Weng Chun

Originally posted by reneritchie
[B]Lee Man Mau is historical figure written about in Chinese and Western history books. He was leader of the Red Junks during the Red Turban Rebellion, and was trained in White Crane.

No one today really knows what the WCK ancestors on the Red Junks knew. Wong Wah-Bo, Leung Yee-Tai, and Dai Fa Min Kam (and anyone else who played a ‘martial’ role) would have at least had to have had intense martial arts training,

We know the above 2 people [Tan Sao Ng and Lee Man-Mao] were on the boats (albeit one generations after the other), and we know the least of what MA they knew (Opera & Shaolin, and White Crane, though they could have known more).

The rest is still up for grabs…belief absent real proof (we have no 8mm films, no complete manuals or registers from that time) are just that–beliefs. [/B]

Thank you. That was exactly what I was looking for. I was NOT looking for invitations to go late night grave-digging and defensive questions about claims I’ve NEVER made.

Rene, thanks for doing what thus far couldn’t be done and taking my question for what it was - a question - and offering usable information. Much appreciated.

I have a follow-up question… it has been said by a few people that as far back as we can go reliably is Leung Jan, yet Tan Sao Ng and Lee Man-Mao are prior to that. Is it that Leung Jan is as far back as can be historically verified as practicing WC? It seems that would make the most sense.

-Levi

Leung Jan lived (barely) into the 20th century, and so ‘touched’ the generation that popularized WCK, either in person or through the novels that were written about him. Many, many people knew about him, or had grandparents that had met him, or something. Many more new of him. He was ‘close’.

We can probably be fairly sure there was a Wong Wah-Bo, as both Leung Jan and Fok Bo-Chuen mentioned him. The others get a little more blurry, and before them? It was troubled times, actors used stage-names and were not well considered in society (akin to butchers, prostitutes, and beggars) and Cantonese Opera was never written about to the extent of Beijing Opera. Lee Man-Mao was famous as their leader, but the names of his followers don’t seem to be mentioned in the same books. Maybe they were recorded somewhere, and the records survived, and one day a scholar will explore them more thoroughly and decide to include the other actors. Maybe not. I hope they do.

Hello,

Cool topic.

Just as a bit of input for this topic I can tell you I have a series of chinese soap opera flicks that is based on the life of Leung Jan but also has a fair ammount of Lee Man Mau in it. He was the leader of the rebellion in these old flicks. He was well known and thats why there is a lot of info. out on him. Books movies etc..

Regards,

Jim,

I’d steer clear of those Chinese soap operas for historical accuracy. They’re probably highly entertaining (certainly were when I was growing up) but they tend to take liberties with the facts. Heck, scriptwriters have even mucked around with the storylines of wuxia fiction for entertainment purposes.

CFT,

Its not about historical accuracy! Its just another source that shows how well know this man was and what he was known for! Just like lots of stories are made/written about from many other famous people.

Lee Man Mao was known for his activities in the revolution!

Regards,

I think it important to distinguish between proven facts and hypothetical conclusions. For example, there is no proof Wong Wah Bo ever existed. We have oral traidition from LJ and FBC that both were taught by WWB, and the similarlity between the teaching of both LJ and FBC support the idea that there was a connection between the two. So we can IMO properly CONCLUDE that both may have actually learned from WWB; but that conclusion isn’t proof – it is a conclusion based on certain evidence and assumptions.

Let’s say tomorrow someone finds the WCK scrolls – at is shows (and for the sake of argument, let’s say it is unquestionably accurate) that LJ and FBC were training brothers, and developed WCK on their own, that they concocted the story of the Red Boats, WWB, WCK coming from Shaolin, etc. to provide legitimacy in a culture that reveres tradition. Would this new info in any way change your practice? Or your application? Would this revelation illegitimize your martial art?

History can be an interesting topic, but it has its limitations.

originally posted by t_niehoff
History can be an interesting topic, but it has its limitations.
Part of the limitations you speak of Terence are due in part because of the blending of history and personal information you seem to lack a sensitivity to recognize. If I have Wang Wah Bo’s birth certificate, red sash, and an authentic kuen kuit I am in no way obligated to share it with anyone when I have something of value to me but all you see is something to move you along in your research or training that you could later misuse or misrepresent.

canglong,

This goes back to the issue of what may be true vs. what is proven – I can accept that someone may have “secret” historical information that they don’t want to “share” (although I think that’s a rather silly position). In that event, however, it means that any claim they make remains unproven. And these people shouldn’t be surprised that others won’t accept their assurances that their closely-guarded “secrets” exist.

I was NOT looking for invitations to go late night grave-digging

Awwww, you guys are no fun.

:frowning: :wink:

If I have Wang Wah Bo’s birth certificate, red sash, and an authentic kuen kuit

Woo hoo. I’ve got a complete set of Tool CD’s, and about 2/3 of a set of Sydney2000 Olympics beer coasters. and Rigan Machado signed my copy of “The Essence of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu” when he came to Sydney!

canglong,

Let’s just say for the sake of argument that Hendrik can prove that WCK derives from White Crane/Ermei, and has shown me the proof – but he doesn’t want to share it with everyone because some people might “misuse or misunderstand” that information? So I tell you to trust me, the evidence exists but we just don’t want to show it to you. Or let’s say for the sake of argument that I can prove that Wang Ming never existed and that HFY is relatively modern but the information that can prove it is secret and I don’t want to share it? But I tell you to trust me.

Well, I think you’d be quite right to say “You shouldn’t make claims like these if you either can’t prove it or aren’t willing to prove it.” And you’d be right. Similarly, when some folks claim that they can prove their theory of the history of WCK is true or that their lineage is the oldest or original or that others are wrong, I say they shouldn’t be saying things like that if they either can’t prove it or aren’t willing to prove it.

And quite frankly, I don’t believe folks when they give excuses for not wanting to prove things – IME if they can prove it, they are more than willing to prove it. It’s only when they can’t prove things that suddenly they’ve “mysterious” reasons for not proving them.

Secrets in this day and age?

Tony,

When one can literallly download the unarmed combat training manuals for the US military, when one has unfettered access to training in the cutting edge of unarmed combat worldwide, what need is there for secrets?

Secrets of what? Systems which had their heyday 150 years ago?

What are the elite fighters of today training in?
What are the miltiary such as the US Army training in?

It isn’t some secret hidden system. Such things are unproven in the ring, on the street, and in combat of TODAY.

Having a deceased person’s birth certificate, clothing or weapons doesn’t do anything for a practitioner in the present. They are artifacts of the past.

Originally posted by canglong
Part of the limitations you speak of Terence are due in part because of the blending of history and personal information you seem to lack a sensitivity to recognize. If I have Wang Wah Bo’s birth certificate, red sash, and an authentic kuen kuit I am in no way obligated to share it with anyone when I have something of value to me but all you see is something to move you along in your research or training that you could later misuse or misrepresent.

I have, right this very minute, cold fusion running perfectly right here on my desk. Limitless energy. Zero Point. Contained Singularity.

How I done it is a secret, but trust me, I done done it!

Terence,
Keeping things in proper perspective is key. For example I could easily ask you to prove that Robert Chu exist. You know very well before you start to convince someone otherwise they could easily be of a mind set as to accept no amount of evidence as enough. If you brought Robert Chu to them they could easily say that it was not him. Bring his parents they are imposters, provide a DNA test, the test was doctored. On and on and on.

Another example of perspective when I asked David how your WC lineage progressed he said through himself, Robert Chu, Hawkins Cheung to Yip Man. By not indicating Robert’s Sifu Lei Me San(sp) your perspective would seem to indicate that somehow this information is secretive unto your family alone, insider information or dispensed at your families discretion. Robert does not credit San Sifu either on his website he really only has a link to Hawkins Cheung website not ever really offering him the title of Sifu and speaks more to the evidence of his medical training than any martial art but does that mean that his training never happend it is all a matter of perspective.

canglong,

You just don’t get it – or want to get it. I agree that my post was out of line, but I was making it to prove a point: that folks shouldn’t make those sorts of proclamations if they aren’t willing to prove it or can’t prove it. And what goes for me, goes for you, goes for the VTM, and goes for everyone. It’s fine to say “we believe this or that” or “our oral tradition is such and such” or “we have this theory” but when you start saying things like “our WCK is the original WCK” and “our history is true and correct and everyone else is wrong” then you put yourself in the position of either being willing and able to prove it or you should expect to be called on it. And to argue that “we’ll share our conclusions – that one’s about how we knwo the truth – but not share the info that verifies/proves it is true” is disingenuous. Then you have the temerity to chide me for challenging those things you’ve decided so generously to “share” (about how HFY is correct and everyone else is wrong) when I say that may be true, but you need to prove it.

And it certainly calls into question why someone or some group would want to “share” such things in the first place. Are you doing it to “help” the WCK community? To lead us all into enlightenment? Or is the VTM just concerned with the “truth”? Concerned enough, it seems, to tell us how HFY’s history is correct and the rest of us wrong, but not concerned enough to show us the info that verifies those claims! Or, is it that these things are just marketing, just ways of attracting students, just ways of making HFY sound better than competing (for students) lineages? Very often folks making marketing claims can’t prove them either. Now I’m not saying that is what HFY/VTM is doing but your actions certainly make it look like that.

You last post shows how bereft your arguments are – it is a simple matter to prove Robert exists, that he knows WCK, and that he taught me (go to his seminar in San Diego and ask him yourself!, look at his driver’s license, etc.). I can introduce you to lots of people, many on this very forum that have met him (even folks that don’t like him and wouldn’t have reasons to lie), there are photos, videos, books, etc. You know, all those things that don’t exist for Wang Ming. :wink:

FWIW, David is correct about our lineage. Sure, Robert has studied with someone in the Moy Yat family, but he’s also studied with many WCK instructors, many in the Yip Man family, some outside of the Yip Man family. But he doesn’t consider them all his “sifu” – the one person who, in his heart, he considers has been the most significant in his development. (Similarly, if you asked Victor or Phil who their sifu was or their lineage, they would indicate Chueng not Moy or Leung, because while Cheung was not their first WCK instructor it is his training methodology they follow). In CWC, for example, Robert lists all these people he has studied with.

The bottom line is this: the VTM/HFY should understand that folks outside of HFY/VTM aren’t going to accept their historical conclusions as true if they aren’t willing and able to prove them (to have them independently verified). They can come up with all the excuses in the world for why they don’t want to provide proof, and all that does is increase our skepticism.

T,

Excellent post!

Sometimes it’s like a child dealing with a father. (With apologies to Waterson) The child asks where the sun goes at night, and the father says to Arizona. The child doesn’t think that makes sense–the sun is too big. The father smiles and says the sun is only about the size of a quarter, and because it sets in Arizona, that’s why Arizona is so dry and hot.

The child is inclined to believe the father. The child might even get into fights at school with other children who laugh at the story. How dare they, the child might think. The story came from the father. The sun’s only the size of a quarter, and why else would Arizona be so hot?

But, if an uncle or friend of the father’s overhears the father telling the story, when the child leaves, they may roll their eyes, knowing the utter BS of it. Eventually the child will learn better, innocence will be lost, the ‘wisdom’ of the father put into its proper place, and the fights in the schoolyard will seem silly.

it is a simple matter to prove Robert exists, that he knows WCK, and that he taught me (go to his seminar in San Diego and ask him yourself!, look at his driver’s license, etc.). I can introduce you to lots of people, many on this very forum that have met him (even folks that don’t like him and wouldn’t have reasons to lie),
Terence, that’s a start do you have something more…

Tony (canglong),

Why dont you share some video footage with us all of yourself? Some of us (ooops "replace some with “a few”) of us were willing to share. Why not participate and show us your Shaolin WCK in action? Dont be shy!

:slight_smile:

Regards,

“The bottom line is this: the VTM/HFY should understand that folks outside of HFY/VTM aren’t going to accept their historical conclusions as true if they aren’t willing and able to prove them (to have them independently verified). They can come up with all the excuses in the world for why they don’t want to provide proof, and all that does is increase our skepticism.”

Tony:

This is a reasonable argument that Terence makes. That doesn’t mean that I’m interested in holding HFY people to the fire until they “prove” something historical…but it is a reasonable argument.

I can’t “prove” that TWC was taught to Yip Man by Leung Bik - but I know the system exists…and that it’s different than what I learned from Moy Yat, for example.

Lineage and historical arguments are basically a dead-end street.
If Hendrik (or somebody else) can someday provide proof that Ng Mui existed - or that White Crane and Snake style people invented Wing Chun…fine.

But until people can offer verifiable and reasonable proofs and evidence to support their claims and theories - then actually SHOWING and DOING the systems in question is all we have.

(And even after someone provides proof of anything…the actual systems themselves WILL STILL BE all we really have.)

Hence my disdain for Hendrik’s constant barrage of threads and posts on all of this.

So in the final analysis - Jim Roselando’s suggestion is the best one…why not put up some video?

We should all be doing that.

And you HFY guys should also come to Cleveland in May, imo.

Ciao a tutti!

What i would like to know is:

WING CHUN (wt OR vt) IS 30% OF WENG CHUN? if this is right wing chun & weng chun are the same martial art?

GM Yip Man had studied Weng Chun?