WC in MMA

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
21

[QUOTE=chusauli;1005268]
Aaron is using my system, at the end of the fight, he has trapped the opponent and is executing several punches in succession before he submits him with a guillotine (last move of Biu Jee).[/QUOTE]

if that is trapping, then every bully in the united states who gets his victim in a headlock and starts pounding away is a wing chun expert too.

aaron won the fight because he was in better shape. the other guy was gassed.

aside from the alleged “trapping” what other use of wing chun was there?

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[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1005297]LOL… but you have the “real” WC that works, while these guys don’t, I suppose. :cool:

Funny how every single guy in the history of WC who puts other people down for not using their WC “correctly”, but claims to have the “real” stuff himself has absolutely zero evidence of this. I guess you can join the join the crowd on that one.[/QUOTE]

there are lots of videos out there. if the only evidence you consider valid is winning an MMA fight, that is another thing.

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[QUOTE=Pacman;1005299]there are lots of videos out there. if the only evidence you consider valid is winning an MMA fight, that is another thing.[/QUOTE]

Please post one.

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[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1005297]LOL… but you have the “real” WC that works, while these guys don’t, I suppose. :cool:

Funny how every single guy in the history of WC who puts other people down for not using their WC “correctly”, but claims to have the “real” stuff himself has absolutely zero evidence of this. I guess you can join the join the crowd on that one.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think that I hold a monopoly on good WC. That WC guy who smoked you in that video seemed to have pretty good WC. Ducan Leung’s guys have outstanding WC. I am sure that other members of this forum do as well.

Edit:
Dale, if you are just here to start your usual nonsense, then I recommend that you get a permanent ban. If you are going to post clips like the one at the top of this thread and call them WC then you have absolutely no idea about WC and really have zero business on this forum or any kung fu forum for that matter.

25

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1005250]What I am saying is that I don’t think it prudent to paint with a broad brush (what should WCK look like) but rather make the question a personal/individual one (do you fight like you train to fight).

You DO need to put anything you do in a MMA environment since that environment permits the contestants to fight in all ranges (stand up, clinch and ground). What good is your stand up if you can be taken down at will (which completely neutralizes your stand up)?

When you do put what you do in a MMA environment, you will find that it will force you to greatly adapt your game.

MMA isn’t a “style” or an “art” – it is a ruleset, an environment. Fighters who compete in MMA, or just practice it for fun, do what works, whatever works. If you show them something that works better, they’ll steal it. There is a reason that you see the same things in all MMA fights – those are the things that have proved to work consistently, and so people adopt them.

If I put you in a MMA environment for 6 months and had you spar regularly, you’d start doing those things that work and stop doing those things that don’t (since you’d keep getting killed doing those things).

When you don’t go through that process, it is easy to fantasize about what you would or could do.[/QUOTE]

This is my point. It is a ruleset and an environment. In order to compete there everyone has to adopt and adapt. They end up with the same ruleset so they pretty much end up having to use the same fighting techniques and methods as everyone else. I can not and probably never could compete in the ring, as it is with most everyone else. We have exceptional individuals that shine there, and a whole bunch of other people that really want to. A gung fu system is designed to be used in a way as to make you equal to others as best as possible. In the ruleset environment of MMA you also have to be extremely fit in order to compete with any real expectations. Just look at the top fighters in MMA today. Would you have any prayer of a chance in beating any one of them? No. Most of us wouldn’t. Some of them got caught shooting steriods to make them stronger. This is the key with MMA. Learning and skill are following far behind physical training and strength training. In order to get a fellow into an arm bar, kemora? You have to be stronger than he is in order to force the arm into position and hold it. And if you are not strong enough it won’t happen, or he just might force his arm out of it. Just look at all the top guys. They are all well above average in what they do. Everyone else is just wishing. You can not reasonably expect any none sport fighting system to be able to do anything in such an environment.

26

[QUOTE=Pacman;1005298]if that is trapping, then every bully in the united states who gets his victim in a headlock and starts pounding away is a wing chun expert too.

aaron won the fight because he was in better shape. the other guy was gassed.

aside from the alleged “trapping” what other use of wing chun was there?[/QUOTE]

Pacman,

That is a trap - its not going to be “Fan Sao” like in Chi Sao… that’s fantasy stuff. In real fights, you do it that way to deliver the goods. See how Aaron does not wind up- his hands strike from where they are.

You look at the body and you know the pressure Aaron is exerting comes from the body structure. But then, I know most people in WCK have no body structure and can’t see it. They merely strike from the arms, which is not enough to knock anyone out.

Its okay to criticize, but what do you do in MMA matches? Show me your good WCK and ideal WCK working. My grandstudent Aaron can at least deliver the goods and won.

27

[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;1005302]I don’t think that I hold a monopoly on good WC. That WC guy who smoked you in that video seemed to have pretty good WC. Ducan Leung’s guys have outstanding WC. I am sure that other members of this forum do as well. [/QUOTE]
Seems to be no evidence of any of them fighting full contact… what a surprise. :rolleyes:

If you are going to post clips like the one at the top of this thread and call them WC then you have absolutely no idea about WC and really have zero business on this forum or any kung fu forum for that matter.

Funny, but I’d be willing to bet Aaron and his guys would beg to differ in terms of whether or not they are using WC.

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[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;1005306]This is my point. It is a ruleset and an environment. In order to compete there everyone has to adopt and adapt. They end up with the same ruleset so they pretty much end up having to use the same fighting techniques and methods as everyone else. I can not and probably never could compete in the ring, as it is with most everyone else. We have exceptional individuals that shine there, and a whole bunch of other people that really want to. A gung fu system is designed to be used in a way as to make you equal to others as best as possible. In the ruleset environment of MMA you also have to be extremely fit in order to compete with any real expectations. Just look at the top fighters in MMA today. Would you have any prayer of a chance in beating any one of them? No. Most of us wouldn’t. Some of them got caught shooting steriods to make them stronger. This is the key with MMA. Learning and skill are following far behind physical training and strength training. In order to get a fellow into an arm bar, kemora? You have to be stronger than he is in order to force the arm into position and hold it. And if you are not strong enough it won’t happen, or he just might force his arm out of it. Just look at all the top guys. They are all well above average in what they do. Everyone else is just wishing. You can not reasonably expect any none sport fighting system to be able to do anything in such an environment.[/QUOTE]

WOW!!! Talk about clueless.

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[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1005313]Seems to be no evidence of any of them fighting full contact… what a surprise. :rolleyes:

Funny, but I’d be willing to bet Aaron and his guys would beg to differ in terms of whether or not they are using WC.[/QUOTE]

Maybe so but if I remember correctly, Aaron or someone close to him posted the clip the first time. It basically got the same review that it is getting now. I know that my post was deleted and maybe the whole thread. It has been a while.

30

That’s the thing about Orr’s guys. No one is saying they can’t fight, but what they are saying is that it’s not WC. I used to be one of those people until I did more research on what they do, took a look at their 7 DVD set and therein were the principles of wing chun being used, along with the punches, and varied use of techniques like lan sao and other things. It’s not 1800’s WC, it’s applied WC from an MMA perspective for modern day.

So now I look at it as more of an mma using WC elements type of style, because it’s got wing chun in there, just not in the traditional sense

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[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;1005315]Maybe so but if I remember correctly, Aaron or someone close to him posted the clip the first time. It basically got the same review that it is getting now. I know that my post was deleted and maybe the whole thread. It has been a while.[/QUOTE]

What a surprise! All the theoretical, fantasy, non-fighters trash-talked the fighting of a WC guy who is actually going out there and fighting. No wonder WC is generally a laughingstock. The pretend guys are telling the guys who are actually out there representing that they are doing it wrong.

But OK, lets assume you are right, that they are unable to use their WC. That must mean that WC, as a system, suks big time. Take a guy and training him in wrestling, bjj, boxing, muay thai, and/or sambo for 8 months or so and he will be able to use the majority of what he has learned.

I saw him using BJJ quite effectively, even though he has significantly less BJJ training than WC training.

Oh well, I guess that just speaks to the superiority of BJJ.

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[QUOTE=chusauli;1005308]
That is a trap - its not going to be “Fan Sao” like in Chi Sao… that’s fantasy stuff. In real fights, you do it that way to deliver the goods. [/QUOTE]

WC or any other fighting style won’t look 100% like how you practice because in a real dynamic situation you have to adjust for distance, angles, balance, and a ton of other things etc.

I get that.

However you can’t call grabbing a guy behind the head and punching him trapping. That is simply ridiculous.

I can tell you objectively and unemotionally why that is not WC trapping. It has nothing to do with how it looks either.

The whole point of trapping, the whole idea is to neutralize your opponents weapons be it hands or feet. So lets say you trap an arm then you have two of your hands against his one. You are safer. Now you have the advantage. That is trapping.

By standing in front of someone, putting one hand behind your opponents head and punching him is not trapping because you are still in the line of fire. He can hit you just as much as you are hitting him. The fight is still an open exchange.

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[QUOTE=Vankuen;1005317]That’s the thing about Orr’s guys. No one is saying they can’t fight, but what they are saying is that it’s not WC. I used to be one of those people until I did more research on what they do, took a look at their 7 DVD set and therein were the principles of wing chun being used, along with the punches, and varied use of techniques like lan sao and other things. It’s not 1800’s WC, it’s applied WC from an MMA perspective for modern day.

So now I look at it as more of an mma using WC elements type of style, because it’s got wing chun in there, just not in the traditional sense[/QUOTE]

curious. what is modified? what principles are they doing?

im talking about in the fight.

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[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1005313]Seems to be no evidence of any of them fighting full contact… what a surprise. :rolleyes:

Funny, but I’d be willing to bet Aaron and his guys would beg to differ in terms of whether or not they are using WC.[/QUOTE]

I must say - Dale I respect, as he understands what fighting really is about. You train your art and develop your skills - then you use them!

It answer to the question - Aaron and my guys all train wing chun - chu sau lei wing chun - which I feel is very different to a lot of wing chun as we use our forums and chi sao to develop our skills - timing, positioning, power and so on. Then we fight - punch and kick!!! Thats martial arts.

The forms and chi sao are about personal development of your skill, its not fighting! I was sparring tonight with Neil and a top MMA fighter who comes to learn our punching, power development and timing etc and I can tell you most wing chun guys would not last 20 seconds with these guys. Its hard work!

In wing chun you see So many people doing forms and chi sao, but no sparring or fighting! The forms and chi sao are Training tools. Like a boxing on a speed bag. You don’t see them bring a speed bag to a fight or punch in the way they punch a speed bag. Its very funny, as really good wing chun as a lot to offer - we have training protocals that help us develop our skills to become second nature. But a lot of wing chun guys don’t see that the art is in the application under pressure.

Its when you are in the hole being punched and you see that opening that you are awake. Doing forms and chi sao is like drilling armbars and having a light roll in BJJ. Thats all good and important, then you have to step it up and see what works well all the time and also for you. I really feel that a lot of wing chun guys are only doing half the training! lol Time to try the other half - the hard half!

Before you judge you have to understand. I train Wing Chun, wrestling and BJJ with top instructors, I have trained with top fight trainers, I have 20 guys in my group fighting MMA, I train, teach and learn from top MMA fighters, my guys have won Pro and Semi Pro MMA fights (with our wing chun) - so I feel I have the background to have an informed view.

These clips are Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun -

Neil Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun punching

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiSYTNJDvUg&feature=related

Wing Chun Boxing -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPxklnLPeRM&feature=related

Chu Sau Lei chi sao demo -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKkp19KV9xg&feature=related

Best

Alan

35

Good post Alan. You and your guys are the antithesis of the pretend, theoretical non-fighters saying you are not using “real” WC. Keep up the good work.

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[QUOTE=Pacman;1005319]WC or any other fighting style won’t look 100% like how you practice because in a real dynamic situation you have to adjust for distance, angles, balance, and a ton of other things etc.

I get that.

However you can’t call grabbing a guy behind the head and punching him trapping. That is simply ridiculous.

I can tell you objectively and unemotionally why that is not WC trapping. It has nothing to do with how it looks either.

The whole point of trapping, the whole idea is to neutralize your opponents weapons be it hands or feet. So lets say you trap an arm then you have two of your hands against his one. You are safer. Now you have the advantage. That is trapping.

By standing in front of someone, putting one hand behind your opponents head and punching him is not trapping because you are still in the line of fire. He can hit you just as much as you are hitting him. The fight is still an open exchange.[/QUOTE]

You have no clue bro!

trapping - is controling your opponent.

If you roll in BJJ you will find that pinning and trapping is all about control skills.

Wing Chun is the same. If you can’t move well then you are limited and then you are set up.

Its not about trying to hold someones hands so they can’t hit you. Thats just holding and hoping! If an opponent can not work their game that are trapped.

This may be just to slow them down or to make them gas from using to much energy etc but in the end its about the result it produces.

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[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1005323]Good post Alan. You and your guys are the antithesis of the pretend, theoretical non-fighters. Keep up the good work.[/QUOTE]

Thanks Dale, keep fighting the good fight bro

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Alan,

Can you illustrate for the guys who’ve not looked into chusaolei stuff what (in originally posted clip) was directly from a wing chun skillset?

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[QUOTE=Vankuen;1005326]Alan,

Can you illustrate for the guys who’ve not looked into chusaolei stuff what (in originally posted clip) was directly from a wing chun skillset?[/QUOTE]

Punching Power development

Structure power - ie rooting - base - linking and delinking frame

Balance and reaction to pressure

Positioning

Angles of punching

Cutting punches - control of line of attack

Forward pressure

Don’t look for lap and pak of bong sao guys!! These are you blueprints for your own understanding of the space you use around you. They are not blocks etc

If I use a cutting punch on the outside of your arm. Ie a wing chun punch that uses your forearm to pin (trap)as you punch then I quickly punch again. that is the energy of pak and lap - Ie one hand punching and cutting then as it pulls back it draws and the second punch then cuts.

Pak and lap drills are for students to learn the angle, timing, position - then you just throw 2 punches - with good timing, good position, good line control (trapping)

You don’t need two hands on one!

best Alan

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[QUOTE=Alan Orr;1005324]
Its not about trying to hold someones hands so they can’t hit you. Thats just holding and hoping! If an opponent can not work their game that are trapped.
[/QUOTE]

never said anything about holding hands. i said its about neutralizing their attacking weapons like their hands and feet.

if you define WC trapping as basically any method to controlling an opponent so that they cannot work their game 100% then thats great. You can’t argue with someone’s definition. Its better that understand someone’s opinion than agree.