Many people have had to switch instructors, even change styles, due to no fault of their own.
That is perfectly understandable but that is not the case in this particular instance.
Only a few people are taking any of this seriously. You, unforunately, seem to be one of them!
Anerlich, Serious is a natural knee jerk response when others try to make light of your sifu no one should be faulted for that. Chango is a warrior in every sense of the word and as such he understands sometimes diplomacy must be delivered by a good foot soldier. Chango also being one of the few people around for all or most of the things in question on this thread brings true experience to his post that others only wish they could.
Circling the wagons
Many people have had to switch instructors, even change styles, due to no fault of their own. And some because they have the opportunity to see “the martial world” through more than one instructor’s eyes.
Point well missed. The point was that he has no idea about Mo duk or the “martial world” if he has never been anything but a disrespectful derlick student. Having never moved beyond being a casual student. 
I have always been encouraged by my Sifu to be a student of all martial arts. Showing healthy respect for all martial arts. 
Terence,
Did I just read this correct? did you just brag about getting your A$$ kicked? LOL! I think it’s common knowlege that if you are learning MMA, BJJ, etc… that you get yours handed to you while doing so. But I think everyone here already knows that. ( I could be wrong) So I don’t think bragging about that aspect really accomplishes anything! W.T.F I don’t think this thread has accomplished anything. So here we go again. 
Chango is a warrior in every sense of the word and as such he understands sometimes diplomacy must be delivered by a good foot soldier.
Sounds pretty much exactly what Alan was doing.
Like Victor said, this is getting worse than any of the previous b!tchfests alone similar lines. Much more than a $5 bet on the line here.
Man…you guys should either slug it out or shut up. This is really getting ugly.
Victor,
When Alan Orr asked the question that you knew would lead down this path and you had every opportunity not to answer and fall prey to his lead you chose not to. Now your own thread is the benefactor of your own unwillingness to “shut up” you are hardly in a position to ask others to do something you yourself were incapable of doing.
Sounds pretty much exactly what Alan was doing.
Yeah pretty much except as a long distance student he didn’t experience these things in person like Chango.
Point well missed.
Opinon noted. yawn
Unbias opinion ?
From an outsider that has no bias at all in this matter,
From a human being and not a martial artist - this is a liitle ridiculous guys -
Let it lay, be happy with what you have.
All these Wing Chun Boxers and no Gong Sau matches yet.
I with Mr Bussey - this makes for great reading when I’m meant to be working - kinda like the Bold and the Beautiful but more eloquent.
[QUOTE=Chango;732390]Terence,
Did I just read this correct? did you just brag about getting your A$$ kicked? LOL! I think it’s common knowlege that if you are learning MMA, BJJ, etc… that you get yours handed to you while doing so. But I think everyone here already knows that. ( I could be wrong) So I don’t think bragging about that aspect really accomplishes anything! W.T.F I don’t think this thread has accomplished anything. So here we go again. :D[/QUOTE]
No brag intended, Chango, just stating the truth. And I’ll tell you another truth: so is anyone and everyone who is out there really fighting, they get hit, choked out, submitted, tapped, and every other thing you can think of done to them. Even the best. Go visit the Militech camp sometime. So if you aren’t getting your ass kicked, you aren’t fighting. End of story. That’s the nature of the game we play. Without the punishment, there is no real development. And no real knowledge.
I pointed this out because if you are used to this, if this is your routine, challenges or intimidation become meaningless to you. And your perspective on things is very different from those who don’t. For example, if you really fight, you won’t go around calling yourself “master” or “grandmaster” – you’ll know better.
Terence
First of all, Tony…when I said “you guys” I was referring to Robert Chu and Benny Meng…and btw…the last time I looked - I’m a sihing to one of them in the Moy Yat lineage and an uncle to the other one in the same lineage. (Robert mentioned Henry Moy, John Cheng, and Mickey Chan…perhaps you should inquire as to what these 3 men thought/think about my wing chun knowledge and abilities - as I came up through the system with the 3 of them at the same time…and spent many hours/years working out with them).
So I’ll say whatever I want about that.
As to your other remarks about how I should “have known better”…yadda,yadda…
Who says I have some obligation NOT TO GIVE MY OPINION ABOUT THE SIMILARITIES BETWEEN TWC AND HFY???
…you?
LOL.
And furthermore…go back and read my post carefully - as I purposely did not add any fuel to the fire by speculating out loud what I REALLY think the relationship between the two systems probably is. Trust me…it would make you cringe in your seat.
So let it go, Tony. Let it go.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;732461]No brag intended, Chango, just stating the truth. And I’ll tell you another truth: so is anyone and everyone who is out there really fighting, they get hit, choked out, submitted, tapped, and every other thing you can think of done to them. Even the best. Go visit the Militech camp sometime. So if you aren’t getting your ass kicked, you aren’t fighting. End of story. That’s the nature of the game we play. Without the punishment, there is no real development. And no real knowledge.
I pointed this out because if you are used to this, if this is your routine, challenges or intimidation become meaningless to you. And your perspective on things is very different from those who don’t. For example, if you really fight, you won’t go around calling yourself “master” or “grandmaster” – you’ll know better.
Terence[/QUOTE]
Bravo Terence… BRAVO!
Just so you understand the background
Alan came to hfy108.com and asked some questions. Some discussion ensued. People started to get to know each other/feel each other out (which should have been anticipated given the history of Robert Chu and HFY). Disagreements ensued. The past came back to the present… and then Robert Chu posted a poorly veiled re-hash of his insinuations about HFY on rene’s website (where it seems that HFY people can’t sign on). Not sure why Robert did what he did … But that’s the background of “this” current situation, based on years of history… It’s a shame that Alan and Master Meng were working to make things smoother and then Alan’s own instructor undermind those efforts.
To see what Robert is trying to get out from under, go here (starts in the 2nd post on page 6 of the thread).
It’s funny to see Robert trying to play the humble guy when he’s so strongly opinionated about everything. I guess GM Gee and GM Hoffmann couldn’t see Robert for who he was… according to Robert, Master Meng’s the reason his relationships were strained… to see the other side, hit that link above. As for Robert having a good relationship with GM Gee… that’s Robert’s opinion. Doesn’t mean it was reality.
And Ternace, For example, if you really fight, you won’t go around calling yourself “master” or “grandmaster” – you’ll know better
I think it would be obvious that the meaning and implication of “master” and “grand master” can have a different connotations in different contexts… but I guess that’s too high-falootin’ a type of thinkin’ fer some of “da f1gh+r5” out there.
However, agreed that there is a time and place for hand-on exchange with little limitations… but that’s just training methodology… big whoop. hundreds or thousands of years of history, tradition, and etiquette… just junk it all because because… getting rid of social mores for no other reason that to get rid of them certainly worked for the hippies, too. There’s a difference between Tradition and Convention… free exchange is part of Tradition. What passes for most martial arts is Convention. Tradition is alive and changes with each generation while simultaneously maintaining a timeless practicality to it; it force you to face reality. Convention clings to dead and empty ritual, providing a buffer from dealing with reality. Check out Thomas Merton some time.
Jeremy wrote:
“where it seems that HFY people can’t sign on”
Anyone and everyone is welcome on http://www.wingchunkuen.com/
It’s an automated process, you just fill out the form and hit send, and an email is returned to you from the server with an activation link. Be sure to check your spam settings/folder to make sure you’re not missing it.
If anyone has any trouble whatsoever, just leave me a PM and I’ll personally make them an account right away.
Looking forward to seeing your posts!
Everyone is free to believe what they want but when you start to go out of your way to directly accuse others of lying and intentionally misleading people, that says a lot about your character.
Remember, all the politics started in 2007 with Robert Chu.
To bring up Andreas is also funny; Andreas Hoffman no longer teaches at the VTM or wants much to do with them.
Guess Robert is out of the loop on this one… Master Meng and GM Hoffmann (note spelling) have a good relationship and communicate on a fairly regular basis.
Andreas has also said to me that HFY looks like TWC.
Interesting… but…
According to the VTM, all Wing Chun comes from the Southern Shaolin Temple. Therefore, it would make sense that Hung Fa Yi, Traditional Wing Chun, and Chi Sim Weng Chun all share similarities in a certain way. But each family also preserves a unique identity. For example, Chi Sim and HFY maintain Kiu Sau. TWC doesn’t have Kiu Sau. HFY and TWC maintain Chi Sau. Chi Sim doesn’t have Chi Kiu. These aren’t different words for bridging exercises either. Each term represents a different category of training for specific parts of the body, specific tactics and strategies, and specific ranges. By analogy, they are different types of engines. A Battleship engine is different from a Tank engine is different from an Airplane engine is different from a Submarine engine. The laws of physics apply to each the same, they are made of (mostly) the same types of parts and materials, but each has unique, specific requirements best suited to the environment in which it operates. So quoting GM Hoffmann as saying that HFY and TWC are similar doesn’t mean a whole lot. What’s the context in which he is referring? It’s possible that he meant from a Kiu Sau perspective. Robert’s quote doesn’t give the context of it so it can be misleading to the uninformed.
The situation is like math. Any kid can learn + and - and the numbers 1-10. Algebra has + and - and the numbers 1-10 but they are used differently. Same with calculus: same parts but different use. Robert’s kinda like a kid… sure there’s similarities between basic math, algebra, and calculus but is a kid learning basic math qualified to talk about the distinctions between all three? Using Algebra won’t build you an airplane. You need more specific training. Robert likes to talk about letting application be your Sifu. If application is all he’s working with, he’s set a very low standard for himself and his students. Trial and error is a long way to go to get anywhere. And for Robert, it didn’t seem to work too well: his own Sifu disowned him, his Sigung said his skill was lacking, GM Cheung said Robert didn’t understand basic Wing Chun concepts (like one hand can trap two), and GM Hoffmann totally owned Robert in free Kiu Sau. For someone who likes to tear down others, he certainly doesn’t have very far to fall himself.
Again, everyone is free to believe what they want. But Robert Chu takes thing a step ****her, making personal attacks. Saying you agree with ‘this’ or ‘that’ is fine too. But saying that this instructor is the king of whatever takes things too far. It’s the lowest form of character. What is Robert Chu really about? He openly criticized HFY as not being Wing Chun – he’s done the same with Chi Sim… Robert’s even felt the need to “quality check” a recognized instructor like Sifu David Peterson. Robert collected information from GM Hoffmann to write an article on Chi Sim and promote the lineage, that article still hasn’t materialized, but in the meantime Robert – who had the gall to tell GM Hoffmann that Hoffmann’s own instructors mistranslated the 18 Kiu Sau and wrote the “correct” translations – started teaching some of the Chi Sim information as his own without giving credit to the Chi Sim family under the Chu Sau Lei name. He’s not much of an expert, is he? On the other hand, the VTM openly acknowledged its relationship with GM Hoffmann, promoted several workshops, helped to produce a DVD, and continued to maintain a friendly relationship. I can’t speak for Robert’s relationship with GM Hoffmann so I won’t.
People are seeing one side of things. Can you see both sides? Robert’s students are welcome to see the tape… but be careful. What if it shows Robert Chu saying a lot of negative things about other lineages. Can you accept that? Anyone can make up a rumor… at one time Robert Chu called HFY a cult but Alan Orr’s the one with Chu’s name tattooed on his body.
The current situation is not about lineage, skill, or history… it’s about the lack of character in one person: Robert Chu. Robert’s been free to say whatever he wants about whomever he wants when he wants… and now the consequences of those actions are coming out.
Yeah pretty much except as a long distance student he didn’t experience these things in person like Chango.
BFD.
Chango has as much right as anyone else to fling sh!t at his or his seniors’ percieved enemies. As he’s pointed out to me on a few occasions, it’s a public forum, everyone has a right to post what they want.
This behaviour makes him no better or worse than any of the other parties involved.
But the sh!t-flinging behaviour makes your assertions of any special claims he has to warriorhood or any other claims to some sort of noble aim patently ridiculous.
Give up the hero worship. You sound like an eight year old.
Aaaaaahhhh, YES…
I just love the smell of napalm in the morning! :eek:
(Robert Duvall in “Apocalyse Now”).
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;732461]No brag intended, Chango, just stating the truth. And I’ll tell you another truth: so is anyone and everyone who is out there really fighting, they get hit, choked out, submitted, tapped, and every other thing you can think of done to them. Even the best. Go visit the Militech camp sometime. So if you aren’t getting your ass kicked, you aren’t fighting. End of story. That’s the nature of the game we play. Without the punishment, there is no real development. And no real knowledge.
[/QUOTE]
As much as I think Terence is full of it mostly, I agree with this and can relate to it. And although I don’t live in the midwest, visiting MFS and getting tapped by Matt Hughes and Robbie Lawler sounds like a d@mn good time!
I pointed this out because if you are used to this, if this is your routine, challenges or intimidation become meaningless to you. And your perspective on things is very different from those who don’t. For example, if you really fight, you won’t go around calling yourself “master” or “grandmaster” – you’ll know better.
Terence
Why don’t you tell that to “Professor” Carlson Gracie? And if you think challenges and intimidation aren’t in MMA, then I’d question how much genuine exposure you really have to it.
[QUOTE=passing_through;732548]Everyone is free to believe what they want but when you start to go out of your way to directly accuse others of lying and intentionally misleading people, that says a lot about your character.
[/QUOTE]
What does it say about character when a person goes around spreading HFY oral history as “the truth” or “the true history of wing chun” when they know they have no real evidence – evidence that is independently verifiable – to support those claims?
What is that saying about people who live in glass houses? 
According to the VTM, all Wing Chun comes from the Southern Shaolin Temple.
THEN WHY DON’T YOU PROVE WITH INDEPENDENTLY VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE TTHAT HFY EXISTED PRIOR TO GARRETT GEE? If you can’t prove your lineage back one generation, how can you say it goes back to the Shaolin Temple? LOL!
Therefore, it would make sense that Hung Fa Yi, Traditional Wing Chun, and Chi Sim Weng Chun all share similarities in a certain way. But each family also preserves a unique identity. For example, Chi Sim and HFY maintain Kiu Sau. TWC doesn’t have Kiu Sau. HFY and TWC maintain Chi Sau. Chi Sim doesn’t have Chi Kiu. These aren’t different words for bridging exercises either. Each term represents a different category of training for specific parts of the body, specific tactics and strategies, and specific ranges. By analogy, they are different types of engines. A Battleship engine is different from a Tank engine is different from an Airplane engine is different from a Submarine engine. The laws of physics apply to each the same, they are made of (mostly) the same types of parts and materials, but each has unique, specific requirements best suited to the environment in which it operates. So quoting GM Hoffmann as saying that HFY and TWC are similar doesn’t mean a whole lot. What’s the context in which he is referring? It’s possible that he meant from a Kiu Sau perspective. Roberts quote doesnt give the context of it so it can be misleading to the uninformed.
First of all, your explanation for these various drills or exercises isn’t correct IMO. Second, the “fact” that a branch of WCK has or doesn’t have some drill does not prove relationships – you only prove lineage by proving lineage. Branches can “adopt” drills from other unrelated lienages (for example, HFY could have taken kiu sao from chi sim, which seems likely since it is not mentioned by HFY until fater the VTM’s association with Hoffman) or drop drills from their syllabus and still be realted.
The situation is like math. Any kid can learn + and - and the numbers 1-10. Algebra has + and - and the numbers 1-10 but they are used differently. Same with calculus: same parts but different use. Robert’s kinda like a kid… sure there’s similarities between basic math, algebra, and calculus but is a kid learning basic math qualified to talk about the distinctions between all three? Using Algebra won’t build you an airplane. You need more specific training. Robert likes to talk about letting application be your Sifu. If application is all hes working with, hes set a very low standard for himself and his students. Trial and error is a long way to go to get anywhere. And for Robert, it didn’t seem to work too well: his own Sifu disowned him, his Sigung said his skill was lacking, GM Cheung said Robert didn’t understand basic Wing Chun concepts (like one hand can trap two), and GM Hoffmann totally owned Robert in free Kiu Sau. For someone who likes to tear down others, he certainly doesn’t have very far to fall himself.
I don’t speak for Robert or for anyone but myself, but IMHO all there is is application, the rest is BS. If you think application is such a “low standard” then please by all means show us “the good stuff” in action.
Again, everyone is free to believe what they want. But Robert Chu takes thing a step ****her, making personal attacks. Saying you agree with ‘this’ or ‘that’ is fine too. But saying that this instructor is the king of whatever takes things too far. It’s the lowest form of character. What is Robert Chu really about? He openly criticized HFY as not being Wing Chun hes done the same with Chi Sim Roberts even felt the need to quality check a recognized instructor like Sifu David Peterson. Robert collected information from GM Hoffmann to write an article on Chi Sim and promote the lineage, that article still hasn’t materialized, but in the meantime Robert who had the gall to tell GM Hoffmann that Hoffmanns own instructors mistranslated the 18 Kiu Sau and wrote the correct translations started teaching some of the Chi Sim information as his own without giving credit to the Chi Sim family under the Chu Sau Lei name. He’s not much of an expert, is he? On the other hand, the VTM openly acknowledged its relationship with GM Hoffmann, promoted several workshops, helped to produce a DVD, and continued to maintain a friendly relationship. I can’t speak for Robert’s relationship with GM Hoffmann so I wont.
I find it ironic that for people who seem so concerned about “personal attacks” that this is all we get from you.
I suppose you have studied with Robert to know what he teaches as part of his CSL WCK curriculum? Hmm? No? I guess he must be holding out all the chi sim stuff on us that train with him.
People are seeing one side of things. Can you see both sides? Roberts students are welcome to see the tape but be careful. What if it shows Robert Chu saying a lot of negative things about other lineages. Can you accept that? Anyone can make up a rumor at one time Robert Chu called HFY a cult but Alan Orrs the one with Chu’s name tattooed on his body.
The current situation is not about lineage, skill, or history its about the lack of character in one person: Robert Chu. Roberts been free to say whatever he wants about whomever he wants when he wants and now the consequences of those actions are coming out.
Just because people say negative things doesn’t mean the things they say are untrue. There is an easy way to counter people who say negative things about HFY – provide independently verifiable evidence that what you say is indeed truthful. It’s really simple. The complaints about “character” are only a dodge – a way to stir things up to distract people from the real issue: FHY/VTM’s utter lack of independently verifiable evidence to support most of their claims.
Question: where is the independently verifiable evidence that HFY existed prior to Gee or that Wang Ming existed and was skilled in WCK?
Answer: That snake, Robert Chu! Let me tell you this is all his fault, he’s just trying to . . . blah, blah, blah.
Terence
Terence, the one thing all your input is lacking is information. Without information all your logic flow can’t connect. There are a few points you are missing, or seem to not understand because of your fixation on “things”. I’ll just point out two of them:
- without learning HFY or Chi Sim - your perspective and analysis is very shallow. The Chi Sim Kiu Sau and HFY Kiu Sau are not the same at all. I am no expert on Chi Sim, but I have played with its Kiu Sau and I am quite aware on the nature of HFY’s many Kiu Sau categories. I have learned enough of both to know they are very different. In other words: THEY ARE NOT THE SAME, nor are they borrowed or reguritated from one another. You can’t say the same, now can you? Your presumption on the Kiu Sau matter doesn’t mean a whole lot cuz of your lack of experience in this matter. Robert’s opinion on the Kiu Sau topic is also severely lacking in research.
and this is the BIG point:
- in the case of Robert Chu, I highly doubt that (considering his history of interactions with other kung fu Sifu, and unscrupulous sense for etiquette) he deserves anything from HFY at all. So demand all you want about “INDEPENDENTLY VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE” until your head pops off. A bank won’t approve a loan to someone with a terrible credit history, and Robert’s got a few bankruptcies.
Terence, since when did you become such a knowledgeable expert on all Wing Chun? Hanging around Hendrik too much are you?
TWC = HFY ; NO
KIU SAU = CHI KIU = CHI SAU ; NO
But I’m sure this won’t register with you.