I’m new to the style and would like to know what are the differences between northern and southern fighting style.
Northern & Southern Kung Fu
Nothern kungfu was developed by people in the military and saw ample combat usage with or without weapons. Southern Kung fu was developed by farmers and trades people or were derived from introductory routines in Northern Kung Fu. Needless to say, Northern Kung Fu is the better of the two.
Ego_Extrodinaire - Nothern kungfu was developed by people in the military and saw ample combat usage with or without weapons.
Although I have never heard of “NOTHERN” kungfu it sounds most interesting.
Ego_Extrodinaire - Southern Kung fu was developed by farmers and trades people …
Being totally ignorant of historical facts concerning the outcome of combat involving irregular troops versus conventional forces is really inexcusable, even though you do live in New Jersey. Perhaps a brief review of the American Revolution would serve as a reasonable starting point given your obviously diminutive intellect.
Ego_Extrodinaire - … or were derived from introductory routines in Northern Kung Fu.
A statement that is totally false on its face. Prior to the formal codification of any system, a system exists as a series of inter related parts with the whole being known only to the adherents of the system proper. Even someone from New Jersey should be capable of grasping the significance of this fact. Really now, your excuse of being from New Jersey is getting played a bit thin, would you not agree my friend?
Ego_Extrodinaire - Needless to say, Northern Kung Fu is the better of the two.
The only element that is needless in your post is the post itself. Given that this is a Southern Forum, your clearly stated, and equally defective, reasoning leads to the only possible conclusion that you are a troll, of no experience, no skill, and possess very little personal worth, or value, in any sense of the word. Perhaps a retreat into your martial arts comic book collection would be in order as it is Summer time and I am certain camp takes up most of your usual play time. There are Summer Camps for the children in New Jersey, aren’t there?
Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.
Hideous don’t pay attention to ego. Our dear friend came into a southern school a while back and basically after disprespecting the class got schooled by some southern folks and had a grudge ever since. Pity him. Such an example of martial virtue.:rolleyes:
NorthernMantis – Hideous don’t pay attention to ego.
Ah, but he craves attention as “It is better to be despised than ignored.” and I really do not want to cause him any harm. He seems so painfully fragile.
NorthernMantis - Our dear friend came into a southern school a while back and basically after disprespecting the class got schooled by some southern folks and had a grudge ever since.
Well then, kudos all around are certainly in order. Kudos to Ego for having the courage of his convictions, even if they were shown to be ill founded. Kudos also for those who provided him with proof of the falsity of his beliefs without resorting to beating him to death, or causing him permanent injury.
NorthernMantis - Pity him.
I do believe your advice is sagacious my friend. It is a great pity indeed when a person resorts to grudges and either demonizes or glorifies a system when really it all resolves down to the man in the moment.
NorthernMantis - Such an example of martial virtue.
Over time, I have found that it is possible to learn from those providing a perfect example of what not to do, or what not to be, as it is to learn from a perfectly correct example of thought, word or deed. Perhaps then, we can rehabilitate Ego by holding him forth as an example of the wrong approach. Ego will be provided with the attention he craves and the intended lesson will be properly conveyed. A win – win situation I do believe it is called these days. Good fortune to you NorthernMantis on your martial art journey.
Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.
I have heard that Northern Styles developed more for military type combat because the North was constantly being invaded by Mongol raiders.
The Southern Styles on the other hand developed more as a means of personal self-defense in the street.
I don’t know how much truth there is to this argument however. It’s often used as a justification to bad mouth Southern arts as being less effective.
But historically it seems to make sense.
As far as physical differences, well it really hard to make any generalization. You’ll often here the term “Southern Hands and Northern Legs” but this statement is very misleading as there are Southern and Northern arts violate this.
Fu-Pow - I have heard that Northern Styles developed more for military type combat because the North was constantly being invaded by Mongol raiders.
The Southern Styles on the other hand developed more as a means of personal self-defense in the street.
For the sake of discussion let us accept your stated understanding as the fact of the matter. Given the time frames generally attributed to the development of most TCMA systems what do we know? We know that what was considered a military type combative encounter in times past qualifies as a street encounter in today’s world. Even at that, bows & arrows, spears, swords & knives, would hardly cut it in some US cities. In a very real sense what once was military combat is now no more than young thugs in action before obtaining their first firearm, agreed?
As for styles being created with the emphasis on street combat, what has changed? The introduction of firearms most certainly, and beyond that?
I suppose that taken as a whole the streets of today is still the street, or Southern concern, with the exception of being more lethal and perhaps reaching or superseding the lethality of yesterday’s military battle field. Looks like either North or South fits the needs of the environment.
However Fu-Pow, I do not really believe you are necessarily advocating for any system or set of systems. I think you are firmly in the camp of it all coming down to the individual regardless of method.
Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.
Hmmm…interesting perspective and some good points.
Another thing to look at is the weapons favored by northern and southern styles.
For example, the trademark weapon of southern styles are the butterfly knives, you don’t ever see these in Northern Systems. These are essentially close combat weapons ideal for fighting in alleyways or inside. Now try to do the same thing with double broadswords. It just doesn’t work as well.
You’ll also notice that Southern Styles generally have shorter more compacted hand movements (I’m thinking specifically of Hung Ga or Southern Mantis or Southern White Crane) These are ideal for fighting a confined space like an alley way or small room.
Again this is a generalization and I’m not really advocating either way.
Fu Pow:
Your post regarding the butterfly knives is well noted, however that being said how would you explain the staff differences.
Northern staffs are typically in the 6’ range more or less while the traditional single-head southern staff can reach up to 9’.
Just something to think about. Why such long staffs in the south (for all concerned please keep the remarks to kung fu and no physical prowess references).
Peace.
Ahhh…good question…and I believe I have an answer. Think about boats. The traditional skiffs and boats that people use along the river uses a very long stick (identical to the rat tail staff thick on one end, thin on the other) to push themselves along the river. You typically don’t see these kinds of boats (or sticks) in the north. Just a guess.
Southern styles using long poles never seemed that much of a good generalization to me…agreed, you have the dragon pole in many southern styles (wing chun for example), but you also have styles in which the pole is actually shorter to what is often found in northern styles…for example, in my southern white crane we use staff that don’t go higher than your eyebrows: they are, however, really thick and quite heavy. I think the question doesn’t even qualify: you can’t really fight in a confined environment with a staff, whether it reaches your eyebrows or is 9 feet long. The staff is just not made for confined environment whatever its lenght, because to be efficient with a staff you need room to operate: the tip of the staff is dangerous, not the central part. We have a white crane sequence training someone barehanded against someone wielding a staff, and during all the sequence of all the barehanded guy’s duty can be summed up in two concepts: avoid the extremities, and block any staff movement by staying close enough to the wielder to be able to stop it from the midsection.
However, your idea about the long poles coming from the ones used to maneouver (sp?) boats (it’s still done this way in some parts of China) is a very seducive one
Fu-Pow: Another thing to look at is the weapons favored by northern and southern styles.
Historical speculation and examination certainly are interesting pass times. Those who wish to engage in this type of activity should be free to do so. For my part, such things are of little to no interest. Art is alive. Therefore, it must speak to each succeeding generation in a voice that is recognized by said generation. Otherwise, art ceases to live and degrades to hardly more than a minor comment about some aspect of the past.
Long is not too long, and short is not too short.
Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous
Hideous-
Sometimes its hard to get the “feeling” of what people are saying on the internet. Pardon me, but you sound a bit condescending and above us all. Should I add you to my Ignore List or do you have something factual to contribute?
Fu-Pow: Sometimes its hard to get the “feeling” of what people are saying on the internet.
Agreed, the written word is a very difficult medium to communicate in. The lack of subtle nuances alone causes much misinterpretation or misunderstanding.
Fu-Pow: Pardon me, but you sound a bit condescending and above us all.
I give you my pardon Fu-Pow. You [hear] condescending and you [hear] the tone of being above [you all] because you, in fact, own it. Otherwise, you would not misinterpret my words through your intellectual filter as such.
Fu-Pow: Should I add you to my Ignore List …
I have a better idea Fu-Pow, I have added you to mine.
Fu-Pow: … or do you have something factual to contribute?
For you, I have nothing, see above.
Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.
According to ‘oral’ history of Southern Siu-Lum, when the Northern Temple was raized, the loyalists fled South and revamped and refined what they knew inorder to combat the Chings. Southern systems are more noted for their various gings, close infighting, and aggesiveness. I am not saying there aren’t refined Northern styles,quite the contrary. Bagua,Hsing-Yi,Ba-Ji, etc are quite refined in both tactics and faht ging. Although Southern Gung-Fu was taught TO laymen in order to fight the Ching, it was not developed BY them. In fact, when you study both, you will realize that they have more in common then one might think. It;s not about style, it’s about attributes. Since the Siu-Lum Temple was a melting pot, there are many commonalities in both North and South. What separates styles is not so much level of technique, but personal preference. To make a blanket statement only means that you haven’t been exposed to enough qualified practitioners. There are alot of “Sifus” out there teaching ‘bad Karate with kewl claws’ under the moniker, kung-Fu. Caveat emptor.
TenTigers - According to ‘oral’ history of Southern Siu-Lum, when the Northern Temple was raized, the loyalists fled South and revamped and refined what they knew inorder to combat the Chings.
And just whose oral history would that be Ten Tigers, an objective, disinterested, impartial 3rd party of one of the Northern brood?
TenTigers - Although Southern Gung-Fu was taught TO laymen in order to fight the Ching, it was not developed BY them.
According to your reasoning, prior to the introduction of Buddhism into China proper Southern Gung fu did not exist. This is tantamount to a declaration that prior to approximately 560 AD there was no organized, refined, systemic method of combat in the Southern portions of China. Do you stand by this understanding or have I mistaken your position all together?
TenTigers - In fact, when you study both, you will realize that they have more in common then one might think.
I disagree. Southern styles do not typically employ a floating root. As the root formation is the foundation for the vast majority of power production methods this difference alone puts a wide gulf between the respective systems.
TenTigers - It;s not about style, it’s about attributes.
I am not at all sure what you mean by attributes. Please define and or explain your use of this term.
TenTigers - Since the Siu-Lum Temple was a melting pot, there are many commonalities in both North and South.
Actually, Shaolin constituted a minority and much more recent melting pot as you term it. There are a fairly wide array of methods that underwent refinement in the Shaolin Temples, according to some. According to the first documented Shaolin Monk in America, who has been here for several decades, there was very little martial about the temples as a whole. Since he is in fact a Shaolin Monk not of the Communist China manufactured variety, an accomplished martial artist in his own right, I do believe there is some merit in his position.
The Taoist Temples are something else all together and far, far older institutions than anything associated with Buddhism.
TenTigers - What separates styles is not so much level of technique, but personal preference.
I disagree. The differences are very real, subject to empirical evidence based validation, and personal preference has nothing to do with the principles inherent in a given hand. Expression of the hand is another thing all together.
TenTigers - To make a blanket statement only means that you haven’t been exposed to enough qualified practitioners.
And you have just made yet another in a long series of blanket statements. How do you reconcile your stated position with the fact that you violate your own tenet?
TenTigers - There are alot of “Sifus” out there teaching ‘bad Karate with kewl claws’ under the moniker, kung-Fu. Caveat emptor.
Agreed Ten Tigers and your caveat emptor should be burned into the mind of every prospective student.
Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.
WHat is the difference between northern and southern kugnfu? Maybe I can help a little.
This is from my experince in what I have seen.
Note: There are some execptions to both northern and southern.
Northern styles tend to have quick and mobile footwork that moves all around the place while southern styles tend to be more rooted and stable.
Example:
(Northern) If you have seen northern mantis forms like 7 star mantis you would see a lot of hopping and stomping plus lot of moving foward. The forms take up alot of space.
(Southern) If you have seen wing chun or hung gar you will see that they generally don’t move much relying more on a solid base than dodgy footwork. Heck some don’t even move at all. My friend showed me siu lim tau and you could practically do that form in the kicthen.
Not all but alot of northern styles rely on or have alot more kicks and elongated movements and are also known as longfists styles (with choy lay fut as one of those exceptions). I have noted that some southern styles are more compact and rely more on fists including a solid base rather than kicks.
Example:
(Northern) Tam Tui,tan tuy (another style with similar spelling but has the same Chinese characters), basically any Muslim Chinese style, northern shaolin (which incorporated Muslim Chinese kicking methods like tan tuy), northern eagle claw, lo han, etc
(Southern) Win chun, southern mantis, bak mei, etc.
Another thing that I’ve noticed with northern and southern forms is that northern forms generally have to land in the same spot where they began.
The reason for the differences? Geography. In north China the ground is more rocky with a dryer terrain. Allowing for easier movement. Thus enabling the person abilty to move and kick with a better degree of balane.
In southern China the ground is more moist and muddy. It rains a lot and it’s marshy. The climate is warmer. Since the ground is softer it would be more dangerous for someone to kick with out falling or move around much at all. Thus I can see where there is a need for a more solid base.
I met a wing chun instructor who went to the southern part of China before and discussed the differences between northern and southern styles with me. It was pretty funny because he joked by saying that there’s alot of marsh with high grass in the south and if I thought that he would jump around like in mantis with all that grass I was crazy because a snake could jump out and bite him.
Well it’s not much but I hope I contributed something.
Good post Northern Mantis. I think sometimes that people fail to realize the context in which their art developed. Some of it is cultural but obviously it can be geographical as well.
No prob FP.
I was also told that northern Chinese tend to be taller and slimmer, a definite advantage if your a long fist stylist.
It is true that some development in the Southern Styles occured in conjunction with anti-Qing rebel movements.
-FJ