[QUOTE=golden arhat;752667]
if they labeled this better and made it clear that it is nothing more than a sport ?
(btw i also find badminton helps my training reflexes etc)
what then ?
[/QUOTE]
sure badminton will help your reflexes, but there are actual marial arts exersizes that can help you with this as well as build structure and martially aquainted focus as well as mechanics.
so you could play bad minton or train martial arts. which do you think will help you fight better/
of course i do both and i know what works
but i was just pointing out the value of seemingly unrelated sports like badminton
surely wushu also has value then
mantis108
While I may not agree with your opinions, I understand your passion. I too love TCMA but do not take the same view as yourself in terms of Modern Wushu. Modern Wushu is not a whole representation of CMA merely a portion of it and a fairly small one at that.
Where I believe the traditional mind set such as yourself are wrong is to point to the Modern Wushu community and claim that is solely making them look bad. As I see it CMA is an umbrella term referring to all the aspects of itself including the Traditional Styles, Internal Styles, San Shou & Modern Wushu. And Modern Wushu is really only a small portion of that, the vast majority is still the Traditional Chinese Martial Arts. But when I hear so many traditional CMA proponents moan about how Modern Wushu is a dancing art with no practical this & that and making them (the TCMA community) look bad, I ask how many of them actually go out and prove what TCMA can do? If the TCMA is such a valid fighting art then why aren’t they out there proving it to the world? Here in Vancouver we have a lot of good traditional Sifu but truth is we have even more substandard Sifu who do no more then run ‘forms’ schools. In my opinion these guys are doing more of a disservice to the TCMA community then any Modern Wushu player by perpetuating substandard CMA and passing it off as a valid fighting art.
Someone such as the woman shown doing the Fantsi, while it may not be to your liking, has trained countless hours and definitely trained much harder then your average Chinatown Kung Fu player. Now she has not trained application because she is a member of a professional team that is trained specifically for an artistic sport based on CMA but within the context of her sport she would be considered highly skilled. I won’t try to validate what she, or any other Modern Wushu person, does in terms of a fighting art because there’s no need it’s a sport an artistic expression if you will of one aspect of CMA.
And why is it more TCMA proponents don’t actually get out their and prove what they can do? Some have ventured into San Shou, and oddly when that happens a lot of TCMA persons will start again pointed fingers and saying oh that’s not ‘Kung Fu’! I honestly believe because the vast majority can’t (don’t get me wrong their are definitely some that are highly skilled). In my opinion many Chinatown Kung Fu types would get their heads handed to them by your average boxer or MMA practitioner.
All of that being said I truly believe TCMA has a lot to offer and to me not just as a fighting art but in terms of a cultural heritage. The TCMA proponents, such as yourself, should if they are so worried about the damage Modern Wushu is doing be out there showing it’s true value of TCMA.
My two cents 
mantis108
While I may not agree with your opinions, I understand your passion. I too love TCMA but do not take the same view as yourself in terms of Modern Wushu. Modern Wushu is not a whole representation of CMA merely a portion of it and a fairly small one at that.
Where I believe the traditional mind set such as yourself are wrong is to point to the Modern Wushu community and claim that is solely making them look bad. As I see it CMA is an umbrella term referring to all the aspects of itself including the Traditional Styles, Internal Styles, San Shou & Modern Wushu. And Modern Wushu is really only a small portion of that, the vast majority is still the Traditional Chinese Martial Arts. But when I hear so many traditional CMA proponents moan about how Modern Wushu is a dancing art with no practical this & that and making them (the TCMA community) look bad, I ask how many of them actually go out and prove what TCMA can do? If the TCMA is such a valid fighting art then why aren’t they out there proving it to the world? Here in Vancouver we have a lot of good traditional Sifu but truth is we have even more substandard Sifu who do no more then run ‘forms’ schools. In my opinion these guys are doing more of a disservice to the TCMA community then any Modern Wushu player by perpetuating substandard CMA and passing it off as a valid fighting art.
Someone such as the woman shown doing the Fantsi, while it may not be to your liking, has trained countless hours and definitely trained much harder then your average Chinatown Kung Fu player. Now she has not trained application because she is a member of a professional team that is trained specifically for an artistic sport based on CMA but within the context of her sport she would be considered highly skilled. I won’t try to validate what she, or any other Modern Wushu person, does in terms of a fighting art because there’s no need it’s a sport an artistic expression if you will of one aspect of CMA.
And why is it more TCMA proponents don’t actually get out there and prove what they can do? Some have ventured into San Shou, and oddly when that happens a lot of TCMA persons will start again pointed fingers and saying oh that’s not ‘Kung Fu’! I honestly believe because the vast majority can’t (don’t get me wrong there are definitely some that are highly skilled). In my opinion many Chinatown Kung Fu types would get their heads handed to them by your average boxer or MMA practitioner.
All of that being said I truly believe TCMA has a lot to offer and to me not just as a fighting art but in terms of a cultural heritage. The TCMA proponents, such as yourself, if they are so worried about the damage Modern Wushu is doing should be out there showing it’s true value of TCMA.
My two cents
Almost all the modern wushu forms have a forward running followed by a jumping outside crescent kick in the air. It looks good but does it have any combat value? If you are chasing someone then while you suddently jump up and kick behind you? If someone is chasing you and you are running away from him then why don’t you look backward when you are running. The direction and angle make no combat sense that futher prove that the Wushu forms designer didnot consider combat situation in the 1st place.
YouKnowWho
It looks good but does it have any combat value?
In all probability no. So? Modern Wushu is a performance sport, everything is not measured purely by combat application within the confines of the sport.
Conversly there are probabely a lot of moves done within many traditional styles that you & I could argue the combat validity of for hours. Most all TCMA is very lacking in the area of ground fighting. Does this invalidate TCMA? Of course not and conversely your statement does not invalidate a sport version of CMA simply because it does currently do a ‘jump outside crescent kick’ in a manner that you consider inpractical.
Again just my opinion 
[QUOTE=golden arhat;752681]of course i do both and i know what works
but i was just pointing out the value of seemingly unrelated sports like badminton
surely wushu also has value then[/QUOTE]
modern wushu definately has value. many of the training exersizes are the same as of old.
i myself practiced modern wushu for several years, i just got to a point when i would much rather be doing something else with my training time than modern sets.
it felt like a waste of time to me.
i would be there practicing my comp. long fist or something similar and just kinda looking at the heavy bag. near drooling actually. i realized i was wasting my time and not working towards my actual goals.
jean claud van damme (sp) started with bellet, sure it helped him out, but what if he had started with Muay thai instead?
but what it all comes down to is love. what do you love to do? if you dont love to fight, why bother trying? if you love the explosive and dynamic, electric feel of practicing a very intense modern wushu set…well thats what you should focus on.
to me…love is the answer.
[QUOTE=firepalm;752707]there are probabely a lot of moves done within many traditional styles that you & I could argue the combat validity of for hours.[/QUOTE]
We don’t need to argue on that and I have already agree with you. A simple example will be the Taiji “cloud hands” should not be linear but should include stealing step and body rotation. We can find so many such direction and angle errors in TCMA forms.
A performance art can still include combat art if the form was designed properly. It’s possible to kill 2 birds with 1 stone but I believe the modern Wushu forms designer on purposely didn’t want to include the combat value in the 1st place. This is why the Chinese government promotes performance art such as Wushu to her people but promote combat art such as Sanda to her police force and soldiers.
That’s why I have always believed that forms are just for “teaching” and “learning” only. It should not be used for “practicing”. When one “practice”, he should tear that form apart and modify according to his main purpose.
[QUOTE=PangQuan;752729]modern wushu definately has value. many of the training exersizes are the same as of old.[/QUOTE]
There are some difference. Take the double jumping kick for example. The TCMA way will bend the 2nd kicking leg with knee touching the chest and then kick out. The modern Wushu way will just swing the 2nd kicking leg out without much bending first. TKD is also very much emphasised on retracting that leg to the maximum before kicking out. I just don’t see that in modern Wushu.
Hi Golden Arhat,
[QUOTE=golden arhat;752667]a punch is a punch no ? and a kick is a kick so surely wushu must have some value (look at old school nan quan and in alot of places u can see how it applies) [/quote]
Interesting that you would mention that “a punch is a punch and a kick is a kick”. However, this quote (originally from the words of Bruce Lee I believe) is taken out of context IMHO. This is a quote that is paraphasing a Ch’an Buddhist statement. It applies to the beginning of a journey into spiritual pursuit process. What about the following part a punch is not a punch, and a punch is still a punch? The moral is we can not take things out of the context which is what modern wushu as a whole is about - taking things out of context all the time to fit where it wants to be. This also relates to what I pointed out. The lady clearly have not a clue about the fundamentals and principles of Fanzi the way she did it. Honestly if she does, she properly would lose. Judging from the way that she is doing it, she will never understand those and yes, she will always be at the level of punch is a punch and a kick is a kick (sloppy at best) despites of the medals she won. True Kung Fu is not in the winning. The ability to understand losing is kung fu 101.
if they labeled this better and made it clear that it is nothing more than a sport ?
You know no gymnist ever complains about a floor routine not being traditional or whatever because it is not within gymnastic’s culture to have a floor routine specifical designed or dedicated to the ancestors of the “sport”. They only focus on the technical components which is pretty universal in their sport. Now if wushu create it’s own floor routine and all without riding the tail coats of true Kung Fu systems and quit altering traditional fundamentals and principles at will, there shouldn’t be a problem at all. We won’t be having this conversation. It is these opportunistic behaviors of modern wushu as a “sport” that I am mostly aganist.
(btw i also find badminton helps my training reflexes etc)
what then ?
can u admire the speed the athletisicsm
Allow me to be blunt… if admiration of athleticism is the inspiration or why you are in martial arts, then I am afraid you might be doing it for the wrong reason and your attainment will be limited.
wushu is not some evil force
modern wushu is the malicious intent of the PROC (particularly Chairman Mao) of fragmentation by sportification of martial academia that sees TCMA splitted into 2 divisions - modern wushu and San Shou (the sport that wasn’t meant to be for civilian in the first place). When the ROC promoted TCMA as Guo Shu (National Arts), it’s one identity (of form and fighting) not 2 bas tardized halves. Yes, wushu is evil period. Don’t be fooled by it. 
BTW, check out this clip of praying mantis.
There is all that’s is about to convey a fighting style without all those crazy swinging and posturing a la modern wushu. A farce like modern wushu is still just a farce.
Regards
Mantis108
nice kick
If you look at the vid posted by Mantis 108 at about 10 seconds he comes up off the ground with a nice kick that reminds me of a mantis kick.
Good leg power
[QUOTE=PangQuan;752729]modern wushu definately has value. many of the training exersizes are the same as of old.
i myself practiced modern wushu for several years, i just got to a point when i would much rather be doing something else with my training time than modern sets.
it felt like a waste of time to me.
i would be there practicing my comp. long fist or something similar and just kinda looking at the heavy bag. near drooling actually. i realized i was wasting my time and not working towards my actual goals.
jean claud van damme (sp) started with bellet, sure it helped him out, but what if he had started with Muay thai instead?
but what it all comes down to is love. what do you love to do? if you dont love to fight, why bother trying? if you love the explosive and dynamic, electric feel of practicing a very intense modern wushu set…well thats what you should focus on.
to me…love is the answer.[/QUOTE]
i love both
i love valetudo a whole lot more
but at the same time i love wushu
i find it enhances my practise and my life in all areas (well except when it comes to relationships 
LOL)
when i fight i do well
and if you watch alot of the time you will see me incorporate wushu into my fighting (e.g the wushu sidekick)
i dont subscribe to mantis 108’s view of wushu as EVIL
it is a sport and it helps alot of ppl
[QUOTE=golden arhat;752746]i love both
i love valetudo a whole lot more
but at the same time i love wushu
i find it enhances my practise and my life in all areas (well except when it comes to relationships LOL) [/QUOTE]
then your doing exactly what you should be. i also love the sidekick
Hi Firepalm,
[QUOTE=firepalm;752699]While I may not agree with your opinions, I understand your passion. I too love TCMA but do not take the same view as yourself in terms of Modern Wushu. Modern Wushu is not a whole representation of CMA merely a portion of it and a fairly small one at that. [/quote]
Thank you for the undertanding. Well, I may be too negative about modern wushu. But I just called it as I see it. So…
Where I believe the traditional mind set such as yourself are wrong is to point to the Modern Wushu community and claim that is solely making them look bad. As I see it CMA is an umbrella term referring to all the aspects of itself including the Traditional Styles, Internal Styles, San Shou & Modern Wushu. And Modern Wushu is really only a small portion of that, the vast majority is still the Traditional Chinese Martial Arts. But when I hear so many traditional CMA proponents moan about how Modern Wushu is a dancing art with no practical this & that and making them (the TCMA community) look bad, I ask how many of them actually go out and prove what TCMA can do? If the TCMA is such a valid fighting art then why aren’t they out there proving it to the world? Here in Vancouver we have a lot of good traditional Sifu but truth is we have even more substandard Sifu who do no more then run ‘forms’ schools. In my opinion these guys are doing more of a disservice to the TCMA community then any Modern Wushu player by perpetuating substandard CMA and passing it off as a valid fighting art.
Well, I hear you. I don’t blame modern wushu for the demise of traditional Kung Fu. You are right that traditional Kung Fu is largely responsible for the situation itself.
Someone such as the woman shown doing the Fantsi, while it may not be to your liking, has trained countless hours and definitely trained much harder then your average Chinatown Kung Fu player. Now she has not trained application because she is a member of a professional team that is trained specifically for an artistic sport based on CMA but within the context of her sport she would be considered highly skilled. I won’t try to validate what she, or any other Modern Wushu person, does in terms of a fighting art because there’s no need it’s a sport an artistic expression if you will of one aspect of CMA.
Please understand that it is not a subjective like or dislike of her performance. It is with certain understanding of the Fanzi quan fundamentals and principles that I critiqued her performance. It’s an objective process. The training of Fanziquan as I have compared notes with my Fanzi friend is remarkably similar to praying mantis. We were both amazed by the fact that he trained in Beijing and I training in Hong Kong from 2 very different styles being far apart but shared so much commonality in Kung Fu approach. Traditional arts are of one heart beat regardless of styles (essentially, there is no such a thing as external or internal styles IMHO).
And why is it more TCMA proponents don’t actually get out there and prove what they can do? Some have ventured into San Shou, and oddly when that happens a lot of TCMA persons will start again pointed fingers and saying oh that’s not ‘Kung Fu’! I honestly believe because the vast majority can’t (don’t get me wrong there are definitely some that are highly skilled). In my opinion many Chinatown Kung Fu types would get their heads handed to them by your average boxer or MMA practitioner.
Personally, I like MMA formats such as Pride or UFC for TCMA to test the skill. I believe San Shou is too limited for TCMA but it’s better than nothing. If Kung Fu people don’t take Kung Fu seriously, what can we say? Many Chinese parents want their kids to have the opportunity to do all things Chinese which of course includes Kung Fu. They don’t intend for them to actually learn fighting. The Sifus usually take these kids on without seriously discussing it through with all parties involved. As for fight training, the problem is that a lot of old styles Sifus don’t understand there is a lot of commonality between MMA and Kung Fu fight training methodologies. We can definitely “cross train” in MMA methodology (ie the inclusion of ground fighting).
All of that being said I truly believe TCMA has a lot to offer and to me not just as a fighting art but in terms of a cultural heritage. The TCMA proponents, such as yourself, if they are so worried about the damage Modern Wushu is doing should be out there showing it’s true value of TCMA.
Like I said I do what I can and as long as I can. Whether others see it or not, well that’s their Karma. So be it.
Regards
Mantis108
Golden Arhat says “a punch is a punch”, but the real problem here is that those aren’t punches!! How on earth can you talk about her intent when she so obviously has none? Her shots have no direction, no energy and no focus. As I always say to my students “the end position is less important than how you got there”. Obviously, if you get there in the right fashion then your end position will be good, but you can get a perfect end position with an absolutley HORRIBLE movement (such as much of that first clip).
I must agree with Mantis 108, what is the purpose of describing this as Fantzi, which it clearly isn’t? If they just had open floor competition and she wanted to incorporate some Fantzi elements, then fine, but why portray this as Fantzi?
It is true, there are many bad Kung Fu performers, but the big difference is that we will acknowledge it if they’re bad, we won’t zealously defend them just because they’e Kung Fu guys. We might make excuses for them (after all, Kung Fu competitions tend to be more inclusive and less elitist than Wushu ones), but we won’t say they’re great when they’re obviously not.
Golden Arhat, there was no Wushu whatsoever in that Choujiao clip, you REALLY need to do some more research on traditional TCMA, and learn that there is a world of material every bit as exciting as Wushu, but much more interesting and far more functional.
Is Wushu evil? Few things are evil in and of themselves, but it has an insidious effect on CMA as a whole, and more importantly it has ripped the fighting heart from CMA, which for many of us is unforgiveable.
Good comments on both sides of the “isle”
[SIZE=“4”][
That little kid was great!!![/size]:eek:
His MMA was sick! I would be careful if that kid came at me!!!
Wushu has it's place
Traditional MA has it's Place
MMA has it's Place....
IMHO
JDK
[QUOTE=golden arhat;752347]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7YRvrB0gHA
now sure the head movement is exaggerated
but if u changed that who else thinks this set is just as good if not better than most ???[/QUOTE]
martially speaking it is utterly useless in my opinion. the intention is in all the wrong places.
Ben Gash
Few things are evil in and of themselves, but it has an insidious effect on CMA as a whole, and more importantly it has ripped the fighting heart from CMA, which for many of us is unforgiveable.
wow I did not know Wushu was so powerful as to rip the fighting heart out of CMA. That’s funny!
youknowwho
A little late but nonetheless for you know who
Almost all the modern wushu forms have a forward running followed by a jumping outside crescent kick in the air.
Sounds to me like the jump outside crescent kick which originally can be found in several traditional Northern styles like Cha Quan, Hua Quan, etc…
The direction and angle make no combat sense that futher prove that the Wushu forms designer didnot consider combat situation in the 1st place.
Guess you’ll have to check with persons that do those traditional styles for verification on the intended purpose!
the thing about strikes whether they’re kicks or punches is to not telegraph them.
when you run in a big circle to get momentum for a kick, you are essentially dancing not practicing martiality. In the traditional versions of outside crescent junp kicks , tornado kicks etc etc, they are generally done from one move to the next or from a standing start so to speak and are not telegraphed.
they do tend to be finishing moves though, particularly for people that are longer in the tooth.
word.
the element of suprise via explosive drive is much more practicle then running in a circle pretending your a crane :rolleyes:
if you practice hard you can do a jumping outside crescent from any position pretty much.