HFY info on wingchunkuen.com

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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I created the new thread to end the hijacking of the other one.

Sheldon, Chango,

If the information you consider out-of-date on my website is that about HFY, and the updates you wish me to make are based upon what the VTM is offered, please understand that what I have on my site is what Gee sifu gave us for Complete Wing Chun. When last I spoke with Gee sifu (a couple of months ago), he was very clear that only 1/3 of the information about HFY being offered by the VTM came from him. Since Gee sifu is the best (and thusfar only known) source for information on HFY, there does not seem to be any option at this point but to stick with what he has so generously provided.

Although I’ve answered this ‘question’ before, hopefully this wil serve as a handy reminder.

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http://www.wingchunkuen.com/links.html

Ving Tsun Museum
Benny Meng’s homepage with information on Wing Chun Kuen in general and Yip Man/Moy Yat and Hung Fa Yi/Garette Gee in specific .

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/what/systems/hungfayee.html

Hung Fa Yee Chun Kuen (Honghua Yi Yongchunquan), commonly romanized at Hung Fa Yi (Red Flower Righteous) and previously referred to as Hung Suen (Red Boat) Wing Chun Kuen, was introduced by Garrett Gee of San Francisco. Although this branch is said to come from Xiguan, Guangzhou, China, it is currently only available in San Fracisco, U.S.A. and thus it has not yet been possible to cross-check or otherwise verify the information presented here.

Sheldon;)

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Resource.

Rene,
You should contact Master Benny Meng and/or the VTM, as he is the primary source of public information on HFYWCK to cross-reference, verify and update your information.

4

Rene Ritchie says …
… please understand that what I have on my site is what Gee sifu gave us for Complete Wing Chun.

But, the acknowledgement from his website reads …
Notes: Special thanks to John Murphy and Robert Chu.

So is this another case of not giving credit where credit is due or did you mis-speak when you said " please understand that what I have on my site is what Gee sifu gave us for Complete Wing Chun." ?

Maybe you meant … please understand that what I have on my site is what John Murphy gave us for Complete Wing Chun or something similiar.

:confused:

-David

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Rene is very capable of speaking for himself, but I just wanted to chime in and point out that if David is confused, it is only because he is not reading very carefully. Rene clearly states that Gee Sifu provided info to “us”, meaning the authors of Complete Wing Chun…Robert Chu included. The acknowledgement quoted in no way contradicts that. Robert Chu is part of the collective “us” that Rene was referring to.

Keith

Originally posted by desertwingchun2
[B]Rene Ritchie says …
… please understand that what I have on my site is what Gee sifu gave us for Complete Wing Chun.

But, the acknowledgement from his website reads …
Notes: Special thanks to John Murphy and Robert Chu.

So is this another case of not giving credit where credit is due or did you mis-speak when you said " please understand that what I have on my site is what Gee sifu gave us for Complete Wing Chun." ?

Maybe you meant … please understand that what I have on my site is what John Murphy gave us for Complete Wing Chun or something similiar.

:confused:

-David [/B]

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the facts

Keith,
In case you missed it or are confused I see that David is refering to the fact that Rene thanks his co-authors but not his source on this particular page.

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Savi - Benny knows my email, I’m sure if he wanted to suggest any updates, he’d drop me a note, polite and direct as always, and let me know, and I’d consider it just the same. However, I’m sure you didn’t mean to imply that Gee sifu wasn’t the first, best source for any and all HFY info. While it may go without saying, it should still be said.

David - You’re correct Gee sifu should be there first and foremost, much as I mention it to Savi, I should take my own advice.

BTW- How is John these days? We don’t hear much from him, Matt, or the other senior/original HFY people any more. Please give them my regards, they were, and I imagine still are, class acts.

8

Rene please spare us with your silliness!

Rene,
I could be wrong but It s seems that you to want to discredit the information provided by the VTM. You seem to fail to acknowlege the fact that the VTM’s information has been checked and double checked with it’s sources. If there was an issue with accuracy the representatives of the particular lineage would make corrections. The VTM souces are varified family members or representatives of each lineage. It seems you don’t have the same standards when it comes to providing information. Maybe you would care to explain?

BTW the last I checked Robert Chu was not a member of a HFY! ROFLOL! So your sources had been a HFY member (John M.) and Robert Chu? when did Robert Chu become a expert or an authority on HFY? Does that mean only half of what you provide is true or reliable? I didn’t see anywhere in your book where it said “Robert Chu’s understanding of HFY”? maybe you can clear this up?

You have been notified by Myself (a Hung fa Yi member) that your information on your site is incomplete and you will need to update it. You have been told that you will need to contact Sifu Meng for the update to your information. But you seem to have a problem doing the foot traffic. So instead of doing the work you seem to play this game where You seem to think that you can play between Sigung Gee and the VTM. LOL!

You fail to realize that everyone can see what you are up to. I think this speaks alot about your charecter. But it’s your bed Rene etc… sleep tight my friend. LOL!

Sifu Chango (SGS) :cool:

9

Chango,

When Jim or Andreas or David or any of a dozen other folks have changes they’d like to make, they shoot me an email and I do my best to accomodate things. If any of Gee sifu’s direct students have similar requests, they know how to reach me. I’m not sure I can make it any more clear than that. We each have to do our part. (Heck, Gee sifu doesn’t seem to have a problem letting me know stuff when he wants to, can’t imagine it would be a problem for anyone else).

Second, Gee sifu was fairly direct in saying roughly 66% of the information on HFY coming from the VTM did not come from him. I believe William also posted on this forum that the VTM and HFY are distict. That didn’t imply a value judgement to me, just a proper and clear distinction (which would be a great example to follow). As my webpage tries to show how the branches themselves record their history, Gee sifu’s direct material, then, is obviously the material I will base it on.

To help you understand this, of you look at the Yip Man or Sum Nung family trees, or the Pao Fa Lien one, they are the lineages published by the branches in question, not my (or your, or anyone else’s) modern research or opinion, or positioning.

And the VTM, of course, has their own website where they can and do publish anything they want, so there are alternate places people can go for differing and varied opinions, which is what everyone should want and help promote (no one’s trying to ram something down anybody’s throat, right?)

If this is still unclear, please let me know and I’ll try again to explain.

(Lastly, it’s somehow ironic that shills and trolls want to speak of character when I have done more than most to not only promote but try to improve HFY’s image in the WCK world, even when internal elements, in their hubres, have done nothing but make the task near impossible. Perhaps it is they who should check with Gee sifu before posting on public boards.)

{slams mic a la Chris Rock, flips mad props to da hommies, and exists stage left}

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Give me a break…

Rene wrote> (Lastly, it’s somehow ironic that shills and trolls want to speak of character when I have done more than most to not only promote but try to improve HFY’s image in the WCK world, even when internal elements, in their hubres, have done nothing but make the task near impossible. Perhaps it is they who should check with Gee sifu before posting on public boards.)

HFY does not need Rene Ritchie to promote or improve it’s image in the WCK world. Consider yourself relieved of this duty as your posts on this thread prove your not-so hidden agenda against HFY and the VTM. HFY does not need friends like you.

The internal elements that you mention are my brothers and sisters and certainly have the knowledge, background and intelligence to post on this forum or any other. I doubt that you check with your sifu before posting on public boards as this is a truly dumb statement.

William E.

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Whose responsibility is it?

Savi - Benny knows my email, I’m sure if he wanted to suggest any updates, he’d drop me a note, polite and direct as always, and let me know, and I’d consider it just the same. However, I’m sure you didn’t mean to imply that Gee sifu wasn’t the first, best source for any and all HFY info. While it may go without saying, it should still be said.

Rene, it is not the responsibility of the people who provide you with information to maintain your site. Master Meng is not responsible to update the information you have on your website; nor is any other party who is on your site.

With regards to character, consider the fact that you call us shills and trolls. Anything on this thread warrant the use of the word shill or troll? Consider the fact that you chose to ‘represent’ the HFY family without consulting GM Gee. Consider the fact that you let people mock the HFY family when you assumed the role of “HFY Champion” while sarcastically being kind. What did that lead to? The moderators were forced to strictly enforced their rules, and most appropriately so. So I ask why ‘we’ should go to you with information when it is you who maintains your site. Yet you speak of character? Character is multi-dimensional, and people read this forum.

“Benny knows my e-mail…-Rene” Ego can only get you so far.

I will reiterate, and with all due respect, Master Benny Meng is the curator of the VTM and is the primary source of public information on HFYWCK. As you know he is a very moral and humble individual who carries a high level of respect for all. Either contact him or the VTM staff for your shared interest in HFY’s history with regards to the information you currently possess.

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Another pointless thread of needless hypersensitivity, vituperation and paranoia. Like the majority of those on this subject.

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Savi sez:
Rene, it is not the responsibility of the people who provide you with information to maintain your site.

Very true— then why bother Rene on this forum about “updating”
info. on his site..

Rene’s site is one of deifferent sites on the net. If any one has a problem they can contact directly.

Agree with Anerlich— a really unproductive and vituperative thread involving the same usual suspects. Rene- why bother creating this thread or even responding? Your choice of course-
but I dont understand. Ignoring people is not a weakness.

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round and round

Another pointless thread of needless hypersensitivity, vituperation and paranoia. Like the majority of those on this subject.

…and you are never far behind.

Very true— then why bother Rene on this forum about “updating”

because Rene was kind enough to start this thread

The contradiction of being higher and mightier than those posting on a pointless thread reveals itself each time you post.

15

What I find most interesting about this thread is that the most telling and important statement has been completely ignored.

Rene said that in his recent conversation with the head of the HFY family and the source for HFY in North America Gee sifu that Gee himself only stands behind 1/3 of the information the VTM is putting out about HFY. If all the research of the VTM isnt good enough for Gee sifu why should it be good enough for anyone else? If Gee sifu doesnt support with his name and reputation 2/3 of the information being put out why should Rene change his information ?

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Hunter,

Though I slammed my mic, gave mad props da hommies, and exited the stage, to be fair to the VTM, Gee sifu never said he didn’t stand behind the info the VTM has presented, only that 2/3 of it didn’t come from him. He might very well believe the VTM has a very compelling, well thought out, and well fleshed out foundation for the other 2/3, he was just intellectually honest enough to point out it didn’t come from him. Giving credit where credit was due, so to speak. (He tends to set a very good example, which will hopefully be followed as much as his martial legacy)

IMHO, this is the same as a lot of what I believe on the history of WCK doesn’t come from the system I trained in (we use the Ng Mui, Miu Shun, etc. legend), or that the research Cho Hung-Choi and Hendrik have done on the possible White Crane/Twelve Post origin of WCK doesn’t come from the cannon of Yik Kam or the Cho family (who also use the Ng Mui, Miu Shun, etc. legend).

What I do on wingchunkuen.com is show the cannon - ie. Yip Man’s account of Henan Shaolin and Ng Mui, the above accounts of Sum Nung and the Cho’s, and Gee sifu’s lineage as written out on the lineage tree he gave us for CWC. It’s not based on my research, your research, Benny’s research, or anyone else.

What is more than midly comical, of course, is that I’m trolled about not seeking out the latest conjectures on HFY (who cares about the other lineages…), while on http://home.vtmuseum.org/genealogy/index.php both HFY and Jee Shim are credited to Shaolin, as their origin myths state, while Pien San is credited no further back than Koo Lo, and Yip Man no further back than Hong Kong, a slap in the proverbial face (pun intended) of their origin myths, and an attempt to make them seem like they popped out of the woodwork recently… Ya think they’d see to their own updating first…

But then, I’m backstage chatting with the hostesses…

17

Originally posted by Pitbull

about wingchun…a delegation from china visited us this week…i thought they are fellow wu zu quzn practitioners or people from south shaolin…i was puzzled when i was told that they are wing chun people…i dont know about what hey talked about w my teacher and club officers…maybe hey came to talk about the november soouth shaolin expo(i hope i will be sponsored to go)

…WING CHUN PEOPLE FROM SOUTH SHAOLIN

Did the VTM and Rene Ritchie ever talk to Pitbull about this?

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=15960&pagenumber=3

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Rene - I stand corrected. Although it doesnt really matter because all this our wing chun is better than yours becuase, ( fill in the reason) would be a wonderfull joke if it werent so sad. To me its all a big goof. I am always surprised at how serious some take it.
And to think how easy all this would be to prove. There are full contact continous sparring tournements all over North America every month some kung - fu some not. Some of these super best combat derived wing chun clans should be cleaning up, winning all the san shou and full contact sparring tounements. Then there would be some evidence of a superior system for everyone to see.

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Perhaps Geezer and the others find themselves to be more important and more KNOWLEDGABLE in the HFY hierarchy than the current Grandmaster of the system. I guess the students have become the master.

Or this was just another way to work in a slam against Rene. Too bad they didn’t consult their own Si-gung before speaking eh?

But getting in the slam wouldn’t stand in the way of facts. Perhaps Rene is just waiting for the HFY book which will explain it all!

Originally posted by hunt1
[B]What I find most interesting about this thread is that the most telling and important statement has been completely ignored.

Rene said that in his recent conversation with the head of the HFY family and the source for HFY in North America Gee sifu that Gee himself only stands behind 1/3 of the information the VTM is putting out about HFY. If all the research of the VTM isnt good enough for Gee sifu why should it be good enough for anyone else? If Gee sifu doesnt support with his name and reputation 2/3 of the information being put out why should Rene change his information ? [/B]

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LOL, love it! Been away from the lists for a year and see the HFY soap opera hasn’t changed a bit!
Dave c