who?
depends on what you mean by better.
Basically, Southern styles are BEST at achieving the following criteria!
- spend more time on lion dancing
- damaging your hands & body through conditioning exercises
- becoming more “stiff” then before you started your training
- Getting all hung up about the cantonese translation of the shape of a hand, such as tiger’s claw, dragon’s claw, snake head, leapord paw, tortise shell etc
- doing very impressive form work but cannot fight
- doing the same ole moves year after year after year and then being told that one day you’ll know how to use it
- doing warm up exercises that include 100 push ups, 100 sit ups, 100 star jumps such that you’re totally exhausted before training.
- punching & kicking the air and at times hitting stationary targets
- not sparring very often
- be told that those techniques are actually very very deadly.
What? I dont no where you seen southern
arts but you have not seen much of them.
- Southern dont dance much, this is usally found in the Northern arts.
- We dont damage our hands, we do condition them, but I wouldnt think you would be able to tell by just looking at them.
- I agree, we dont have much of the fairy dancing stuff found in much of the Northern arts, but we are anything but stiff.
3.We dont get hung up much on hand shapes, and we dont get hung up on looking like the animal, as found in the Nothern arts. (Northern is much more for show) - Impressive form work? No! you have them switched, Nothern are the ones who want to impress you with those long movements.Good for show, but very hard to fight with.
- Yes, we do the same move year after year. They must become 2nd nature if you are going to be able to use them for selfdefense. Northern may learn 100’s but cant use any of them.
- The warm ups in traditional Southern schools are kept to the systems movements. Not much push ups ect, unless the teacher has not much to teach. Northern may spend a hour or so doing streching movements so they are loose enough to throw those sorry high kicks and long useless movements.
- Most of southern training is with a partner, or bags, wooden dummy ect.
- True not much what you would call sparing. Southern is not much for sparring, and more for selfdefence or fighting. sparring is for fun and show. Not to useful in the real world.
- Do learn some deadly techniques, but this is found in all high level martial arts. Hard for Nothern to understand, much of their art is for entertainment, and sparring, and not very useful in defending themselfs.
Just my opinion, and before you go on telling me I dont know what Northern arts are? I have studied them 30 years ago, and have been all over ther world watching them. Yes; there are some good Nothern fighters out there. But much of what they do is Western kick boxing. There movements are good for excercise, or in the ring type fighting. As long as there are rules.
AGAIN THIS IS ONLY MY OPINION!!!
Joe
Xingyiquan(Hsing-i Chuan) is a northern style(at least the more traditional xingyi styles are) and I beleive that xingyiquan can beat any southern style, and any other style of martial arts in the world for that matter(except for maybe baguazhang(Pa Kua Chang), of course). We do not have the over extended long forms in xingyi. Don’t have those sorry high kicks either.
I studied Hsing-Yi when I went to high school in Okinawa. I don’t know who my sifu’s sigung was, but I’m pretty sure the lineage went through Taiwan.
The forms we practised were:
Lien Kwan Quan
Ba Su Quan
Ba So Quan
5 element
Bird Form
I’m not sure as to the branch of hsing yi either; but I’m pretty sure it’s not HeiBei (sp?).
I’ve seen a lot of the techniques of Hsing Yi in the mantis style I’m currently studying- another northern style. Actually, the Tam Tui form I’m currently doing (Sup Sei Lo- cantonese because our lineage passed through HK via Chin Wu); has a lot of Hsing Hi techniques.
As far as which style is better- i think it’s totally up to the practisioner. There are many good Hung Gar & Choi Lay Fut fighters; just as there are many Hsing Yi & northern style fighters. Every style is different- you can’t generalize a bunch of styles because of geographic area, every teacher is different- you can’t generalize every teacher of a particular style, every student is different- you can’t base your opinion of a style on one, or a few, practisioners.
I like the training theories of the south: strong stances, strength building exercises, power, low kicks, conditioning.
I also like the training theories of the north: fluidity, quickness, flexibility.
Styles strive to be complete- teaching a well-rounded cirriculum; but sometimes in order to be a more complete martial artist we need to stretch beyond the style, and include training techniques of other styles. When I say this, I’m referring strictly to working out and body conditioning, I think going on a technique-buffet from a bunch of different styles can often lead to: “jack of all trades, master of nothing”. However, Southern stylists should be able to kick as high and move as fast as northern stylists- for it will help them. Northern stylists should be able to generate as much power behind a strike (with arms as hard) as southern stylists, with stances just as deep. I know most of this doesn’t apply to hsing yi. In my opinion, Hsing Yi’s strongest asset is it’s transition from form to fighting. All martial artists should strive to be able to effectively use the techniques they learn in fighting situations.
Sorry if I sounded arrogant, I know that was immature. I just said that to get a reaction, as I am currently researching Xingyiquan, and I was trying to find out if there any weaknesses to the style. I would also like information on the differences between the Northern and Southern Tiger styles. Thanks, and sorry 
I’m not sure about northern tiger style- I’m unfamiliar with it. I can say that the Tiger half of Hung Gar Tiger-Crane is characterized by low stances, powerful ripping claws. From what I’ve heard the tiger is the close range techniques, and that the crane is responsible for the long, circular punches.
The tension sets that Hung Gar is famous for is attributed to the Tiger.
I understand what you mean about Hsing Yi; and how you’re making it an issue of research as opposed to trying to make cocky statements. The only things I was trying to mention are:
A. Not every student of the system is weakness-free, just because the system was designed that way.
B. There are many schools that can make the claim that they are complete (ie. Mantis, eagle claw, almost any cma).
Lost_Disciple
Based on the forms Ba Su Quan and Ba So Quan it would seem your lineage leads back to Hung I-Hsiang from Taiwam.
Hello-
All systems have their merit.
I find it a little unusual that those of you who attend soutern schools do not Lion Dance.
Lion Dance is of very high importance in the southern traditions and is less likely to be found in a Northern school.
Lion Dance refines and hones ones Kung Fu skills by the doing of it.
Please feel free to check out what small information we have at our school site on the connection of Lion Dance to Kung fu training.
It’s at: www.mts.net/~jamieson
Peace all
Kung Lek
Southern school is ALL about lion dancing. Their whole school of KF is geared towards performance. Shake it to the left… shake it to the right… It’s great to watch. They can’t fight, but who cares, just sit back and enjoy the show!
Historically northern styles have been more dominant than the southern ones in full contact events and challenges. And generally the champions of the northern styles are known China wide but the southern ones are normally only known in their particular areas.
JoeSmoe, what northern styles did u study? Maybe u studied Wushu stuff in which case it is understandable why u think it’s crap. And im my experience, southern schools does do more lion dancing stuff.
I studied a few of the Shaolin Northern Arts based on like most the five animals. I didnt mean to say i think they are crap. And yes there has been many known Nothern famous fighters. Anyway we hear more about those fighters. Most of this is self promotion, or there large school or organizations promoting this. I merely responed to The WILD MAN’s comments. I am not going to duck anything. I do not think Norhtern arts are geared more towards the fighting aspects of the arts. I think it the opposite. If you are Nothern you will think they are. I dont.
Years ago when i was taking some of these arts i thought that most of what they taught was theory. It did not appear practical in any shape or form. I am refering to the ones that count on high kicking as 50 -60% of there system. Works good in these contests! Cause there is rules! Anytime you only have 1 leg on the ground you are not doing things very smart. Anytime you have to make a big wide movement to hit someone it is not wise. Again in contest, you will get away with it. If you are fighting someone who fights the same way, it will work good.
NOW! If this is what you think is good, GO FOR IT! I dont care!! Im sure your teacher can come up with thousands of reasons I am wrong. I dont care what he says. This is my oppinion. But one thing I have noticed through the years. As these masters of the Nothern arts get higher level in their art, they tend to look more like the short hand arts. They take out the useless movement, and look like they could be from a short hand southern branch. Again this is what I think. You will notice they make their kicks lower and shorter. The range of movement is shorter. The hands are 80% of any good fighting art. Legs are used for a good root, so you can transfer the power to the hands. The movement is as short as possible, so as to not create openings. Yes; there is some Nothern systems that take advantage of this. But they are mostly the so called internal Northern systems.
Further more usually when someone refers to themselfs as the “WILDMAN”, they are not wild at all. And lion dancing, would change from school to school. Some teach it, and some do not.
Joe
Joe Smoe2
You can say all you like about Northern arts, but to say that I’m not wild really hurts my pride. I grow a long beard, ride a Harley, booze out all day and pick fights at the local bar. But on Sunday - i go to church and conduct sunday school - teaching kids how to be nice to one another. In the evenings I just go on a wild rioting rampage. The local law enforcement agency give me the name Wild Man Riot for gooood reasons!
Northern arts have VERY little high kicks. The legs are used to take out the opponents balance, knees, shins and also used for locking when you’re in close. And you learn it at an early stage. Classical Northern styles are “no nonsense” in their approach. On the other hand Southern styles tend to be very stiff and impractical.
How’s it goin peoples? Stirred up a bit of a hornets nest have we? I can see good and bad in both but I think that to say one is better than the other is a bit harsh. It all comes down to what you want from your art cause if you wanna fight youll learn to fight regardless of whether its north or south.
A lot of responsibility is placed on the sifu as basically not everyone wants the same thing from the art, as I’m sure you all are aware. Personally I want to be able to defend myself and my family in the quickest possible way!
Now if you wanna get technical the southern styles were supposedly taught in the shortest time possible as fighting was the main function for learning due to the rebellion. The northern styles having more time to master their arts placed more emphasis on the softer side.
Anyway this does make for an interesting evening and this little black duck from the wonderful land of OZ is in no way an expert but I do enjoy a good stir.
In case anyone was wondering I study southern -jow ga- and my wife who is sitting here next to me studies northern -seven star
mantis- and would hit me if I said anything bad about it!!!
I hope this debate does continue as it can only broaden our minds.
One reason I study, and love, 7 Star Preying Mantis so much is that it’s pretty much a mix of both northern and southern, eventhough it’s called northern.
Lo Kwang Yu took the lineage through Chin Mo, which went as far south as Macau.
At my school they teach lion dancing -though I’m not sure if the lion dancing was somehow passed by Hung Gar through Chin Wu.
I think it’s useless comparing northern styles to southern styles. A style by style comparison would be easier. Not all aspects of northern styles resemble the wushu compulsory chang quan form. Not all southern styles can be typified by Hung Gar and Wing Chun.
Fukien is pretty southern, correct? Yet Fukien white crane is noted for long, flowing techniques- as well as some high kicks. Snake, as far as I know, is another southern style- this has acrobatics that aren’t found in other southern styles (flying leg scissors). Hsing Yi is a good example of a northern style that doesn’t “follow the rules”. I don’t see why people want to split the larger group of CMA into 2, bitter, smaller groups of northern and southern. If you’re going to split it up, split it up on a style by style basis. Generalization and prejudice have never done anybody any good.
BTW- does anybody else take shuai chiau alongside another CMA? I’ve found that this has given me a WHOLE new outlook on technique, applications, and visualization.
Hey WILDMAN!
Yea; I seen the same movie, back in the 60’s, and then Bill Jack came in and ruined his day. I always wondered about Billie Jack too? When he went out to kick butt, and I do mean KICK! he always took his shoes off? Why? WILDMAN; You do watch to much TV, but it would make a good movie. I mean your life.
I believe there is some good stuff in the Nothern systems. Im just sticking up for the southern systems. I dont like the southern stuff with the long range of movement. I dont care where its from. Just dont say these short hand southern boys cant fight. They may knock you off your Harley some night. And you think they a stiff cause you dont understand the training. Dont let your beard grow to long! It makes for a good handle to pull you off your Harley.
Maybe sometime will have a beer!
Joe
Okay, I have the answer to the question of northern vs southern. It’s a tie!! This is proven in a battle of Ku Yu Jeong (northern shaolin) and Tan Sam (Choy Li Fut). The two talked trash about each other’s style. Northern people said southren arts were too simple and has ridiculous breating excercises. Southern people said " northern style? All the flashy, flying around stuff? One hit and I can knock them down." Well those weren’t the exact words but yeah. One day they fought. The battle lasted 30 mintues. No one got hit. Everytime one would get close to a hit, the other would retreat just enough to get away and vice versa. The two master’s timing and judgement was so great, no one got hit. So they ended up being friends. They made an agreement. Tan Sam was Hong Sing choy li fut by the way. Tan sam said that when his students train good to be top students, he will send them over to Ku Yu Jeong’s northern shaolin school. Ku Yu Jeong said when he trains his students to be top students, he will send them to Tan Sam’s choy li fut school. So this mixing of choy li fut and northern shaolin is how the style " BUK SING CHOY LI FUT" was developed. BUK SING choy li fut, is similar to hong sing, but has wider stances and a few crescent kicks. So this battle that took place in China - documented in the history books- proves that southern and northern styles are equal. =] It was just interesting reading what people thought about northern vs southern. What do you guys think? Cool eh?
That’s a lovely story.
I’d like to see southern mantis up against northern. Both styles are so full of it.
(speaking as a southern mantitioner and hoping not to offend any southern or northern brothers/sisters)
The powers of Kung Fu never fail!
– Hong Kong Phooey
[This message has been edited by David (edited 03-24-2000).]
Joesmoe,
What is this about self promotion? Yes in part it is self promotion but don’t u think that if they did dat then they would have received many challenges? If they managed to keep up these “self promotion” as u say then their skills must have been pretty good to enable them to keep it going.
Please tell us specifically which northern styles did u study that they relied on 60-70% high kicks? I am having a hard time trying to figure out which of the various animal styles relies onb such a high percentage of high kicks. I can only think of wushu style derivatives which IMO are generally total crap. And if u think that these high kicks are used in actual combat then I don’t think ur studies in the northern styles were very deep. Infact, I’d go on to say that u really only have had a very low exposure to northern arts.
I think also someone else along time ago have explained to u why northern styles’ movements start out big and slowly become more compact and smaller as skills improved. Don’t tell us that northern styles become more southern at high level. U make it sound as if southern arts have been on the rite path all along. Training theories are different. The only way to properly tell which is effective is to actually fight and if u read ur kf history abit more, more northern stylists have triumphed over their southern counterparts.
I’ve studied both northern and southern (N. praying mantis, choy lee fut). The training methods and general theories are different, often extremely so. But at a high level there are similarities (flexible, multiple attacks, sensitivity, delivery of ‘ging’ in the movements, etc.).
N. Mantis included a few high kicks in the basic form I learned, but mostly the kicks were at the groin and knees, rarely to the heart level, or the legs were used for hooking, sweeping, etc.
We must remember that there is no superior art, only who the individual fighter is. In general, the northern fighters in the old days were larger and stronger than the southerners. Quite a few of them also practiced Shuai Jiao, too. It’s also possible that in the above-mentioned contests, the northerners won most of the time because perhaps they were better-trained than the southerners who entered those contests.
An example: In the world kuo shu tournament in Taiwan in 1992, the Hong Kong team were Tibetan White Crane stylists. This particular team lost their matches easily to their Taiwanese opponents. The Taiwanese team trained specifically for that lei tai fighting, so were very comfortable and good at it. Does that mean that Tibetan White Crane is no good? Of course not. Different situation, different circumstance, different fighters. BTW, in most matches, the fighters’ ability with Shuai Jiao throwing made all the difference. That particular Hong Kong team seemed unfamiliar with Shuai Jiao.
You can only pit individuals of styles against each other. And it will be different every time. Even if you fought the same guy every day for a year, it would never be exactly the same result, and you would win and lose sometimes.
Jim