WC is totally effective, if you let it to be.

[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;1166856]The ideology is you win some and you loose you some…There are numerous videos of WC loosing to guys of other styles…Does that mean forget WC an learn how to kickbox or muay thai or mma? No…it simply means you need more practice so your skill level will be higher![/QUOTE]

Actually it might be beneficial to actually go and watch how kickboxers, mt, and mma guys approach their practice to see what you might need to change in how you practice.

The definition of insanity is to keep doing the same things and expect different results.

[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1166881]Actually it might be beneficial to actually go and watch how kickboxers, mt, and mma guys approach their practice to see what you might need to change in how you practice.

The definition of insanity is to keep doing the same things and expect different results.[/QUOTE]
Agree 100% there.

This remind me something happened many years ago. After a guy lose his fight, he complained, “What can I do? My opponent has long arms and long legs.” From his comment, he had never sparred with people who had long arms and long legs before. If he doesn’t find a sparring partner with long arms and long legs, he will lose his fight exactly the same way if the same condition will meet.

[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;1166856]The ideology is you win some and you loose you some…There are numerous videos of WC loosing to guys of other styles…Does that mean forget WC an learn how to kickbox or muay thai or mma? No…it simply means you need more practice so your skill level will be higher![/QUOTE]

I genuinely think WC guys should cross-train vigorously.

[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1166881]

The definition of insanity is to keep doing the same things and expect different results.[/QUOTE]

perhaps

Form Integrity

These are some of the things that Ive recognized (train of thought) from each training form: Sil Lum Tao, Chum Kil and Wooden Man that kept me from deviating from true wing chun structure and to maintain power while sparring in a full contact situation. This is what always seems to keep me in check while sparring (a blessed situation). Ill talk more about the Wooden Man later; have to get back to work.

Sil lum Tao: Form Integrity

To even begin the idea of real time application (clean & recognizable), you have to make sure that the upper extremities from structure to structure connects to and through your stance; and if your stance training focus on sinking energies, which helps keeps the hands very relaxed and responsive to physical reactions with structural integrity from a form/stance point of view. Each movement (application) of your SLT form should literally jam, wedge or slice its way right into your stance. Once you lose your stance in fighting, youre no longer doing wing chun.

Youre taught to reroute energies with structures in SLT, you cant do that without a good stance. The more you can control your balance (stance) while under pressure (fighting), the more you can stay calm and responsive with the idea of structural integrity/awareness; that keeps your opponent uncomfortable and off balanced when crowding his/her space. Dont think about footwork, just stay in your stance no matter what and let your feet move naturally; with or without the idea of bracing (stance alignment with upper extremities); depends on your offense or defense and what you decide to do with them.

The hands will automatically make room to move around, just from having a comfortable seat to sit in (good stance) and from the idea of training structural integrity/awareness. And if one can master the idea of, he goes fast then you go slow and in reveres; the same for, he uses hard energies, and then you use soft energies, while training in his/hers drills. Thats mastering the idea of timing and structural/transitional awareness. Its nothing like beating your opponent by being in the right place and at the right time.

Your hands and arms must have a very strong relationship with your stance (second nature) before the feet can recognize the hands in movement, hence inviting the connection to the early stages of body unity through your stance and upper/lower extremities, which helps promote the idea of: the feet following the hands (Chum Kil).

Ill do a lot of shadow boxing to always maintain a good connection between my feet and hands.

http://youtu.be/UQ66geARK1c

Also with free style movements in a two man situation which stress the best or proper structure within an open flow of energies (structural integrity).

http://youtu.be/i-l9Awtnd5E

Chum Kil: Form Integrity

Sil Lum Tao doesnt trust you to take one step in that form. It isnt very much more that one can say or do; as far as applications in this stage (CK) because SLT is the seed, and if you fu*ked that up (no mastery), then you need to start over. Dont just do SLT, but master it. The main thing for me when dealing with Chum Kil is mobility, speed and balance; while learning how to put fuel into your overall wing chun structures.

The most common mistakes wing chun fighters make are: they keep their feet and hands separated from their stance while engaging. They look all good before contact is made; with a great and impressive looking wing chun pose to boot. But, when contact begins, they forget to take their feet with them on entry; therefore cutting their stance/energy in half, and cant produce any recognizable wing chun structures from that point on because they lost their center of gravity -or- balance (looks unrecognizable and very bad).

The stance is the first thing you really need to master, waaaay before the hands. See, its like a tree, the thought or foundations/mastering ones center of gravity are the tree roots, stance and -or- the tree trunk (interdependent structures). Concentrate on this because this development causes a relationship between the applications or limbs using the proper energies from a stance point of view, as the trees roots follow the sway of the branches, forming the idea of body unity (moving stance) and while moving the feet naturally with the hands.

The hands are like the leaves. A soft leaf represents a healthy leaf, which tells the tree branch to swing and sway lively and freely. A hard leaf represents a dying leaf, which tells the tree branch to harden up for the winter -or- die. If your tree doesnt grow healthy (the right combinations of interdependent structures), the roots will never follow/support the sway of the branches (body unity/chum), yet alone, stay in season without reading the leaves (the right application when needed from reaction); meaning the feet will never recognize the hands.

When moving, your applications must move in the form of one, driving each structure together within its place as each intent/outcome of application is only derived through the energies of interdependent structures, and the feet follow the hands through body unity, this is why youre taught to do the Chum Kil form fast as possible without deviation once you learned it, and have it under control. Its like building a new relationship between your hands and feet through your stance, while never losing the mentality of SLT when moving; mentally/physically connecting the two forms together.

http://youtu.be/YH2RgRoiQ50n

[QUOTE=EternalSpring;1166939]perhaps

[/QUOTE]

I think you need to re-read what you wrote there.
Practice is suppose to equal BETTER results and when it doesn’t, practice gets modified.
Basic learning 101.

I believe that there shouldnt be any sparring in wing chun (three/five years sometimes longer until one has mastered the first three sets.). When dealing with wing chun in a application standpoint, you deal with things that you havent experience through life on a regular bases: structures, energy, concepts, and so on. Some men will sometimes take things with an aggressive push or too much zeal, which in most cases it turns physical. There are a lot of things that one can do to develop reflexes, timing, body unit, positioning without knocking each others teeth out.

Its no wonder why some of the history of this system was accredited to women (sensitivity); who knows, maybe its reverse psychology too actually slow down mans aggressive nature while training in wing chun. Because I think the idea of physical experience (aggressiveness/free style) before the mind is truly stimulated is just a waste of time.

By not understanding the metaphysical connection between what youre doing and trying to do, and while doing something you truly dont understand (sparring) is only counterproductive within the true nature from what youre trying to accomplish or develop. Sil Lum Tao, Chum kil and Wooden Man: are all training forms, if you truly master those forms and the concepts within them; from a stance/form point of view, then everyone will recognize what youre doing and your skill level will show.

And if one hasnt trained in a contact sport and doesnt understand the depth in which one has to gracefully block, pull or counter, hell never be able to land a single strike or punch without taking a head shot himself, it takes a strong mental awareness to pull this off and thats dealing with something natural; like, something youve been doing all your life (jab, left, right, hook.).

You have to train everything to the point of it becoming second nature to be able to pull off recognizable wing chun while maintaining strong structural integrity. To get in a ring with something you dont have by second nature is only about pride or near suicide (just my opinion).

YOU cant develop good wing chun that way; unless you already have a very strong understanding of body unity and structure awareness to the point of it being second nature (Sil Lum Tao, Chum kil, Wooden Man) and to use it in real time and for it to be successful and recognizable just like anything else in life. When spending so much time deviating, one will become lazy and sour to true or real development within ones own system in which he or she studies. Hence pushing the idea of the physical or sparring, while trying to supplement their understanding; before its truly understood and mastered from a very basic standpoint.

When one cant do the class work they immediately try to prove their point/value by rushing to the job (physical/free style/applications) and most of the time they fail without the right education. This is why some cant tell the difference between wing chun or kick boxing when seeing a sparring situation, and what you havent mastered will show up in your sparring (trained eye.). That should be even more of a good reason to stick with the training forms as long as one can (If the ego allows It.); to have a solid foundation, is to have working applications, the fastest way to true wing chun development.

A lot of wing chun practitioners/fighters sometimes develop a bad foundation from a stance point of view. If you truly understand how to re-route energy within your stance -or- defend yourself with very little movement/effort and without being pushed, picked up or pulled from your stance, while letting the lower extremities move naturally.

Only then will you have a strong chance to develop a recognizable interpretation of what your system is; or look like within a metaphysical idea -or- in real time application; meaning that the lower extremities will recognize the upper extremities when under pressure, physically forming the idea of body unity. Then everyone can clearly see what is; and what youve done while sparring.

Wing Chun has a great inside game (clinch, traps and sensitivity) which all stems from a very strong stance. In which keeps this fighting system recognizable and clean to the eye. We should have a good understanding of structural awareness (upper extremities) in which connects and keeps a strong stance manageable and mobile while the feet follow the hands.

Were quick to rush in judgment (physical) to prove a point; by not giving our sensitive train of thought a chance to examine. And its not based in what system you may train in that causes deviation, but its ones own train of thought. Anyway, its your development within the system that counts.

Ali

[QUOTE=Ali. R;1167677]I believe that there shouldn’t be any sparring in wing chun (three/five years sometimes longer until one has mastered the first three sets.). [/QUOTE]

I completely disagree. Look at what the functional or combat arts are doing for comparison. You see people walking in off the street with zero training, and within one year be able to effectively compete in an amateur MMA match complete with striking and grappling. And the one year of training is from the more conservative or better schools. Many fly-by-night schools will go with the trial-by-fire method of putting someone in a fight within three months.

If you wait 3 years before any sparring in wing chun, in comparison that aligns with a MMA fighter having around 6 or 7 amateur fights, and being almost ready to turn pro. Starting to spar then is going to put someone so far behind it will be next to impossible to catch up.

I think there should be sparring from day one in training. There are plenty of ways to control that to help provide exposure to noobs without detrimental effects.

Or I guess the alternative is to stop promoting rhetoric around building fighting skill, and just accept the inevitable conclusion of building standard businessmen into paper mache tigers.

[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1167690]I completely disagree. Look at what the functional or combat arts are doing for comparison. You see people walking in off the street with zero training, and within one year be able to effectively compete in an amateur MMA match complete with striking and grappling. And the one year of training is from the more conservative or better schools. Many fly-by-night schools will go with the trial-by-fire method of putting someone in a fight within three months.

If you wait 3 years before any sparring in wing chun, in comparison that aligns with a MMA fighter having around 6 or 7 amateur fights, and being almost ready to turn pro. Starting to spar then is going to put someone so far behind it will be next to impossible to catch up.

I think there should be sparring from day one in training. There are plenty of ways to control that to help provide exposure to noobs without detrimental effects.

Or I guess the alternative is to stop promoting rhetoric around building fighting skill, and just accept the inevitable conclusion of building standard businessmen into paper mache tigers.[/QUOTE]

Agree, crazy to teach a fluid mobile fighting method by not addressing real speeds of action, balanced movement under pressure…

[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1167690]I completely disagree. Look at what the functional or combat arts are doing for comparison. You see people walking in off the street with zero training, and within one year be able to effectively compete in an amateur MMA match complete with striking and grappling. And the one year of training is from the more conservative or better schools. Many fly-by-night schools will go with the trial-by-fire method of putting someone in a fight within three months.

If you wait 3 years before any sparring in wing chun, in comparison that aligns with a MMA fighter having around 6 or 7 amateur fights, and being almost ready to turn pro. Starting to spar then is going to put someone so far behind it will be next to impossible to catch up.

I think there should be sparring from day one in training. There are plenty of ways to control that to help provide exposure to noobs without detrimental effects.

Or I guess the alternative is to stop promoting rhetoric around building fighting skill, and just accept the inevitable conclusion of building standard businessmen into paper mache tigers.[/QUOTE]

Its good to disagree, it keeps the mind flowing and sometimes help those who can see what others cant.

You are dealing with energies/mind set unlike boxing, grappling, and so on Right from the time when you were a little child you can recognize most of the moves and concepts from boxing, grappling, and many other physical ideas when it comes to fighting and sports.

But if you havent develop a good relationship with concepts that you never seen or heard of before, when sparring youll only go right back to whats natural within your muscle memory, and without the right mentality youll never get started in learning anything.

Hence, throwing your art right out of the window while sparring prematurely, and will still try to claim it as an authentic demonstration of what youve studied, when its clear that there is no development, mentally and physically. Wing Chun or kung fu is not MMA.

If someone walks the streets wondering when and if he or she will have a fight, then they need to move away from that area or grow up. If you want to be able to defend yourself on a pro level using kung fu; within one year of training, I suggest learn to do this and get good at it, or take MMA.

http://youtu.be/m_vZ90qpvxo

Ali

[QUOTE=k gledhill;1167694]Agree, crazy to teach a fluid mobile fighting method by not addressing real speeds of action, balanced movement under pressure…[/QUOTE]

Oh it’s taught, but in the right time of development, and not because one may think he’s ready to fight, but his training will dictate the next level, if one is true to himself.

Ali.

Wing Chun was developed to fight the Manchu as quick as possible. It is a martial art so it’s about the fighting. Fighting should start as soon as possible. Who cares if it looks pretty as long as you win.

You learn to fight by fighting, period.
No way around it.
To state that a WC practitioner shouldn’t fight in the first 3 years ( much less 5, LOL), is stating that WC is GROSSLY INFERIOR to every other MA in which the practitioner can AND does fight even before those time frames, and they fight well.

[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1167697]Wing Chun was developed to fight the Manchu as quick as possible. It is a martial art so it’s about the fighting. Fighting should start as soon as possible. Who cares if it looks pretty as long as you win.[/QUOTE]

Yep, and I add that in NO WAY can you EVER develop correct structure, footwork and technique to counter a LIVE opponent UNLESS you fight and fight often.

[QUOTE=Ali. R;1167695]Its good to disagree, it keeps the mind flowing and sometimes help those who can see what others cant see.

You are dealing with energies/mind set unlike boxing, grappling, and so on Right from the time when you were a little child you can recognize most of the moves and concepts from boxing, grappling, and many other physical ideas when it comes to fighting and sports.

But if you havent develop a good relationship with concepts that you never seen or heard of before, when sparring youll only go right back to whats natural within your muscle memory, and without the right mentality youll never get started in learning anything.

Hence, throwing your art right out of the window while sparring immaturely, and will still try to claim it as a ligament/demonstration of what youve studied, when its clear that there is no development, mentally and physically. Wing Chun or kung fu is not MMA.

If someone walks the streets wondering when; and if he or she will have a fight, then they need to move away from that area or grow up. If you want to be able to defend yourself on a pro level using kung fu within A year of training, I suggest learn to do this and get good at it, or take MMA.

http://youtu.be/m_vZ90qpvxo

Ali[/QUOTE]

Ving Tsun REQUIRES sparring as a goal to aim for …unless you want to wait 5 years to figure out you made an error for 5 years before learning it was there …er, sparring.

Sparring doesnt have to be brutal, it has levels of pressure a teacher can put a student under to show the student and teacher where weaknesses might be…

Drills are modules that allow a mutual exchange and pressure increases, tests , NOT to spar, the drills are the correction time.

Sparring is Pressure testing the whole package.

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1167698]You learn to fight by fighting, period.
No way around it.
To state that a WC practitioner shouldn’t fight in the first 3 years ( much less 5, LOL), is stating that WC is GROSSLY INFERIOR to every other MA in which the practitioner can AND does fight even before those time frames, and they fight well.[/QUOTE]

Sure, you learn to fight by fighting, but if you don’t study or master your weapon; then you and your weapon will not be as one. If your gun jams in combat, you should be able to break it down within second; because you were trained to master that weapon before using it.

Ali

[QUOTE=Ali. R;1167703]Sure, you learn to fight by fighting, but if you don’t study or master your weapon; then you and your weapon will not be as one. If your gun jams in combat, you should be able to break it down within second; because you were trained to master that weapon before using it.

Ali[/QUOTE]

You can’t master something without using it dude.

[QUOTE=k gledhill;1167700]Ving Tsun REQUIRES sparring as a goal to aim for …unless you want to wait 5 years to figure out you made an error for 5 years before learning it was there …er, sparring.

Sparring doesnt have to be brutal, it has levels of pressure a teacher can put a student under to show the student and teacher where weaknesses might be…

Drills are modules that allow a mutual exchange and pressure increases, tests , NOT to spar, the drills are the correction time.

Sparring is Pressure testing the whole package.[/QUOTE]

In Wing Chun you train to spar, then from there you learn how to fight/spar.

Ali

Think this is relevant to the topic:

Progressive resistance and Variable Intensity.

http://jkdunlimited.com/articles/by-burton-richardson/progressive-resistance-and-variable-intensity/

[QUOTE=k gledhill;1167700]Ving Tsun REQUIRES sparring as a goal to aim for …unless you want to wait 5 years to figure out you made an error for 5 years before learning it was there …er, sparring.

Sparring doesnt have to be brutal, it has levels of pressure a teacher can put a student under to show the student and teacher where weaknesses might be…

Drills are modules that allow a mutual exchange and pressure increases, tests , NOT to spar, the drills are the correction time.

Sparring is Pressure testing the whole package.[/QUOTE]

We agree Kevin…:confused: jk