…it’s a leopard fist strike with the palm to the top of an opponent’s head. I’m thinking there must be some as yet unknown dim-mak application?
If the strike is directed just above the temples on the top of the head in the area where the hair parts this area has a whole host of gal bladder points that when struck can result in unconsciousness or cause the opponents legs to weaken significantly. One of the places where a Mor Kuil can be used to strike that I have seen cause a knock out.
As to useless techniques from forms - never seen one yet.
On strike on top of head:
Such strikes are used in kung-fu but also in other arts,I believe.
While human skull is very hard,generally speaking (previously mentioned strike to forehead (frontal bone) may be foolish in a way that frontal bone is pretty hard,it can still cause a knock-out,neck damage,inner,bleeding (inner for sure) and death.
This is quite questionable though,because as previously mentioned,thick it is…)
Besides back of head/base of skull region and pressure points,vital points still remain on top of head.
Frontal fontanel (also known as “baby spot” of new born infants) is located on a curve between top of head and forehead more towards the forehead,skull is weaker in there.
Coronal suture-top of head what you were probably speaking of (point where lines of bones connect) is very notable area.
There are various effects that may follow if either of these two points are struck (also remember of pressure points of which “baihui” on the top can kill in a heartbeat)
Both of those areas mentioned can result in death if enough force is applied,skull fractures,internal bleeding,knock-out,weakness…this kind of effects,can´t be more specific right now (affects various nerves)
It would be best to use a stick or related weapon but a downwards palm slap or maybe hammerfist might be good (leopard fist sounds hilarious,but if it´s necessary to form for using palm heel…ok)
Useles moves…
dim mak strikes that go for a spot located somewhere between opponent´s third and fourth ribs of left ribcage,in the depression on X cartilage near X nerve usually under the arm when…yadda yadda.
i think to try and over focus a technique to that extreme is a useless idea, not to mention idiotic…but to just use the technique to slam their ribs (or whatever) on that side…well, that’s useful.
Neptunesfall,
Yeah.Nothing wrong with a rib strike (of course in a case where you´d be going for a point around floating ribs an example,it could work very well even if you would not hit the spot)
My point was that such complicated attacks to targets that can barely be located and which are usually covered by clothing,possibly heavy which takes all of the fight out of the technique.
O.K. really specific strikes are useless to Former castlevania.
That third and fourth ribs on x place of tissue graphting z…I would use when they throw a hook. But only use it during Spring or Summer when the clothes are light enough for my strike to matter.
some of the kicks i hav learnt are way impractical…hell even if u were that good at them you would probably be knocked out while you are airbourne anyway. crescent kicks…i know what they aim to do but i find it very hard to believe that in a real situation this could be used effectively unless the opposition was some dumb drunken ediot who stood there waiting for it.
with kung fu i find that…physical size and strength does matter…in a real situation the smaller guy has all the odds against him…i know…i am one of those small skinny guys
i havent been learning mizong long but from what i have learnt…i would stick to kicking the knee joint…and the simple block (swipe of your forearm across your face and grab)…and kick!
one of the senior students showed me some practical moves i hadnt been taught in class…but i find i would probably struggle to actually use these techniques in a real situation against sumone who is 99% likely to be bigger and stronger than me
The biggest mistake I ever made was thinking I knew what was effective and what was worthless as a begginer. Practice those movements hard because you are learning how to make future techniques effective. Otherwise, you’ll only have your couple of techniques and when you fight, you won’t even have those.
OK, butterfly kick to me always looked like a useless move – wind up, launch yourself up and around with both feet behind you at parallel or higher than your head, then land in the same position that you started in (typically riding horse stance). Done well, it looks beautiful and wushu-ish; done badly, it just looks bad.
Then my instructor was showing us application the other night and we asked him about butterfly kick. Sure enough, there’s an application, and the feet do need to hit a target. I’m still not sure about its effectiveness, though.
Mizong kid: Bigger & stronger isn’t necessarily better. Bigger students tend to use brute force to get their way and often don’t practice fine techniques exactly, because they think they don’t have to. There’s nothing more satisfying than putting a wrist lock on someone a foot taller than you and walking him out of the room. Practice like crazy and find the fulcrum/leverage points in every move and you could control the Hulk if you want.
I use the inside and outside crescent kicks not as kicks, but as SPINS.
Sometimes, I need to get away from my opponent very quickly in a rotatory fashion. I have yet to find a drill that teaches a student how to spin away from guys better than a crescent kick does.
I noticed that somebody brought up the leopard strike to the head. The key to doing this move is understanding that the attack should be applied to the bones of the face. Hit yourself in the cheekbone or clavicle with a leopard strike GENTLY to imagine how much damage that would do to an opponent at full force.
As far as fighting bigger and stronger opponents go, being smaller is definitely a liability as far as controlled sparring goes. But as far as illegal moves (e.g. streetfighting) is concerned, the smaller man can evade his attacker much more easily and get away faster.
Also, smaller men can be difficult to grapple if they have trained to attack vital areas in the course of combat.
Crescent kicks to spin. It is my belief and experience that the body will naturally spin away or into an opponent as directed by any given counteraction/interaction or what I call dynamic interaction. Although I am a firm believe that a kick is merelya step…it is an awkward step compared to how the body can be directed with flexed legs on the ground. But hey…I wouldn’t think to tell you how to fight.
The ‘panther’ fist to the face?? Another interesting take. This move is generally accepted as a soft tissue strike. This is the beauty of Chinese MAs. There are many fists (strikes) that can be used and any will generally work, but the reason there are so many is because of…as I call it…dynamic interaction. If I am going to strike the throat, then I’d rather have a stabbing fist such as the ‘panther’ fist. If I were to striek the face, then a clenched full fist is great as it covers much surface area and incorporate strong bone joints to transfer power…power that can best be described as a crushing fist. Just as I would use a finger strike to the eyes vs a ‘panther’ fist for the same area.
And truth be told..not that I’d tell you how to do your MAs..anyone applying a ‘panther’ fist to the face will soon understand why this is generally not an accepted move.
Regarding other comments made int his thread: I am a proponant of low rooted stances in fighting. But the thigh parellel to the ground stance…sorry…I’d like to see ANYONE use that effectively. Truly. I would like to see someone use it outside of a semonstration.
An useless techniques in my style? Hmm…I guess I have ever to use a crane block. I have used the cranes beak to attack…once more affirming my earlier comments that all strikes have a place. The cranes beak being another soft tissue strike. I can use it nicely to the throat. It is a dangerous strike to use though, but that also depends on how it has been taught and employed.
I luv the tiger claw. When properly employed, I’ve yet to have it blocked. It is such a strong strike utilizing strong muscles. Plus it’s fun getting into the beast…if ya know what I mean.
The only useless techniques are the ones you don’t train enough to be able to apply properly.
It is natural that each of us will be comfortable with a select few techniques and we will each master that selection. But don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater and proclaim that a technique is useless because you haven’t been able to understand it yet. Keep it, keep working it at every opportunity and add it to your select few
I like fu jow strikes as well, especially continuous and relentless claws. This has worked for me in sparring just for the sheer attack overload it causes the opponent.
The leopard fist as I was taught it is as Nospam says, a soft tissue strike and works well when used to “slash” across the throat. Either yin or yang palm facing, inside or outside motion.
Cranes beak is good too, though I would use it to the eyes or as a scooping trap for low roundhouses (it has really worked for me in this fashion)
Anyway, it’s all good, you just have to work it and work it, then work it again.
In my school, we don’t do the leopard strike to the face in sparring because we’ll cave in our cheekbones even with “accidental” strikes.
I don’t like clenched fist punches because the jing is too spread out for me to be happy with. That little leopard knuckle to the face is far more painful for an opponent to deal with because it has a far less surface area and a much greater velocity for me. Also, the angles of attack to the head open up with the options I have with a leopard strike.
When somebody grabs me from under the arms from behind in a reverse bear hug, I’ll often apply leopard strikes to his hands to cause him to release me. Try hitting the back of your hand GENTLY with a leopard strike to see how much pain this can cause if applied with full force.
The crane block I use all the time. When a guy grabs me with both arms, I often use a “fuk sao” like motion to grab his offending arms to read his motions. I use the forearm and wrist to control the guy and perform my maneuvers, not the hand itself.
I’ll also use the crane block to ride up over an opponent’s standing guard so that I can strike at the rest of him. This is the “til sao” technique from Wing Chun. Of course the opponent can counter that, but that’s the way real sparring goes anyhow.
Generally, I do the crane strike more as a SLAP than as a poke. I’ll slap the groin or the ears or even the front of the face. The cupped crane hand is a very dangerous weapon.
There’s two different kinds of leopard fists which I think are getting confused here - slashing and stabbing. The soft tissue leopard fister’s are probably thinking of it like a punch. The throat being an obvious target. In the Hung Gar two man sets there’s also a leopard fist stab to the opponents waist, near the kidneys.
The facial bones or temple strikers are probably using it as a slash. I’m skeptical about a temple strike mainly because there are better weapons for that, the phoenix eye? cranes beak? As an overhand downward slash like the one in the leopard part of Sup Yin or like the numerous tsop tsoi featured all thoughout choi-li-fut, I think the eyebrow is good. It doesn’t wound severely but it can cause bleeding. It tends to open a cut and a cut over the eye, as any boxing fan knows, is not a good thing.
One thing I want to add to the cheekbone comments… more specifically the tempero-mandibular arch. Not the front part of your cheek bone. Find that knobby bony protrusion under what we lay people call our cheeks. Finf the little ridge that connects it to a spot in near your ears. That little bony bridge is thinner than a pencil.
Other leopard sticke targets include the TMJ, just below and in front of the ear and also Clipping the nose .
Fun with anatomy! get your mothers permission first.
Perhaps I should abandon Training with Use Low Kicks to the Leg since it Sounds like they Have no effect On People who train properly.
Don’t even joke about it. I have seen about six professional Muay Thai fights won by relentless kicking to the thigh and lower leg. I have also seen one title fight (not sure which title) finished by the 1st leg kick of the fight. And trust me, these guys are conditioned to the nth degree.
Leg kicks are the bee’s knees, the wasp’s nipples, the major erogenous zone of every insect in the southern hemisphere.
1st, in contradiction to an earlier post on a previous page. NO FLAMES INTENDED! Simply a seperate thought on the subject. I took Karate for 2 1/2 years and like the previous poster was taught for the most part to keep stationary. However, I now take Tae Kwon Do, and we are taught to move as much as humanly possible. There are techniques and tricks to this though, it is not a jump around and wave your arms type of thing. The techniques are things such as shuffles and switches and the like. The reasoning behind this is that the more “useless” movements that you make, the harder it is for your opponent to know what to expect. Thats TKD’s reasoning, and I must say that it works much better for me than the “rooted” stance of Karate.
Second, I don’t know how you use the crescent kick in Kung Fu, but in TKD it is mostly used when the opponent starts circling or if the opponent is in to close for anything other than a hand technique, and it is impractical at that time. In the second case we use what we call a bent leg crescent kick, I don’t know if you have seen or heard of this(as I do not take Kung Fu)but the kicking leg stays bent throughout the kick so as to better wrap around the back in order to hit the head. Quite useful in my opinion.
Anyways, that’s just my thoughts on the subject.
TKD
There’s a way to do the leopard fist, and there’s a way not to.
When you do it RIGHT, it can do all sorts of damage to the opponent.
When you do it WRONG, the only thing it’ll work on is a soft tissue area - and not that well either.
As far as the effectiveness of temple strikes with the leopard goes, omarthefish, it works great especially in grappling. A hard leopard noogie to the temple is the type of thing that can kill a person, let alone incapacitate him.
I agree with you on the rootedness thing, TKD - as far as point sparring goes.
However, things are different in a real brawl where guys are trying to grapple you. That’s where that heavy but mobile karate stance can really keep you on your feet, especially when facing multiple opponents.
Also, there’s little time in a real fight for “useless” movements. When somebody pulls a gun on you, you’ve got to get to him before he pulls the trigger.
