Reply to hfy Meng from Chu Sifu

[Alan_Orr]

Hi Guys

Alan Orr here, Sorry to bore the hell out of you.

This is a reply from my teacher Robert Chu to Benny Meng’s thread on HFY fourm.

What a waste of time and energy… but my teacher Robert Chu has made a reply to stop benny’s twist on things

Master B wrote:

Before we talk about the present, the past needs to be clearly
understood.
Lets back up and get things straight. It seems to me that Robert Chus
students present themselves as if they are interested in the truth but
the
reality is that they are fooled by the King of the Pien Gwai Lo.

RC: I make no claims about being the original WCK, or charge $20 K for
discipleship and otherwise…

Master B:
Coming from many sources in the martial arts community over many years
Robert Chu has been attacking and badmouthing well-known and
well-respected
Sifus for a long time. In the past there were no consequences for his
actions so he continues his childish, immature behavior to this day.
This
probably has to do with his youth in New York City. He told me himself
that
he used to hang out with gangs and street toughs and the attitude was
all
about protecting yourself first. Those experiences as a youth seem to
be
powerful as they are still influencing his behavior. Being a product of
that
environment it seems that hes still clinging to that attitude. But
hes
messing with the wrong people: he disrespected my Sifu and the HFY
lineage.

RC: Again, Ad Hominen attacks of a system that has no credentials.
This
shows that BM was my student - I had my youth fighting with gangsters
and
other punks. Childish, immature behavior? I don’t see that, nor is
that
relevant to HFY’s alleged history. BM and HFY is insulting all WCK
systems
of today as well as the ancestors with their false claims.

BM: My post here is not to argue which lineage is better or the
historical
facts of Wing Chun. My post here is to make clear that Robert Chu
started
rumors about HFY and Grand Master Gee, thinking he could get away with
it.
If Alan is concerned about justice and truth, why has he ignored
Roberts
latest writing attacking the HFY lineage in the thread I started here?
Alan
spoke to me, asking why is Gary attacking my Sifu? The fact of the
matter
is that were not attacking anybody were stating the facts. The
negative
image that Robert Chu has is solely his responsibility. Gary is simply
defending his Kung Fu family. Remember, the fact of the matter is that
Robert Chu initiated the defamation of HFY years ago when HFY first
came out
to the public just like he started this latest round of politics. Alan
talks
about what matters is application in our family, what matters is
doing
what is right. The Shaolin Monks didnt study martial arts simply to
learn
how to beat each other up. Instead, they learned how to apply the
lessons
they learned through martial arts training to living life. In our
family, we
start with what things appear to be, the Sik. Then we bring students to
the
understanding of Lei and Faat the fundamentals of Principles, Laws
and
Essence. Because of this process, we teach our students to think
independently. Often in class, we tell the students dont believe what
you
hear or see, gain the wisdom and experience for yourself and make the
conclusion on your own. We want our students to be independent
thinkers.
This is our organizational methods. Dont fall into the trap of what
appears
to be

RC: But they all act like lemmings in listening to BM’s rants. HFY is
the
system that says it is original and authenticv from Shaolin. We know
it is
simply not true. I started no rumors, just do what Parlotti said, “No
one
with half a brain is going to accept what either man says (Cheung and
Gee)
on blind faith.” I question the authenticity of the lineage and if
that is
an insult, and the HFY boys take it as such, then so be it - I just
don’t
believe what is the big deal to attack me. Where is the proof that
says Gee
did not learn from William Cheung? HFY looks very much like TWC.
Notice
what BM says here “My post here is not to argue which lineage is better
or
the historical facts of Wing Chun.” More smoke - simply show us the
proof
of the system.

BM: To start from the beginning I want to lay out some background
information first.

RC: This is all irrelevant.

BM: Part I: How Robert Chu left the Moy Yat family

RC: Acording to BM…LOL!

BM: Robert Chu told me himself that he was a student of Sifu Lee Moy
Shan.
Sifu Lee is my Sihing in the Moy Yat family. Robert said he wanted to
finish
the system, specifically the weapons. Robert approached his Sifu,
saying to
the effect that Ive been here long enough and I want to finish the
system. According to Robert, Sifu Lee replied to the effect that You
have
many Sihing that havent completed the system yet so why should you be
so
special to finish ahead of them?

RC: That is true. But what BM doiesn’t know is that none of my
training
brothers learned the entire system, and that I suspected he did not
complete
the system from Moy Yat.

BM: Robert basically gave his Sifu an ultimatum, basically, If you
dont,
Ill leave and go somewhere else. Obviously, a student making this
kind of
ultimatum leaves the Sifu with no room to negotiate.

RC: This is assumption on BM’s part. He does not know LMS or me. I
asked
LMS if he completed the whole system under MY. He said he did. At
that
time Lee was embroiled in another business, marriage,
and other things. When I questioned him, he felt that I did not
deserve his
answers, which is fine. My thought is he does not teach what he does
not
know or have.

BM: Sifu Lee said to the effect, If you leave, dont use my name. And
Robert told me he walked out and as he left, he basically said, F***
off! I
have my own name and its Chu. This is how he ended his relationship
with
his Sifu.

RC: I told LMS if he wasn’t willing to teach or did not know the entire
system, I would learn from somewhere else, as I had the desire to
complete
the system. There’s nothing wrong with that. That shows a good,
determined
student. When Lee said, “Don’t use my name if you teach”, I simply
stated,
“My surname is Chu, I do not want anyone else’s name. Success or not,
that
is my name.” The Chu family is descended from the Ming Dynasty - why
would I
change my name to Lee or Moy? WHO DOES NOT HONOR THEIR FATHER? In
Chinese,
it is a grave insult not to be called by one’s surname.

BM: Then, with nowhere to go, Robert went to his Sigung, Moy Yat.
Robert
told Grand Master Moy Yat that he didnt have any money as he was still
in
college but that he wanted to finish the system all he had to learn
was
the weapons. After discussion and interaction with Grand Master Moy
Yat, the
Grand Master said that Roberts kung fu was still quite young and the
best
way to finish the system was to become a member of the Special Student
Association, which covers the entire system. The cost of that program
was
only $3000 for the whole system and lifetime support.

RC: Moy Yat came off as a greedy businessman, but now in hindsight, I
realize he was selling his craft. I felt he was conning me. And I
listened
to him for over an hour on how LMS did not study the compolete system
from
him and that Moy Yat only taught him formally up to Chum Kiu. My
disgust
with Moy Yat and Lee Moy Shan was that Moy Yat should have taken
responsibility and taught the complete system. This way LMS shouldn’t
be
teaching. Of course, if this reaches public ears, this is not good.
Moy
Yat today is dead, and LMS has retired from teaching. Moy Yat wanted
to
give me a special deal, “Pay me $1K now, then $100 a month for 10
months and
then he would start me all over again. This is a special deal for you
because you are Chinese.” I was disgusted with the entire way this
was
conducted. I decided to not train with them. I rejected that sales
offer
feeling that martial arts should not be sold in that way.

BM: To me, this is a bargain. I myself paid a lot more to learn from
Grand
Master Moy Yat and what I received was worth more than any amount of
money I
could spend. Years later in Roberts writing on the Internet and in
published articles, he wrote about a well-known Sifu in New York
implying
that the Sifu only wants $3000 and cheats the public. When Robert
criticized
this Sifu he said that the Sifu didnt touch his students hands and
couldnt even fight.

RC: Which is true.

BM: Speaking about money, when I was doing research into the Gu Lao
system
with Robert, he charged me $1000 for two days but he ended up spending
more
than half the time showing me his interpretation of the Ip Man system.

RC: Because BM’s WCK was so lacking, and his power was coming from his
shoulders, I had to correct BM’s lack of stance, structure and
mechanics,
all of which he could not learn from Moy Yat, as a distance learning
student. I had to go back and correct his lousy forms and structure
and
lousy weapons application and form. To date, I still don’t know if
he’s
doing it right. At this time, BM was toppled over 40 times onto his
hotel
room bed because he did not have a root at all. It was pathetic that
his
gung fu was so low. As I charge $100 an hour, it is only fair I be
compensated for my time to fix him.

Part 1 continued

[Alan_Orr]

part 2 continued

BM: And as he showed me his Gu Lao, he had to look at his notes as he
couldn’t remember it directly. I came to California specifically to
research
Gu Lao as he said over the phone that he was an expert. When I met his
students during that trip, I asked his students about Gu Lao but none
of
them had learned it from him.

RC: Gu Lao WCK’s structure is loose in multiple San Sao sets and
formless.
I looked at notes to make sure I left nothing out and taught that to
him
carefully and sequentially, as I wanted him to have it down. All this
proves I am a careful and thoughtful teacher. And then I gave him a
copy of
the notes. Don’t like my teaching style is fine. But to say I don’t
teach
is another story. Benny’s lack of structure and stance was oathetic
for a
person allgedly certified to teach. He is a disgrace to the Moy Yat
family.
And if you ask people in the Moy Yat family about BM today, they don’t
have
many good things to say about him and the VTM.

Part II: Complete Wing Chun

BM: Robert Chu was a nobody before the book Complete Wing Chun came
out.

RC: LOL! I thouyght I was always Robert Chu, at least in this
lifetime.

BM: As a matter of fact, he was just a guy that got kicked out of his
kung
fu family on the East Coast and moved to the West Coast to start over.
This
he told me himself.

RC: I got married and my wife’s family is in California. BM is a
joker! I
moved because I was a loser? LOL! I moved because of my wife and the
opportunity to study with Hawkins Cheung whom, I met in late '87, and
invited for a seminar in April '88. Iwas really impressed with a WCK
sifu
taught by Yip Man who actively did Chi Sao with isstudents, emphasized
fighting application and not afraid to teach what he knew, unlike what
I had
experienced before. BM also seems to miss my training in HK under Koo
Sang
and meeting elders like Wong Shun Leung, Chu Sheung Tien, and Lo Man
Kam in
1987 where I studied the complete system in HK.

BM: In his own words, he said, “The hatred I have towards the Moy Yat
family
fueled my energy to continue to study Wing Chun.”

RC: Sure, which I used to channel my energy constructively.

BM: That was the reason he started looking into different lineages of
Wing
Chun.

RC: That is not why. I studied many things because they came my way,
like
meeting with Kwan Jong Yuen. Also, there is nothing wrong with looking
oiutside the family for better training methods, applications, and the
like.

BM: He started putting together information and through the Internet
met up
with Rene Ritchie. Robert suggested they put a book together. Robert
went to
different Wing Chun families and asked for help – he asked them to
write
information on their prospective lineages. Many of the chapters on
other
lineages were written by representatives of the respective lineages
without
receiving credit… except for Y. Wu. It turns out that Y. Wu understood
about
how publishing and royalties work. He insisted on having his name as an
author so he would receive a part of the royalties as he wrote the
Namyang
chapter.

RC: BM doesn’t know what he’s talking about. The idea for the book was
Y.
Wu’s, who proposed it to RR, who asked my to co-author the book.

BM: John Murphy wrote the chapter on Hung Seun Wing Chun but didn’t get
credit. Andreas Hoffmann wrote the chapter on Chi Sim and didn’t get
credit
either. Why was that? Because Robert Chu didn’t inform them of the
total
situation. The issue here is that there should have been more than
three
authors on the book but Robert took all the credit. And as a side note,
Robert Chu told me personally that he did all the work on Complete Wing
Chun
by himself. That was before I found out all the information above. When
they
were writing the book, Robert and Rene had never even met in person. It
wasn’t until much later that they actually met face-to-face. As is his
character, after the meeting Robert told me (over the phone) that
Rene’s
skill sucked.

RC: BM is trying to put a wedge between Rene and I here. How much
more
silliness and pettiness do we see here? RR’s WCK at the time was not
mature, lacking in body structure, structural alignment and vector
forces.
I did teach Rene everything and shared with him my knowledge openly.
As for
the book, it was to be co-authored by 3 co-authors. John Murphy wanted
to
be a co-author, but we controlled the format. All we wanted was to
interview the teachers and put the info in the format we were doing.
As it
was, the Hung Suen Chapter was not in the format we wanted. It is
glaringly
apparant in the Table of Contents. I did not take the credit for the
book

• it is co-authored by 3 people, not just Robert Chu. How silly!
  Andreas
  wrote nothing - I simply put together the chapter with Andreas info
  that I
  interviewed him for.

continued

[Alan_Orr]

part 3 continued

Part III: Robert Chu’s actions regarding Hung Fa Yi

BM: After the Grand Opening of the VTM in 1998, we had already done
many
years of research on the Ip Man lineage. Our next step was to go
outside the
Ip Man lineage. At that time, Robert Chu and Rene Ritchie had done some
research through the Internet on other lineages of Wing Chun outside
the Ip
Man lineage. The VTM’s policy was to do our research through first-hand
experience and face-to-face interaction with leaders and insiders to
the Ip
Man lineage. We continue that practice today. I was preparing a trip to
China for VTM Research into non-Ip Man Wing Chun lineages when I
noticed
that Grand Master Gee was living in California. I saw it in the chapter
on
Hung Suen that John Murphy wrote in Complete Wing Chun. I decided to
visit
GM Gee first because he was closer. I met him on December 8th, 1998.
That
was an historical meeting – Grand Master Gee shared with me a lot of
historical information, including the original name of the system, the
family tree, and many other things that were very exciting. GM Gee
treated
me to dinner and his students John Murphy and Matt Kwan gave me a tour
of
San Francisco. On that trip, I made note of the fact that this Wing
Chun
family exhibited great martial arts etiquette.

On my way back to Ohio, on the plane I ran into a well-known Wing Chun
instructor out of Sacramento, California. He asked me what I was doing
in
San Francisco and I told him about the research I did with GM Gee. His
next
response was quite shocking to me. He said, “Oh, yes. I’ve heard of
that
name. Robert Chu told me that this guy is combining his kung fu with
William
Cheung’s Wing Chun.” It was not until GM Gee and I got to know one
another
that the full story came out.

One day the topic of Robert Chu came up and GM Gee shared with me some
of
his interaction with Robert Chu. By that time, Robert Chu had told me
not to
trust Sifu Gee. It turned out that Robert Chu had also told Sifu Gee
not to
trust me. In fact, when Robert Chu met GM Gee it was an established
fact
that Robert tried to shame GM Gee’s students, said he wished he lived
in San
Francisco so he could learn under the Grand Master, and that the
students
didn’t know how lucky they were.

RC: This is all Master B’s interpretation, my warning was how was it
that GG
practiced a form of WCK that looked like TWC - I felt I couldn’t trust
that.
That was the point, as it is today. What is the truth behind the
similarity of HFY and TWC and where is the proof? BM, not knowing
TWC,
would think that it was something unique and new. I wished I lived in
SF so
I could research it more, because when I saw it - it looked like TWC to
me -
their SNT looks like TWC’s; their Chum Kiu looks like TWC’s the first
few
sections of the Muk Yan Jong looks like TWC’s, the early logo, business
card, stances, 5 stages of combat, all look like TWC - someone is
lying
about the origins of their WCK - and since I studied with William
Cheung, I
don’t think he is lying about Yip Man teaching him. And at the time,
when I
visited and our relations with GG was good, I did compliment his
students to
tell them how lucky they are to study with him (…if that was a
legitimate
system).

BM: Robert also spent a lot of his time with GM Gee bad-mouthing the
Moy Yat
family. GM Gee told me that when the two of us met, he had a very
negative
opinion about Moy Yat like he was one of the top bad Sifu ever, even
though
the two had never met. Over time, it became obvious that it was Robert
Chu
with the problem, not Moy Yat. Even while bad mouthing me personally on
the
internet, Robert was still calling GM Gee, asking to learn from the
Grand
Master.

RC: GG and I were friends back then. All before BM and the VTM were
involved . Of course, things were friendly back then. As a WCK
historian,
I want to know more about the truth. After spending more time with GG,
my
BS antenae kept popping up…this system looked too much like TWC. I
don’t
feel it is an honest coincidence.

BM: There’s more to say but this post is getting long. I’ll have more
to say
on this later this week.

RC: More to say? About whom? How about saying why HFY looks like TWC
so
much? Go back to the real issue. Also this shows my character in
never
giving up, and only getting feedback, not failure in succeeding in
life.
There’s no bad here. This is just one person’s interpretation. As for
BM
and I, it’s just a relationship which has fallen apart, just like
things
tyhat happen in real life. I hold onto no hatred. That was all past.

Robert Chu, L.Ac., QME, PhD
chusauli@hotmail.com

www.chusaulei.com

From Alan

I hope that clears up this attack on my teacher.

We have now seen why HFY guys have these attachment problems. They learn this direct. Time to read my Chan (ZEN) guys

No need for reply - this is a statement to Benny

Alan Orr

www.alanorr.com

[Jonathan_HFY_AZ]

Hello All,

I’ve been reading all of the comments back and fourth between the HFY guys (which I am one of) and the ‘chu camp’ for quite some time, and until now have tried to remained out of it mainly because I have never met Robert Chu or any but one of his guys. Without any first-hand knowledge how could I comment? Well, now I see what everyone is talking about, first hand.
This latest post digusts me. Robert Chu says that Benny Meng is insulting all WC lineages?? Does Robert even realize what he’s said in his replies??

First he starts off and bad mouths Moy Yat and Lee Moy Shan both more than once, and very disgracefully at that. Using words like ‘greedy’, refering to one as a con man, calling them lyers, and getting even more personal: " At that time Lee was embroiled in another business, an affair, a crumbling marriage, and other things"
This is slanderous IMO. An affair? Is there proof? What ‘other things’. I don;t know Robber Chu OR Mr. Lee, but reading this, it shows Robert Chu says whatever he feels about whoever he wants without regard for manners, concequence, or respect. This is just aweful. This goes right along with what people have been saying about Robert Chu, and only verifies the stories Master Meng has given us.

Robert then goes on to say “Moy Yat should have taken responsibility and taught the complete system”. So now, he feels he should tell a MASTER how he should teach and conduct his afairs, someone Robert went to for knowledge. Who does Robert think he is? I think this speaks volumes for his character, and only solidifies many peoples views of him.

RC: " BM is trying to put a wedge between Rene and I here. How much
more silliness and pettiness do we see here? RR’s WCK at the time was not
mature, lacking in body structure, structural alignment and vector
forces."
So, it seems that perhaps Robert might have said that RR’s skills ‘sucked’ since he pretty much just backed it up with the above statement. Is Master Meng truely trying to put a wedge between RC and RR by stating an obvious fact? It was never denied that RC said RR sucked. The way I see it, Master Meng stated only what he heard, Robert just pretty much confirmed it. I’d say it’s Robert’s bad, not Master Mengs..
Makes me wonder who else Robert might have said sucks that he is now friends with.. Or how he talks about anyone he meets behind thier back.

Then I read on about Roberts observations regarding similarities he percieved between HFY and TWC. How some of HFY’s forms LOOKED like TWC’s, how thier buisness cards looked similar (hahaha, that’s funny by the way - you can learn a lot about a kung fu system by looking at a buisness card!), 5 stages of combat ‘look’ like TWC’s. So, what?? That’s just surface level ‘looks’ - that says nothing of the knowledge either system holds! Many MANY WC lineages ‘look’ similar, but are vastly difference in application, concept, stance etc.
To me this is surface level stuff - you can’t tell much about a system’s concepts, structures, energies, etc from a ‘picture’ so-to-speak.

I have seen both SNT and Chum Kiu forms, dummy, etc. (HFY in person, TWC on video only) and I can see MANY differences, just from watching the TWC video (and in no way am I trying to say one is any better than the other with this statement). So now we all have two opinions. Doesn’t mean Robert is right and I am wrong, just 2 opinions - No big deal… untill I read this:
“someone is lying about the origins of their WCK” “and since I studied with William Cheung, I don’t think he is lying about Yip Man teaching him.” then flooed up with “after spending more time with GG, my BS antenae kept popping up…this system looked too much like TWC. I don’t feel it is an honest coincidence.”
WHOAW!
Now Robert Chu is directly calling Grandmaster Gerret Gee a lyer in public! All based on some similarties he SAW in some of the forms, a BUISNESS CARD (haha), a logo etc?? And one concept he listed that as far as I know are not the same, admitted by both lineages??? Who is Robert Chu to call either of these Grandmasters Lyers, or either??? Is Robert Chu the end-all judge and verdict on what is ligitimate, ‘real’ WC, who is a lyer, who is teaching 'correctly, who is a con man, who lies about thier knowledge (GMG, Mr. Lee, Moy Yat, etc)??

Master Meng said: “Robert also spent a lot of his time with GM Gee bad-mouthing the Moy Yat family.”
And obviously, that’s been verified. Now he is bad mouthing more people. Now he is badmouthing Grandmaster Gerret Gee and calling him a lyer - someone Robert wanted to learn from on top of it all! This does not sound like the actions of someone with even a shred of respect, manners, dignity, etc. Sounds like the actions of a lowly street punk to me. (opinion of course)

I have heard and read many things about Robert Chu, and untill this point, everything to me were personal accounts and opinions (right or wrong) that I just put away in the back of my mind. Now I see there is verifiable evidence to all of these FACTS as I see them now. And I am sure I am not the only one that sees this. And they come directly from Robert’s ‘mouth’.

And Alan, you stand up for this guy?

Jonathan

EDIT: Rebert Said “Where is the proof that says Gee did not learn from William Cheung? HFY looks very much like TWC.” What??? GMG should prove to who, Robert Chu, that he did not learn from GM Willaim Cheung?!?!?! WHY?? Because Robert saw some similarities?? What a joke!! Not everyone goes around stealing thier kung fu! Only someone that does such a think would asume GMG did the same. Speaks volumes about Roberts character (or lack of one)

[Jonathan_HFY_AZ]

On another note:

Sorry for the prolonged New Year Politics. While I hate poiltics, it seems that sometimes it cannot be avoided. I also am starting to feel maybe Robert might not be worth the energy anyway, and maybe that is what he is after anyway.
But I also don’t feel this ‘round’ of politics should go unanswered. I am sure I am not the only one that sees the source of the problem.
Happy New Year to all, and hopefully this will come to an end soon, one way or another.

Jonathan

[An_jie]

More Horse Stance

Too much politics = more horse stance

Buddhism teaches that all things will work themselves out.
When a crowd is having a conversation and all the sudden all of the people stop talking and yet there is one person still yelling, it is that individual that is deemed self important and self precious:D

[anerlich]

Robert Chu says that Benny Meng is insulting all WC lineages??

Actually, there’s a case to be made that he did just that in Mastering Kung Fu when he and his co-authors dumped all lineages other than HFY and Jee Sim in a straw man basked called “Popular Wing Chun” and then stomped all over it. I’d resist the temptation to say he only left Chi Sim out because he might have had a hard time convincing Andreas to write the foreword otherwise, but of course I have no proof of that.

There are allegations he insulted TWC, my lineage, by saying it was 70 or 90% of HFY, but I won’t bring those up as they are only hearsay

I’ve had some good email chats with Robert in the past, but he’s never going to make much of a diplomat, not that I will either.

I am sure I am not the only one that sees the source of the problem.

Yeah, but we may have different opinions about who/what that is.

I don’t see any WC saints wronged here. I do see a number of wannabee WC top guns whose egos are writing cheques their bodies can’t cash.

In the words of Rodney King (no, not the Crazy Monkey Boxing guy), “can’t we all just get along?”

[anerlich]

Buddhism teaches that all things will work themselves out.

I guess the Buddha never went to Iraq, huh? Probably just as well he didn’t do WC either - things might have been very different.

[Gooseman]

In the ring.

In the ring is the decider.
In boxing or any functional activity the truth is decided by the winner.
Who’s your money on CHu vs MEng.
Both chaps seem a little pathetic and too old to do much more than waffle trivial tripe at each other.
Yawn, then yawn again.
The Gooseman.

[t_niehoff]

Just so you understand the background:

All of this started up again because Alan recently attended a Benny Meng seminar in the UK (where Benny was promoting the HFy oral tradition as “the true history of WCK”), and asked Benny face-to-face, man-to-man to put all the “negative energy” between HFY and CSL WCK behind us (he also asked Benny if what he was saying was fact or his opinion, and Benny finally admitted it was merely his opinion). A nice idea. At that point, with Alan standing before him, Benny agreed. Then he got back to the US, safely distant from Alan, and promptly broke his promise. Alan - and I - have tried on the HFY108 forum to get everyone on board with putting the past behind us, but Benny was nowhere to be found, and we encountered nothing but resistance. Still Benny said nothing; not an encouraging word. Nothing until very recently. And you can read his posts – and the whole sordid mess – for yourself.

Terence

[Wayfaring]

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;731997]Just so you understand the background:

All of this started up again because Alan recently attended a Benny Meng seminar in the UK (where Benny was promoting the HFy oral tradition as “the true history of WCK”), and asked Benny face-to-face, man-to-man to put all the “negative energy” between HFY and CSL WCK behind us (he also asked Benny if what he was saying was fact or his opinion, and Benny finally admitted it was merely his opinion). A nice idea. At that point, with Alan standing before him, Benny agreed. Then he got back to the US, safely distant from Alan, and promptly broke his promise. Alan - and I - have tried on the HFY108 forum to get everyone on board with putting the past behind us, but Benny was nowhere to be found, and we encountered nothing but resistance. Still Benny said nothing; not an encouraging word. Nothing until very recently. And you can read his posts – and the whole sordid mess – for yourself.

Terence[/QUOTE]

Terence, safely distant from any practicing HFY member, above tries to give an account of the background of an event he didn’t attend. Understandably, his account of the event is mostly BS.

It’s interesting that one who pushes so hard for “independant verifiable evidence” can provide a supposedly accurate background based upon second-hand hearsay of an event. But hey, there’s the double standard.

Alan did try to go on HFY108 and move forward. The “resistence” he met was because some HFY members are aware of the types of things his sifu Robert Chu has said in the past and told him Robert would need to apologize to move forward. Eventually all this resulted in Robert posting some not-so-hidden jabs at HFY on wingchunkuen forums. I personally enjoyed the “f@rt, f@rt” proverb there. It’s great entertainment. And Robert telling us what he really thinks, above.

[t_niehoff]

I notice you didn’t say my account was untrue. If you read the HFY108 forum, you’d see I rehashed what Alan said (who was there). And Benny didn’t live up to his part. Because of that, the attempt at “peace” failed.

I say the same things to people’s faces as I do when they aren’t there. I use my real name on forums (don’t hide behind pseudonyms), I’m in the phone book, so anyone can find me if they want to. Anyone can come play with us. I’ll gladly say any of this to any HFY practitioner’s face or anyone else because it is the truth.

FWIW, I don’t claim to be highly skilled or knowledgeable – certainly I don’t call myself “master” – but I do get my ass kicked so much (in BJJ, MMA, WCK) that nothing intimidates me. That’s the great thing about martial arts.

Terence

[couch]

[QUOTE=An jie;731959]Too much politics = more horse stance

Buddhism teaches that all things will work themselves out.
When a crowd is having a conversation and all the sudden all of the people stop talking and yet there is one person still yelling, it is that individual that is deemed self important and self precious:D[/QUOTE]

And they will.

This type of stuff just drives the “underground guys” and anti-politics practicioners fa rther away.

I think I’ll go practice my horse stance now!

All the best,
Kenton Sefcik

[Wayfaring]

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;732017]I notice you didn’t say my account was untrue. If you read the HFY108 forum, you’d see I rehashed what Alan said (who was there). And Benny didn’t live up to his part. Because of that, the attempt at “peace” failed.

I say the same things to people’s faces as I do when they aren’t there. I use my real name on forums (don’t hide behind pseudonyms), I’m in the phone book, so anyone can find me if they want to. Anyone can come play with us. I’ll gladly say any of this to any HFY practitioner’s face or anyone else because it is the truth.

FWIW, I don’t claim to be highly skilled or knowledgeable – certainly I don’t call myself “master” – but I do get my ass kicked so much (in BJJ, MMA, WCK) that nothing intimidates me. That’s the great thing about martial arts.

Terence[/QUOTE]

Mostly BS = untrue.

rehashed = spin doctored insinuating Benny Meng is afraid of Alan.

Attempt at peace failed = you and Alan acting like @sses on HFY108 when people suggested Robert needed to initiate peace attempts. I would say Alan started out with good intentions, but did not live up to his agreement regarding moving forward w/o negatives.

Master = simple term meaning your students have schools / students.

You not being highly skilled or knowledgeable = no argument from me.

Anyone can come play = same in virtually any HFY school. You don’t have the corner on any markets getting beat up in MMA / BJJ / WCK envrionments.

[Jeff_Bussey]

Thanks for the entertainment guys. Keep it coming.
Some people get annoyed with this but I love it. What else am I going to do when I’m drinking my coffee.
Carry on.

J

[Mr_Punch]

So it is true that when men get old they return to their childhoods…? :rolleyes:

Bloody kids.

[Alan_Orr]

Hi Guys

This my teacher last reply to Benny. Its very boring for us to have to deal with this type of posting, but if Benny thinks its okay to post twisted threads we must add the other side to them.

I would rather we meet up and test our skills. I hope I will not have to post on this subject again. I tried to make things better between out groups, but that was just attacked. Best to leave it as it is and deal with thinks as men.

I have better things to do with my time.

Alan Orr

Reply for Robert Chu-

Benny Meng’s small heartedness and low character has hit an all time
low,
showing the insecurities he has and lack of confidence. I can only
conjecture that he must hate me because he has a lack of skill which is
lower than me, which he refers to as “Phony Sifu X” (…in which he
couldn’t
even spell “phony”). If I had no skill, how come he was bested, and
tossed
down so easily over 40 times? His hatred of me is very apparent and I
am
personally tired of this nonsense of going back and forth and putting
names
and lies out there. His hatred has polluted a good relationship I had
originally with the HFY family, and caused it to degrade to an all time
low.
Traditionally in the martial world when a student of a clan has acted
in
bad manner, he is expelled from the martial arts clan. In this way,
Benny
Meng should be expelled from the HFY family. He has no respect for me
as a
person or as a Sifu in the Martial arts world and I have suffered his
personal attacks on me quietly for many years, and taken insults from
people
I do not know, because of his bickering and continued tirade against me
with
his students. Is that a good example of a master? Spreading hatred?

Of the Moy Yat people I know, Master B is lacking as I know he did not
study
that long, nor was he around to train in sufficient skill with his Moy
Yat
training brothers. He was totally lacking in body structure and
couldn’t
even stand in his stance properly. My 4 structure tests are an
objective
method of testing WCK core basics. If you can’t pass them, your WCK
skill
is very, very low. Benny couldn’t pass 3 of 4 tests! He was all
shoulder
power with no root. What a joke from a certified individual! When you
see
Henry Moy, John Chen, Mickey Chan or other seniors of the Moy Yat clan,
they
have real skill. I am grateful for the martial arts I learned from the
Moy
Yat family and remember the kindness from Henry Moy when he reviewed my
sets
and taught me the Luk Dim Boon Gwun and shared with me what he knew of
the
Baat Jaam Dao. I kept my word with my estranged Sifu Lee Moy Shan
when I
published Complete Wing Chun, and never used his name in all the years
I
taught, and I certainly acknowledged those seniors who helped me and
thanked
the Moy Yat family in the book. People in the Moy Yat clan do not have
any
favorable things to say about Benny and even wanted to expel him from
Moy
Yat’s funeral. Also there are many issues of how he conducted himself
with
the chops, the museum and other issues. They are not news. People in
the
Moy Yat family know this for years about him.

I originally had no trouble with Garrett Gee and family. I still like
to
view HFY as separate from the VTM. I certainly have questions, and of
course, from rumor mouth Benny, they got twisted and distorted like his
thinking, just as he is spreading false lies and rumors now. One can
read
Mastering Kung Fu and know that the VTM was editorializing many things
and
used them as silly attacks to the entire WCK family. I am a small
local
martial artist, why does BM act like this? It is because he is
threatened
that the illusion he sells is at jeopardy. He has no real skills, and
Benny
is the “curator” of his own museum, and the information he has put out
is
faulty and without evidence. If HFY states that is all we have, don’t
stretch - be objective, not biased. For this reason, he should also
step
down as curator of this VTM, as he is very biased. The material he
has put
out reeks of propaganda and is insulting to the WCK ancestors.

Garrett Gee told me once that Benny denied he was my student. I
thought
this was poor martial ettiquette. But knowing Benny’s character, that
is
understandable. Basically, he is the cause for the ongoing Chu Sau Lei
family and HFY family conflict. I was originally a friend of HFY
(then
called Hung Suen) and insisted on their inclusion in Complete Wing Chun
and
even extended deadline dates. Garrett Gee has acknowledged me in the
recent
HFY history of getting known publically.

To bring up Andreas is also funny; Andreas Hoffman no longer teaches at
the
VTM or wants much to do with them. Must be BM’s charming personality,
or is
it that everytime he taught you something, HFY (coincidentally) also
had the
same thing? Andreas has also said to me that HFY looks like TWC.

Hate shows Benny Meng has no Chan, despite all the words he says he is
cultivated. He is a poor example of a man with no honor. I know that
he
has painted me in a veil of distortion, and caused an entire Kung fu
clan to
rile up against me, and now we see he is trying to do more with false
rumors
and lies by mentioning other names. This shows what low character he
has.
Benny Meng, it is time to step down as “curator” and from your own ego
and
self importance - which I suspect is what “HFY Chan” is supposed to be
about. You demonstrate “head and mouth Chan” and you have no
cultivation.
You cannot even watch your mind, and be centered, which is what WCK
demands.

Want to challenge me? That’s funny! You use martial arts for self
protection and defense, not to be an aggressor - or is that your
aggression
comes from the delusions, hate and greed in your mind? That’s the
Shaolin
way? I happily accept your challenge. Come to my school in Los
Angeles
Chinatown, 818 N. Hill Street, Los Angeles, CA this Saturday, January
20,
2007 at 8 am. We can have our match and video it and put it on
Youtube.com.

Benny boasts (which again is funny as he is a “Master B”) about besting
my
students? That’s a good laugh too! The class was mostly beginners
(less
than a year!) and says nothing of a couple of my semiors (with less
than 3
years experience) who threw him about effortlessly (who at that time
had
about 10 years experience in WCK)! I guess distance learning is not
as
good as hands on. I guess we really know who the phony is. My words
at
the end were in jest - as Master B was wholeheartedly accepted in the
family. People who don’t know me well, I guess they do not understand
my
sense of humor. It’s all fine! To have to explain it ruins the joke.

I’m still looking for independent verifiable proof about HFY beyond
Garrett
Gee, as is the rest of the WCK/VT family. All this smoke and mirrors,
but
still not one answer of the truth. If HFY is independently verifiable,
I
would extend my public apologies in writing and kowtow to your master,
but
as I see it, basically you’re full of ****! ****!

Robert Chu, L.Ac., QME, PhD
chusauli@hotmail.com

www.chusaulei.com

[Chango]

LOL! Charecter and Contradictions !!!

I will let Robert Chu’s forked tongue do most of the talking!! LOL!

RC- The Chu family is descended from the Ming Dynasty

*Robert where is your pedigree?? Come on man lets see verifiable proof! LOL!

RC- It is common in Chinese culture to “Pien Lo Fan” or “Pien Gwai Lo”

• I guess this is your point of view on what is “common in Chinese culture” LOL! Do you read what your write? I think we call it the pot calling the kettle etc…

RC-Traditionally in the martial world when a student of a clan has acted in bad manner, he is expelled from the martial arts clan.

• Robert please tell us more about “the martial world” It’s clear you are a ******* child of many lineages.

RC-When you see Henry Moy, John Chen, Mickey Chan or other seniors of the Moy Yat clan, they have real skill. I am grateful for the martial arts I learned from the Moy Yat family and remember the kindness from Henry Moy when he reviewed my sets and taught me the Luk Dim Boon Gwun and shared with me what he knew of the Baat Jaam Dao.

RC-The hatred I have towards the Moy Yat family
fueled my energy to continue to study Wing Chun.

*Do I need to add anything?

RC- I kept my word with my estranged Sifu Lee Moy Shan
when I published Complete Wing Chun, and never used his name in all the years I taught, and I certainly acknowledged those seniors who helped me and thanked the Moy Yat family in the book.

*Did you list what “fueled your energy” in the book? LOL!

RC- Sure, which I used to channel my energy constructively

*It’s clear you are misguided and should not be taken seriously.
:rolleyes:

[anerlich]

Robert please tell us more about “the martial world” It’s clear you are a ******* child of many lineages.

What’s the down side? Is that an iinsult or compliment?

Many people have had to switch instructors, even change styles, due to no fault of their own. And some because they have the opportunity to see “the martial world” through more than one instructor’s eyes.

Benny’s been around a few blocks himself, and probably deserves the mantle as much as Robert does.

FWIW, I too am a ******* child, and proud of (most of) my various MA teachers.

It’s clear you are misguided and should not be taken seriously.

Only a few people are taking any of this seriously. You, unforunately, seem to be one of them!

[Ultimatewingchun]

Man…you guys should either slug it out or shut up. This is really getting ugly. :rolleyes: