i’ve heard that Chi Sim Weng Chun is the original system deriving directly from red boat from wich derived others system of WingTsun…is said tha GranMaster Yip Man studied it but only a little bit bacause it was praticed in Hong Kong by sifu Chu Ching Man and sifu Wai Yan …
it is said that Yip Man only knew the 30% of the system (weng chun)…he didn’t learn nothing from Leung Bik …
I would like to know something moro about it…i’ve read rene ritchie’s book in which he talk about this system…
You can find more information at the following sites.
http://www.wengchun.net/index_e.htm
http://home.vtmuseum.org/articles/meng/chi_sim_history.php
There is also another forum similar to this at:
www.hfy108.com that has a specific board for Chi Sim that might interest you.
I hope these help!
Weng Chun Kuen probably accounts for the dummy (physical dummy itself) and pole in what became Wing Chun, but it is more likely a parent, rather than the sole parent. Many Wing Chun people also had contact with Weng Chun people and vice versa over the generations, so there is a lot of cross polination in some lineages.
Contact Andreas Hoffmann for more.
And take what you’ve been told about percentages with a grain of salt…
From Chu Chong Man - 30%
From Leung Bik…0%
These are still open questions.
Victor, there is also the ‘rumor’ that Yip Man made up the Leung Bik story. You and I both know that Sifu Cheung believes what Yip Man told him. We have seen the passion in his eyes when he talks about Yip Man. He was a young impressionable boy at the time that revered (sp)? the man that took in into his home after his father kicked him out. Yip Man ‘could’ have told him the Leung Bik story (that was already popluar), in order to explain the different teachings he gave him when they were home after class. We may never know. That’s just my thoughts on the subject.
Phil
I firmly believe that also, Phil.
I don’t believe that William Cheung learned TWC in the territories (or wherever)…from some mysterious person(s). And then said that it came from Yip Man.
I’ve seen the passion in his eyes when he’s talked about Yip Man, which as you said…makes me believe him when he says that he learned it from Yip Man.
But where Yip Man got it exactly?
Who knows?
I tend to think that is was a combination of what Yip Man learned from Leung Bik and from Chu Chong Man.
Which differed from what Yip Man learned from Chan Wah Shun.
But again…who really knows?
Hey Victor, I have a chop made for me by Moy Yat. He engraved the characters, “Gou Yahn” on my chop. I always thought that it meant ‘tall man’ because Moy Yat was pretty tall and the Cantonese word for tall is gou. Here’s what I learned when I went to Sifu Hoffman’s site. You’re never to old to learn eh?
"In Hong Kong’s martial arts community, Wai Yan is considered to be a “Go Yan”, often translated as “Superior Person.” A Go Yan is someone that is well respected and revered, . . . . . "
Phil
Originally posted by reneritchie
[B]Weng Chun Kuen probably accounts for the dummy (physical dummy itself) and pole in what became Wing Chun, but it is more likely a parent, rather than the sole parent. Many Wing Chun people also had contact with Weng Chun people and vice versa over the generations, so there is a lot of cross polination in some lineages.
[/B]
Rene,
as “a” parent of Wing Chun Kuen, issue.
since we now know that as a fact with evidents that Lee Man Mau was in the red boat. And Lee Practice White Crane Weng Chun. Since we also know the Wing Chun Kuen Kuit/po in the Red Boat time contain the terms from White CRane Weng Chun.
Since we also know that there a different Weng Chun co exist in the time of Red Boat.
IMHHHHHHHHo, we need to find out which Weng Chun who is who. or contact all the Weng Chun styles which existed in the Red Boat.
That is a facts we have to face and to be fair for everyone.
just some thoughts.
Originally posted by yellowpikachu
since we now know that as a fact with evidents that Lee Man Mau was in the red boat.
I thought the ****herst back we can go with externally verifiable facts is Leung Jan.
What kind of proven, verifiable, factual, irrefutable evidence do we have of anyone on the Red Boats (aside from tradition)?
-Levi
Originally posted by taltos
[B]
I thought the ****herst back we can go with externally verifiable facts is Leung Jan.
What kind of proven, verifiable, factual, irrefutable evidence do we have of anyone on the Red Boats (aside from tradition)?
-Levi [/B]
Simple, just read Chinese Qing dynasty history , Lee Man Mau is as real as Zhen Kuo Fan. and that Jacky Chan. 
you think Zhen Kou Fan and Jacky exist?
Public records and public common knowledge for Chinese who Studied Qing dynasty in 1850 about the Opera Actors revolution in China.
Rene might be even be able tell you where Lee Man Mau Died. who is his wife. ..you want to go dig his grave? The Qing might know too.
BTW. who is Hung Gam Biu? What is Tan Sau Ng’s martial art? IS Yat Chaan really exist? Do you know What kind of proven, verifiable, factual, irrefutable evidence do we have of anyone on the Red Boats (aside from tradition)?
Originally posted by yellowpikachu
Public records and public common knowledge for Chinese who Studied Qing dynasty in 1850 about the Opera Actors revolution in China.
Public records is one thing… public common knowledge is something else entirely. So you are saying that I can DEFINTATELY find PROOF of Lee Man Mau?
Originally posted by yellowpikachu
you want to go dig his grave?
Why would you insult me by insinuating such a revolting, disrespectful thing? I find that heinous and very very uncool. It would be great for everyone if you would not make such horribly disrespectful statements. Thanks.
Originally posted by yellowpikachu
BTW. who is Hung Gam Biu? What is Tan Sau Ng’s martial art? IS Yat Chaan really exist? Do you know What kind of proven, verifiable, factual, irrefutable evidence do we have of anyone on the Red Boats (aside from tradition)?
Uhm… calm down dude. First, I asked you. Second, I never claimed that they DEFINATELY existed. Therefore, I have no need to defend a position I never asserted. You, on the other hand…
Levi,
Public records is one thing… public common knowledge is something else entirely. So you are saying that I can DEFINTATELY find PROOF of Lee Man Mau?
insult? you are soo sensitive.
What’s wrong to dig grave to proof someone was there? according to your post above
Sorry if I hurt your feeling. Please answer me about Tan Sau Ng, Yat Chaan. Hung Gam Biu? tooo.
since I am in a rush to next flight.
Please relax and dont disturb others on this topic and direct it to something different.
so long.
Bye Bye!
Same old same old POVs and related differences.
The quality of the wing chun that each one individually practices is the key to it’s effectiveness. But then there is the question whether something one practices-how much of it - is wing chun.
No one on this list is as much of an authority on Ip man as Ip man himself.
As for Ip Man…he is not around to comment- but very clearly
among other things he told folks that
and
Not paradoxical at all. So arguing with the late Ip Man is a bit pointless since he cannot comment further on what he has already said.
And- regarding William Cheung’s claims on the roots of his considerably different mechanics- they make sense to TWC folks- why not leave it at that. Merely vociferously repeating the same old things dont make them any more objectively tue or convincing. Just makes for more noise
rather than information..
Originally posted by yellowpickachu
[B]insult? you are soo sensitive.
Sorry if I hurt your feeling. Please answer me about Tan Sau Ng, Yat Chaan. Hung Gam Biu? tooo.
Please relax and dont disturb others on this topic and direct it to something different.[/B]
How do you know what I am and am not. Isn’t that SPECULATING? For the record, I am not sensitive, and my feelings weren’t hurt. I was INSULTED. There is a difference. I respect those who have gone before and see no reason to violate a cultural taboo in American AND Chinese culture and consider exhuming a body. It MIGHT be (and here I too am speculating, and I certainly could be wrong) that this was an attempt to take an honest question and make it emotionally charged in order to avoid it alltogether… or it may be something completely different. No worries… it’s not about me anyway 
As to the Tan Sau Ng/Yat Chaan/Hung Gam Biu question… I’ll make you a deal… since neither one of us owes the other anything, we’re on equal footing here. But since you are asking me to prove a claim I never made, and I am asking for information about a claim you DID make, I’ll answer your question when you answer mine. Besides, your question was just my question thrown back at me, and if I had the answer, I wouldn’t waste bandwidth asking, because I would already know.
Originally posted by Vajramusti
[B]The quality of the wing chun that each one individually practices is the key to it’s effectiveness.
No one on this list is as much of an authority on Ip man as Ip man himself.[/B]
Well Said.
-Levi
“And- regarding William Cheung’s claims on the roots of his considerably different mechanics- they make sense to TWC folks- why not leave it at that. Merely vociferously repeating the same old things dont make them any more objectively true or convincing. Just makes for more noise
rather than information…” (Joy)
To you it’s noise - to Phil and I it’s a conversation concerning what we believe at this time. Why not leave it at that?
…
And by the way, Phil.
I actually remember sitting in Moy Yat’s little art room at the school on St. Paul’s Place in Brooklyn around his table one day…with him and with you.
He was working on the chop for you. You only attended his school for just a few months so you and I hardly knew each other at that time. But I remember. Way back around 1977.
And it was “Go Yan”.
He (Moy Yat) always signed his artwork as Moy Go Yan…(meaning “tall man”).
He was 6’ tall. (Big for a Chinese gentleman).
I spent an entire day once with Moy Yat at the Brooklyn Heights Art Show (on the outdoor Brooklyn Heights promenade) helping him sell (and look after) his artwork. Just the two of us that particular day. One of many times I heard him explain to people what “Go Yan” meant. To him…he was simply identifying himself as…Moy, the tall man.
Rene used the word “probably” – and that shows his wisdom. Nothing is sure about WCK history before the Red Boat era, and all we can do is draw conclusions based on oour available info. He also made a good point about cross-pollination – we see that at work even today in WCK. It’s very difficult, in a historical context, to ferret out those sorts of “contributions.”
If we all stick to “possibilites” and “probabilites” when talking about Red Boat and before, I think everyone would get along a whole lot better. And even more importantly, if we stick to “possibilities” and “probablities” in our thinking (instead of “this is the truth”), we’ll all be much happier.
Originally posted by t_niehoff
[B]Rene used the word “probably” – and that shows his wisdom. Nothing is sure about WCK history before the Red Boat era, and all we can do is draw conclusions based on oour available info. He also made a good point about cross-pollination – we see that at work even today in WCK. It’s very difficult, in a historical context, to ferret out those sorts of “contributions.”
If we all stick to “possibilites” and “probabilites” when talking about Red Boat and before, I think everyone would get along a whole lot better. And even more importantly, if we stick to “possibilities” and “probablities” in our thinking (instead of “this is the truth”), we’ll all be much happier. [/B]
Terence, that last paragraph should be hung up in ALL WCK schools.
PR
Originally posted by t_niehoff
And even more importantly, if we stick to “possibilities” and “probablities” in our thinking (instead of “this is the truth”), we’ll all be much happier.
So true on many levels. Perhaps that’s why I’m so happy. 
Regards,
Why was this thread hijacked by tired feuds and positionings?
Lee Man Mau is historical figure written about in Chinese and Western history books. He was leader of the Red Junks during the Red Turban Rebellion, and was trained in White Crane.
No one today really knows what the WCK ancestors on the Red Junks knew. Wong Wah-Bo, Leung Yee-Tai, and Dai Fa Min Kam (and anyone else who played a ‘martial’ role) would have at least had to have had intense martial arts training, although focused on performance rather than application. Since this type of MA isn’t much like WCK, it stands to reason there were other influences on their practical MA (they did, after all, have to defend their boats and protect themselves).
Again, my personal theory remains that Tan Sao Ng passed down the performance MA of the traditional plays and Northern Fist (Shaolin) while an early form (not yet as organized or choreographed) of Weng Chun White Crane came down the migration routes same as the Societies and ended up being trained on the boats by people such as Lee Man-Mao.
We know the above 2 people were on the boats (albeit one generations after the other), and we know the least of what MA they knew (Opera & Shaolin, and White Crane, though they could have known more).
The rest is still up for grabs. Did the Hakka involved cross-train? Did the return migration from Sichuan add something to the mix? Did the linear choreography of Tan Sao Ng’s Shaolin formalize the Everyone will have their theories. Certainly the one true secret lineage from Shaolin, and the ultimate hybrid super art of Snake from Sichuan and the Crane from Fujian have their own Romantic appeals, but belief absent real proof (we have no 8mm films, no complete manuals or registers from that time) are just that–beliefs. Personal, entitled, and a strange thing to spend so much time bickering over.
Toleration of different points of view is surelya problem on this thread as in many others.
Explorations in history are not the hard sciences but it can provide insights for those who care. For some insights into current practice could be possible- varies with individuals.
The wc world is full of the symbolism of the snake and crane…Hendrik’s analysis of that has been an interesting
and informative journey imo. There ae some insights into structure and dynamics for the future.