MK, I’ll agree with what you have said about staffwork but the methods you are describing are not the full gamut of staff play.
The caveat to the staff is that no matter how good you are with it it still has a longer arc. I think you need to be a better staff player than your opponent is at anything else to beat them at it.
But, I think that’s why CMA folks start the staff at the very beginning of training and in the hands of a true staff virtuoso it can be unbeatable.
MK, I’ll agree with what you have said about staffwork but the methods you are describing are not the full gamut of staff play.
Well, I wasn’t trying to write a manual on how to use a staff.
I think you need to be a better staff player than your opponent is at anything else to beat them at it.
I think that applies to just about everything.
Originally posted by MasterKiller
[B]
I wouldn’t want to fight a guy with a knife. But if I had to, I’d rather have a staff than nothing at all.
[/B]
I can agree to that.
Nice post topic,
I consider a good sized and viable self defense staff to be one about hanbo or walking stick size. They are more realistic in terms of accessability than a really long stick.
I mean everybody can get access to a baseball bat or cane. Plus the tech’s break down and hold up better when you have to go into corto range than a long stick and the basic training methods also hold up better when you go to smaller blunt objects like maglites. At least in my humble viewpoint.
I like to work a stick up close besides just sledgehammer like strikes and whirling cuts. Two handed pokes, handle bar smashes, short but strokes, are examples. These help out when in close and are wicked nasty. I also find these bayonet based techs don’t overcommit me to hasty swings where my knife partner can rush in after a swing makes it’s circle and start pumping me with the trainer.
In close I have to guard my criminson center and watch my limbs for any biomechanical cutting he feeds me but that rules applies anyway for empty hand. If I had to go against knife I would pick a gun.
I watched a demonstartion on tv where they timed a police officer drawing his gun, taking quick aim, and shooting off a round compared to a trained knife fighter cover 25 feet to a target and then stab the target. The knife guy got there quicker by a half of a second. Of course this assumes that the knife was in hand and the gun had to be drawn first, but it was interesting. I can’t remember what tv show had this demonstration but it was discovery or something like that. Anyone else see that show?
MK, it did sound a little like that. Don’t mind me, I’m in a mouthy mood at the moment.
And, to an extent, you do have to be better than the other person in whatever you are doing to beat them but I think that the staff is harder to “master” than some other weapons due to it’s size. Spear, kwan dao and the other large weapons would be the same I think. Just my opinion of course. I’ve been playing staff for over 20 years and I’d sooner go against someone w/ double sticks than a staff any day and I’ve been doing them for less than half that time.
Black Jack(you know you just can’t shorten your name to ‘BJ’)
I agree. When I moved and started teaching independantly of my sifu I moved the long staff back and brought the short stick stuff forward for the same reasons you bring up.
JP, I seem to remember that but not exactly what show or whatever.
It really boils down to basic techniques:
ALL weapons have some of the same ideas…
CI - (Tzu) thrust - this is the one with the staff that was just described. The sword uses it as a stab…
Beng - popping up. With a staff, this is a low to high uppercut type of strike or block…seen a lot in southern staff. For straightsword, this is a popping up usually under the wrist of the opponent to cut the wrist from below
Pi - Chop - for staff, an overhead smash. For swords, a chop cut
Dian - Point - for staff, used mainly fo strike a low target like the foot with the end of the staff (spear is similar but will make the opponent bleed), not used too much for Broadsword, and for straightsword it is a nicking cut from above.
Gua - slide block…coming down and redirecting to the sides - usually sets up for a counter using Pi… used in all of them
Jie - Intercept - a block strike that intercepts either the part being blocked or the part being struck…for staff and spear it is usually a side type smash or block. For swords, it is a side cut.
Kan - angle slash - angled strike with the end of the staff or spear using body torquing for the power. for swords, more wrist and arm.
Lan - rising block…a rising block for staff, spear, or swords.
Liao - a backward circling block strike - for staff and spear, this is an uppercut strike. For swords, this is a upper moving slicing cut.
Jiao - circling - parry circling for all of them…
Then you get into special techniques. for example, La Na, Zha for spear (block, sieze, thrust)
Then in use, you try to make all of these techinques come out at the proper time.
mmmmm… we don’t do weapon sparring. apart from not being able to afford the kind of equipment it would require (we are not a rich kwoon, we made 700 bucks in the last few months, which in american money is about 350 bucks) the neccessity of it is… low. new zealand is one of the safest countries in the world (the police dont even carry guns, and we haven’t got SWAT teams) so we focus on empty hand sparring. the day I have to use a staff to defend myself is the day I walked into a gang lords house with a “I hate black people” sign on my back.
I have heard of that demo and yeah a fast knifer is scary quick.
But a person who knows what he is doing or has specific goals on his mind won’t try to show you the blade anyway. From a attackers perspective I would keep it open but concealed till the very last second then blast the guy with something to distract him like a palm strike or forearm under the chin to break his balance and visual awareness and then start inserting the blade into targets where medical management is difficult to maintain.
Or better yet mace him from a few feet away and then work him over.
I think a problem with the cop demo is that he used strict sighted fire instead of strike, draw, shoot, close quarter handgunning methods like point shooting.
Originally posted by Black Jack
[B]But a person who knows what he is doing or has specific goals on his mind won’t try to show you the blade anyway.
[/B]
Very true.
Originally posted by Black Jack
[B]
I think a problem with the cop demo is that he used strict sighted fire instead of strike, draw, shoot, close quarter handgunning methods like point shooting. [/B]
True too, but I think the demo is to show a regularly trained cop how dangerous a knife can be even at a distance and when the cop knows the knife is in play. I don’t recall it being srict sighted fire, but the cop did raise the gun to shoulder level as opposed to the hip.
Originally posted by Ikken Hisatsu
the day I have to use a staff to defend myself is the day I walked into a gang lords house with a “I hate black people” sign on my back.
are u speaking hypothetically or are u referring to the day you ‘come out’? 
hypothetically of course
Plus, by whipping the staff, you can keep pretty much anyone at a 5-ft distance. Everyone always forgets that a staff whipped against the knee or shins can stop a fight just as quickly as a whack on the head.
That’s a one shot, you miss you’re a possible deader. What little I’ve learned of work with a bo is it’s never swung, it’s used on a pivot.
Check this link about a jo weilding aikidoka at a dog brothers gathering.
unregistered link…
the link doesn’t work. can u copy and paste the text?
my personal fav and weapon i practice most is eyebrow height staff.
Like a mountaineers hiking stick.
I prefer it over most other weapons.
I really appreciate the value of a knife with a nice wide guard though. (knives without a guard are mostly useless imo when it comes to piercing, but aren’t too bad for slashing) Much like a classical dagger as opposed to a hunting knife, folding knife etc. Reason being when you try to punch a hole with a slick knife, say covered with some blood, most times your hand will go down the blade and you cut your fingers while not getting much penetration.
with a good guard on the dagger, this is not as much a factor an you can drive a knife in deep without harming your own hand.
people who stab using a gladius technique or ice pick technique and don’t have guards on their knives will most times not pierce deep and will cut their own hand. so, no guard=keep techniques to slashing. You wouldn’t believe how slippery a blade gets with a little blood on it and it’s even worse when its your own.
A staff on the other hand, using double headed technique is highly effective for smacking the jesus into somebody. I don’t use many single headed techiques such as the thrust that MK talks about and prefer the double head techniques because they don’t require the accuracy that single headed techs do. pretty effective and a broom is a great substitute, or any stick really with a little length, so long as it doesn’t snap when ya smack someone with it.
the classical weapons are interesting to play with for sure and you can get pretty good with them even without “actually” cutting someones arm off.
well, cheers! 
yeah i dont much go for the great big long staffs. the one I have is about the same height as me and fits just perfectly into the boot of my car _b
When I read “whipped”, I assumed “used jing to buffett”, in otherwords, waxwood staff play, not swinging the staff. Which sort of works on a pivot, like you were saying, Rogue. In other words, I think you’re talking about a similar thing. Maybe I’m wrong.
Basically, making the waxwood bend. Not a poke, but a blow, buffetting your opponent as they get close, usually in the midsection.
I think some sort of sparring is important with weapons, but becomes problematic with the larger ones, and the weirder ones(hook swords, etc). Still, great fun.
I usually get my best weapons sparring in in Rome at my apartment. They call me the doctor.
shaolinarab: Here you go, trimmed it a bit
Posted by ChrisHein on 07-14-2003 06:23 AM:
So I fought with the dog brothers…
Well I was threatening to do it months ago, the gathering of the pack was today, and so i decided to see what the aiki jo I had learned could do.
I don’t know how many of you have found this out and have been keeping it a secret, or how many didn’t even put it together, but aikido IS a weapon system!! I’m sure like me, many of your have done the weapons forms, and known that many of aikido’s techniques come from sword and weapon techniques. But I’m not fooling around here, Aikido IS FOR REAL when it comes to weapons! I fought with a jo, and I only had one fight, but the man I fought was a full fledged dog brother, and from what I had herd, he was quite good! And I tell you what, the aiki jo training I have received (Iwama ryu) worked like a champ!! The kumi jo, and the suburi, worked exactly as I had been taught them! As many of you may know from my past posts, I have been more then a little critical of Aikido’s Taijiutsu, and have quickly pointed out it’s short comings in this field. I have been in lots of fights, and I have trained with fighters, from this I always known that ther was something just a bit different’ in a fight, then Aikido might have us believe. This is not the case with weapons (the jo at least) It works exactly as prescribed! All of the sensitivity training and intention work; it really pays off! It works just like i learned it!
The dog brothers are a top notch group of guys!! I can not over infasize how welcome they make you feel, and how honest and willing they are to share what they know with you. They call there tournaments (I don’t know a better word to use) gatherings, and that’s exactly what they are, It’s simply a bunch of martial artists, coming together to train really hard, and find out what works and what doesn’t. These guys are good! They are legitimate and honest, that’s to bottom line! For anyone out there looking to master the stick fighting arts, These are the guys to see! Awesome!
I think any aikidoka who is beginning to question what he has been taught, should enter into a stick fight! It’s for real, and that’s no joke!
Chris Hein
Chris Hein
my spelling sucks, but you should see my shihonage!
Posted by Jack B on 07-14-2003 04:21 PM:
That’s excellent, Chris. Glad you escaped contusions!
Does anybody know if any SMR or Seitei Jo trained people have “tried their wood” with the Dogs?
Jack Bieler
Posted by stanley neptune on 07-14-2003 06:26 PM:
Posted by szczepan on 07-14-2003 07:29 PM:
ChrisHein, have you been using any padding and helmet or did you fight without any protection? What were the rules of this sparring? What kind of weapons were involved? What is a name of your Dog brother?
regardz
Szczepan Janczuk
Posted by ChrisHein on 07-14-2003 07:49 PM:
You ware only a fencing helmet and gloves. The rules, well there really were’nt any, there was some head butting, and kicking, (when it came to a clinch) wrestling, and there are no weight class’s. This is not to say that anyone was trying to kill anyone, it was still friendly, but it was on a very real leaval. His name was ben, his dog brother name is lonly dog, he was as tough a guy as I have met, not to mention just a good guy. He was useing a bando stick, and I a rattan jo(roughly the same length stick) I stood in ken kame most of the time, and it worked quite well. I receaved a rather hard hit to the right leg (it’s quite swolen today) But i belive I would have lived to fight anouther day in a real fight.
chris
Posted by A. M. Jauregui on 07-15-2003 01:30 AM:
The dog brothers are a wonderful group of people. I have never really trained in jo but the Itto bokuto work that I have done made it a fun. I am too old and have moved past such full contact matches however.
Thanks for the interesting insight Chris.
Posted by ChrisHein on 07-16-2003 06:47 PM:
I have had other competitive fights, but this was my first stick fight. In the training for the jo that I have done, we did very little actual free practice stick sparing, we did lots of two man forms, and lots at high speed, I believe that this is what allowed me to feel so comfortable with the blows coming down on me. I do regular stand up striking practice (san shou) and I believe that this helped also. Mostly I stood in ken kamae (holding the jo like a sword) but I did switch to jo kamae (holding it in a jo stance) several times, my opponent stuck to holding the stick like a sword. In Iwama ryu, we practice lots of step by step movements, and lots of intention work, and zanshin exercises, which up till now had never had a very noticeable effect on my ability to fight. This is to say that when I practice hand to hand fighting, I wouldn’t say that feeling and intention came much into it (in the manner it was taught to me), however when faced with a stick that was trying to crush me, for real, I felt like I had friggen’ spidy seance! When your fighting with a stick it’s a different game, you don’t wanna get hit, even once (this was reinforced to me by my leg that still hurts after 3 days), and neither dose the other guy, you can’t really risk just running in and hopping you tackle the guy, or just “slug it out” till someone backs down, cause the stick could kill you!
I would say that the way I have been trained is very effective(it worked for me) but, I think regular sparing would still make it better, it seems to work for the dog brothers!
-chris
Chris Hein
my spelling sucks, but you should see my shihonage!
Posted by Amir on 07-17-2003 11:33 AM:
Another question
Posted by ChrisHein on 07-17-2003 06:27 PM:
Yeah, a bando stick and a jo are almost the exact same stize, one major differance is that they tape one side of the bando stick for a grip. And of coarse it had effect on my “tactics” he was trying to smash me with it!
I do think that the seriousness of the weapon has a great effect on the style of fighting. For instance, if I had a gun, you whouldn’t just charge in and say “oh well i’ll take a few shots and i’ll get him”. Of coarse it’s no where near this degree with a stick, but thats the idea. I belive(if you don’t wanna be mortally wounded) that you need to be much more aware, and much more precise when it comes to weapons work. the way aikido seems to be taught (all styles that i have seen) it seems to lend itself much more readily to this form of fighting.
as for the excersizes we did, they were of the long pause, focus on your uke/nage, and feel them out type. I don’ t know how i could go into much more detail, I would have to write a book.
I have been training for 6 years now in Aikido, I was an uchi deshi for a year, and trained every day for about 2 years with a jo, and now I train muchless. I think you can hard wire most of the jo work we do into your system in about a year of dilligent practice. If you wanna know more about Iwama jo work, you should look for one of saito sensei’s books, or you could uchi deshi with any of the many high ranked Iwama instructors here in California.
chris
Chris Hein
Posted by Vapour on 07-20-2003 07:43 AM:
What interest me is how kendo practioners would fare in this. Would they sweep all dog brothers or would they get arse kicked because kendo has go down the line of sports?
-Youji Hajime.
Posted by ChrisHein on 07-21-2003 05:46 AM:
Well I would say this might be a reason that I say Aikido worked exactly as it was suppost to. Yeah, I would say most of my strikes were clean, and hit well, and I had a seance of connection the whole time. But don’t get me wrong it was still a fight, eventually the distance was closed, and it turned into a grappling striking match, at this point I was very happy to had studied BJJ! But as far as the weapons stuff went, at distance, It was aiki all the way, and I belive had I faced anyone of lesser skill then the man I fought (I would say 75-80% of the populas) the distance would likely never have been closed, and the fight would have ended with my first few strikes.
Chris
knives without a guard are mostly useless imo when it comes to piercing-kung lek
I gotta disagree with you on that statement. Blade retention in the thrust has to everything to do with a good and comfortable handle so the hand does not slip onto the blade. Whole blade cultures the world over use defensive cutlery without a guard or quillon. People the world over get stabbed all the time with lethal results with common butcher knives which do not have ANY guards on them.
The orginal bowie used in the sandbar fight designed by Rezin Bowie looked like a giant butcher knife as does the 1836 Searles/Flower fighting bowie created by Rezin. Top notch bladesmiths of today make many performance based tactical blades without any guards. The guard really is more of a trapping/duelling device IMO.
Its all about the handle and a simple and capable blade shape. I do like finger choils but not for retention. I like them more for blade control. Go work your knife with some grease on your hands with your training pell if you use one. Any old tire works well for a dummy as does cardboard with foam.