grappling BJJ tourneys for years now, as well as following many of the tourneys that I haven’t competed in. I can count on one hand the number of standing locks I’ve seen in thousands of matches over the years.
As far as using a joint manipulation, such as a kimura, to effect a throw, those work fine, but we are talking about standing control, not takedowns.
Training standing locks is generally a huge waste of time, right along there with those FMA disarms you were talking about.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;980701]What you don’t grasp is that a good grappler won’t try to get one – he has learned better things. Why do something stupid when something sound will achieve what you want? I may be able to pull off a karate reverse punch against a drunk. So what? Why will I change my punching for the drunk? If I want to control a drunk, why use a standing jointlock? Why not just use standard, solid clinch controls?[/QUOTE]
If you have some better things than point me to the youtube video. I will concede defeat if you can show me a series of standing techniques that will accomplish the goals of remaining standing, legal, compassionate, and both highly ring and street effective which are needed for police work, security/bouncing, social work, and the like.
[QUOTE=goju;980702]wow who knew igor would come shuffling along with his master to this thread
[/QUOTE]
I am beginning to think you aren’t very bright. I didn’t come “shuffling along to this thread”, I started the thread. And I’ve been involved in the conversation the whole way.
one thing your a blatant nut rider who attaches himself to dale so you think it will give your opinion more worth
And all you can do is personally attack people – with rather stupid remarks.
What I pay attention to is good, solid experience and to people with that sort of experience.
second you have admitted yourself youre not any good at all
I’m not that good compared to the people who are really good – and anyone who trains with really good people will understand what I mean (and I don’t expect you to). As I wrote above, and which you apparently didn’t read, “the understanding that standing joint locks don’t work doesn’t depend on whether or not you personally can do it. There are lots of things I cannot personally do, but I can see others make work consistently in sparring with quality people.”
therefore why do you bother?youre not good because you havent trained with anyone good so obviously how can you see anything work when there is nothing to see? LOL thats a big duh terrence
You don’t know anything about me or my training.
Your involvement in this thread is apparently limited to offering nothing of substance and only personally attacking people you don’t like (because they are critical of your fantasy fighting notions).
You stared the thread niehoff but you have turned into the igor.
[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;980705]If you have some better things than point me to the youtube video. I will concede defeat if you can show me a series of standing techniques that will accomplish the goals of remaining standing, legal, compassionate, and both highly ring and street effective which are needed for police work, security/bouncing, social work, and the like.[/QUOTE]
Over/underhooks and 2 on 1’s. Mastery of these works for everything from controlling a bigger opponent, keeping your opponent from striking you or taking you down, to controlling a weapon.
[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;980705]If you have some better things than point me to the youtube video. I will concede defeat if you can show me a series of standing techniques that will accomplish the goals of remaining standing, legal, compassionate, and both highly ring and street effective which are needed for police work, security/bouncing, social work, and the like.[/QUOTE]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYiJuVficXg
There are others. Perhaps you if actually went and trained with some good grapplers . . .
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;980706]I am beginning to think you aren’t very bright. I didn’t come “shuffling along to this thread”, I started the thread. And I’ve been involved in the conversation the whole way.
And all you can do is personally attack people – with rather stupid remarks.
What I pay attention to is good, solid experience and to people with that sort of experience.
I’m not that good compared to the people who are really good – and anyone who trains with really good people will understand what I mean (and I don’t expect you to). As I wrote above, and which you apparently didn’t read, “the understanding that standing joint locks don’t work doesn’t depend on whether or not you personally can do it. There are lots of things I cannot personally do, but I can see others make work consistently in sparring with quality people.”
You don’t know anything about me or my training.
Your involvement in this thread is apparently limited to offering nothing of substance and only personally attacking people you don’t like (because they are critical of your fantasy fighting notions).[/QUOTE]
you are good when you train with good people
unless you have just started martial arts a month ago there is no reason why youre not good other than the fact you are not training hard or youre not learning from a skilled coach or possiblya mixture of both:D
[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;980707]You stared the thread niehoff but you have turned into the igor.[/QUOTE]
No, he makes excellent points. You just don’t have the knowledge and experience to understand what he is saying.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;980710]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYiJuVficXg
There are others. Perhaps you if actually went and trained with some good grapplers . . .[/QUOTE]
Let’s go more than one deep?
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;980714]No, he makes excellent points. You just don’t have the knowledge and experience to understand what he is saying.[/QUOTE]
yes because saying completely obvious things like train hard and realistically is such a brillaint concept no one has ever heard of!
I NOW SEE THE LIGHT THANKS TO TERRENCE!!!
TRAIN HARD AND SPAR REALISTICALLY YOU SAY?
MY GOD HE HAS REINVENTED THE WHEEL!!!
NO ONE HAS EVER THOUGHT OF THIS IN ALL OF MANKINDS EXISTENCE!!!
TERRENCE IS TRULY A PROPHET!!!
COME LETS ADORE HIIIIIIIIIIIIIM’
COME LETS ADORE HIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIM
COME LETS ADORE HIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIM
[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;980707]You stared the thread niehoff but you have turned into the igor.[/QUOTE]
Dale’s views coincide with mine (in some things) but we have formed them independently. And our views are not anything extraordinary, and you’d hear the same things from anyone who has spent some significant time training with good mma, mt, wrestlers, jits people, etc.
What I acknowledge is Dale’s accomplishments – and if you haven’t rolled with a BJJ BB, you simply don’t know how awesome of a grappler you need to be to earn one. He’s also fought mma and bareknuckle. And has trained WCK. So what? Well, I think that means his views are worthy of consideration. When I talk about going and training with good, proven fighters, he is the sort of person I’m talking about. That doesn’t make me “igor”,it just means I listen to people worth listening to.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;980710]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYiJuVficXg
There are others. Perhaps you if actually went and trained with some good grapplers . . .[/QUOTE]
Standing chokes are much higher percentage than standing joint locks. Even then, these are still relatively low percentage moves… not to mention the fact that as soon as you apply a choke, you are looking at the legal consequences of deadly force.
Much better to learn the arm-control intricacies… which you have to learn first to get that choke anyways.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;980718]Standing chokes are much higher percentage than standing joint locks. Even then, these are still relatively low percentage moves… not to mention the fact that as soon as you apply a choke, you are looking at the legal consequences of deadly force.
Much better to learn the arm-control intricacies… which you have to learn first to get that choke anyways.[/QUOTE]
You’ll get no arguments from me but I am not sure that these are out of the realm of chin na. I have long taught an arm drag into a rear naked choke. The side choke is one of the techniques that we using in plumbing, we drill escapes from it.