I gotta disagree with you on that statement. Blade retention in the thrust has to everything to do with a good and comfortable handle so the hand does not slip onto the blade. Whole blade cultures the world over use defensive cutlery without a guard or quillon. People the world over get stabbed all the time with lethal results with common butcher knives which do not have ANY guards on them.
I don’t disagree that this doesn’t happen. People get killed with all sorts of weird and haphazard things in a blaze of fury. Frankly, there’s not much about the injuries incured by the stabbers vs injuries incurred by slashers. Many butcher knives have blades that at the base are wider than the handle. Although technically, this is not a guard, it serves as one. Not the best though. Especially when slick. My point was, that when the blade becomes slick, the likelyhood of slip is good.
The orginal bowie used in the sandbar fight designed by Rezin Bowie looked like a giant butcher knife as does the 1836 Searles/Flower fighting bowie created by Rezin. Top notch bladesmiths of today make many performance based tactical blades without any guards. The guard really is more of a trapping/duelling device IMO.
Yep, it can be used for trapping, but it is there to be used to protect the hand both from being hit in a parry if used that way, and more importantly from sliding down the blade when the hand becomes slick or if the hand is not strong enough to push through its target with a piercing strike.
The original Bowie knife has a significant guard that achieves eactly what I’m talking about. The guard on an original bowie knife is wider than the blade and wider than the handle creating a stop for the hand that will prevent it from sliding onto the blade.
Its all about the handle and a simple and capable blade shape. I do like finger choils but not for retention. I like them more for blade control. Go work your knife with some grease on your hands with your training pell if you use one. Any old tire works well for a dummy as does cardboard with foam.
lol, so you’re a purist, so sue me.
grease hands and a target is actually not a bad idea, but again, I wouldn’t do this with a cheap non-molded handle, unguarded piece of junk, because in solo training, the only person getting hurt is yourself and why would you wanna do that?
Why would you purposely spill your own blood?
The knowledge pre-exists you to train safely. If you are solo knife training and you hurt yourself or cut yourself, then clearly you haven’t examined the pre-existing knowledge.
Now, live blades with a partner is an advanced skill and it may occur that someone can get severly injured. But again, training with a partner means extending some courtesy when doing so with live weapons in “reality” scenarios, resisting opponents etc etc.
Even so, I do believe that in the scope of the greater majority of martial artists both here and elsewhere do not do live blade training with a partner with the exception of choreographed sets or moves.
Not withstanding soldiers in the field.
I dont plan on playing with any knives for a little while. Ive cut myself enough times as it is. Last time i went to the emergency room the lady told me Ive avged. about 2 times a year there since 1st grade…
:eek:
The actual making of the Bowie knife was a progression of knife designs. The first knife was claimed to be designed by his brother Rezin in Avoyelles Parish in Louisiana and made by a blacksmith Jesse Clift in order to protect his younger brother from some of the company he was keeping
This knife was referred to by many as Bowie's butcher knife that was used at the Sandbar Fight. Another rendition of the story according to Jim's older brother John was that a blacksmith named Snowden, made a hunting knife for Jim which was used during the duel. Either way the prototype and the legend had begun
In 1827 the famous duel occurred across from Natchez, Mississippi on a Mississippi River sandbar. As a second in the duel, Bowie found himself in the middle of the ruckus armed with a butcher knife. In the events that followed Bowie found himself badly beaten, shot and stabbed but before him laid one man cut to ribbons and another one disemboweled
In 1830 in Texas, Jim Bowie armed with the famous Bowie knife made by James Black, was attacked by three men hired to kill him. The stories flourished as Bowie wielded the heavy knife against his attackers. In the end, one man was almost beheaded, another was disemboweled and the third had his skull split open
The original Bowie knife was two inches wide and a quarter inch thick with the blade being about 12 inches long. The back of the blade had a soft metal inlaid to catch the opponent's blade during a scrape. Razor sharp was the top edge of the clip point. [B][U]In order to protect the hand a brass quillon was in place[/U][/B]
At the Alamo, Jim Bowie had his trusted Bowie knife. As the Alamo was overrun by the Mexican army, Jim Bowie laid on a cot in the Low Barracks with his Bowie knife and pistol at hand. Tales exist that before he was killed that he took out nine of the oncoming soldiers
In the end, the bowie knife lost the capital B but its' fame has continued to grow. The original Bowie knife was never found
Originally posted by MasterKiller I think that applies to just about everything.
right, but with the wide arc of the staff, there’s that extra room to be countered if you miss, and also while attempting to generate power. Of course there are the linear snapping and whipping techniques, but using those, you just shortened your reach some, making you more accessible to the blade of your opponent…
When I read “whipped”, I assumed “used jing to buffett”, in otherwords, waxwood staff play, not swinging the staff. Which sort of works on a pivot, like you were saying, Rogue. In other words, I think you’re talking about a similar thing. Maybe I’m wrong.
Yeah, that’s what I mean. I’m thinking primarily of Northern waxwood staff play.
Is it better than a stun-gun? No. But a long pool stick is very similar in weight to a waxwood staff, so it’s more practical training than say, a Kwan dao or double swords.
At any rate, I’ve used it in sparring, and it can be done with a degree of success, but I’m not exactly anxious to test it against a live blade.
Again its a matter of personal viewpoint and research. I don’t think a guard is needed. The guard can stop a hand from slipping up onto the blade but IMO it was designed much more for counter protection and trapping. The spanish quillion uses a whole method of trapping and catching with its prongs. IMO good control is about a comfortable textured grip.
This being backed up by the note that many world blade cultures like the FMA and IMA arts that use crude knifes without standard style fighting guards. There are at least 5 bowie knifes that are believed to maybe have a connection with James Bowie or the knife design used by Rezin.
Out of that five the first three are basically large butcher knife based designs with a flat back design and without a fighting guard or a curved blade or clip point. One can be seen in the Alamo chapel and it is called the Searles/Fowler bowie. It was created by Rezin and given to Daniel Searles of Baton Rouge during the year of 1836. Some researchers believe it is based off of a spanish hunting knife and that it bears a STRONG resemblance to the knife Rezin gave his brother before the Sandbar duel.
Number 5 is the Bart Moore knife which is similar to the pic you posted and looks like a classical fighting/duelling bowie as used throughout American and during the civil war. The Bart Moore knife is supposedly the knife that Jim Bowie took with him to the Alamo and it bears the initials J.B. on the back side. Though like all the knifes there is no historical documentation to back this up. This is the bowie that some researchers also believe Bowie commissioned from the Arkansas blacksmith Jim Black.
The Bart Moore knife is clip tipped and has a wicked trapping and protective guard.
It does not matter anyway. After the sandbar fight the bowie became legendary and it was the weapon of choice to back up single shot weapons of the day. Cutlers as far as Germany, Spain, and England were making making bowie knifes for the American market as well as such big companies as New York’s tiffany’s and Will and Finck of San Francisco. Many of close looking but different designs.
Let’s not even get started on handle design. During the mid 19th century you could get coffin handled (my favorite-favored by riverboat gamblers) sloping pommel, oval shaped, and enhanced grip.
One of the features of teh bowie knife and knives like it that I find interesting is the soft metal strip on teh back of the blade.
When used in parry or catch, it actually gives way and the knife that strikes it gets stuck in the soft metal. Giving time to twist and disarm the offender.
Brilliant idea imo.
I still think that superior knives give hand protection as well as an offensive edge (pun fully intended )
I don’t like the end over end method of throwing that much. It is a very accurate method and it produces results but from a combative standpoint I like the old point first style as used by the early gamblers and frontiersmen of the gold rush era.
It is very good at close range and can be thrown at darn near point blank. Extact range is not that important because the blade does not turn after it leaves the hand. The knife lays in the palm of your hand, your thumb hooked over the handle for securement. keeping the blade in place. The throw involves a motion like when you are bowling.
I like the Gerber bowie, how can you not like anything with a coffin handle, I don’t own a Gerber bowie but it would be a nice pickup, I own a assortment of solid cheapo’s and good stuff. I don’t like the bottom knife just because it has a sub-hilt, I would bet the knife itself is great, its just that I find sub-hilts to get in my way when I am changing grips and I don’t find them comfortable.
thanks, my girl has gotten a sudden yearning for learning how to throw and she’s already bought some books off of amazon but I didn’t recognize any of the names.
my own method is actually a 1/2 turn no matter the range. I don’t like the multiple end over end either but I used to be pretty decent out to about 30’ with what I did.
The only thing I throw point first are some 8" center punch spikes I made by grinding down the end to a nice point. Those things are sweet to toss. {need to find them and play some}
I’ve caught a lot of criticism for my choice of the sub hilt but I like it. Had a grisly old Soke tell me he’d break my fingers if I ever came at him with that blade. I respectfully told him he’d probably break my fingers anyway.
