Useless moves or techniques or stances, please.

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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People seem to regard at least some things as having low functionality~. Please name some of these. Under the thought that everything could be significant in Kung-Fu, I would look for the value of whatever supposedly useless Kung-Fu techniques you all mention.

Thighs parallel or low horse-riding stance was called not mobile. I looked at it and saw three types of movement. I noticed three types of ways to kick to hit. And that I could fight with both arms equally left of center to right of center covering a range of about 165° to 180°. Also, that when in a low to thighs parallel horse-riding stance people couldn’t come in to me from the sides of my legs. With good standing or durable legs it would be not easy to sweep me. And the groin is defensible.

This looking into was Fun for me. And I now have more ways to develop myself.

As I No_Know I look for your help to name Kung-Fu techniques–moves-stances… that you find to be useless in a fight or insignificant-ish.

Pre-wise, thank you all.

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i Would not want To fight from Low Horse Stance. mayeb its Goiod for training but to a fight You could get some Guy kick you in the leg if Hes at the side and it Take too long to shift Weiught and counter or if in the Middle WHOAH big Kick to thwe 'Nads and you would Be Flattened Man!!! What do You think?

3

There’s a move in a form I do, which I think “eh!?!”

Basically it’s an leopard fist strike with the palm to the top of an opponents head.

I’m thinking there must be some as yet unknown dim-mak application?

jpcm

4

that move is used a lot in nhb, only not with a leapard fist. Same idea/angle etc. Its hard to telegraph. JKD does a circular punch for the same purpose.

5

Unstoppable: I once played with a hung gar/streetfighting guy who used to fight from a horse stance. Kicking him in the legs doesn’t work, believe me :wink: Also he was VERY fast and mobile because of all his stance training… so i wouldn’t knock it just coz u don’t use it… :slight_smile:

david

6

okay Dezhen I Believe you but I just dont see How it could work

FOR EXAMPLE

If a Muay Thai Box has His legs to on the Side he will Get kick alot! In the leg!!! (This is just If his Legs is a Bit side on Like a Box not a Thai Box FOR EXAMPLE) SO I dont Know how You could Overcome in a Wight Distebution/Side Onness from Horse Stance??? What technix Did he Utilise to Avoid the Kick???

I would Licke to know (AM NOT FLAMING) because I like Horse stance for Many POWERFUL tehcnix but am Scared to use it because One time I got Kicked in the legs so Bad it made me fall and I dont want That to Happen AGAI!!! (it sucked) :eek: :frowning:

7

Thanks people.

Helicopter,
The leopard fist to the forehead could be just that. I heard it was a very tough part of the head and that someone could hurt their hand/nuckles on one’s forehead. But above or below that tough spot might be weaker. Also, the area above the eyebrows but below the hairline (not too high:-) ) seems weakish to my knocking of it. Also, the leopard fist to the nosebridge seems a possiblly devestating blow. Trained nuckles would be even more significant, Please note that whoever was to be expert at any style would eventually train their body weapons to more fully execute the techniques. And in perhaps at least some instances the basic training or repetitions, trained the necessary bodyweapons, even though no mention is given as to that that’s what’s going on.

Unstoppable, the stance is low enough that I can block it with a flat palm. Also, my lowered height and legs shut off access to the groin when the opponent is on the outside of my feet. My feet parallel.

If my legs are trained enough I dont mind a kick to the leg. My leg has resistance to being pressed in. Also, a kick to the knee can be trapped with a fold and kneel.

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Unstoppable: he didn’t do anyting to stop the kick, my kick did NOTHING to his stance,and that was when i was training Muay Thai… maybe u should train more horse or practise footwork?, coz i like to move out of the way :stuck_out_tongue:

david

9

NK
The strike is actually a downward slap (for want of a better word) to the crown. I know there is dim-mak point there, but to me, even if there is good reason to attack there, it leaves you very open.

jpcm

10

Helicopter,

It seems as though openings can be closed from the other side. And if the technique seems to just stop after the slap~ one should be able to block with the slapping hand or move out of the way even If it’s not in the form. It might be supposed to be a finishing move. The form presents a way to use the techniques. You have to stay alive long enough to use them. The form is examples. Before and after a set of techniques in perhaps several forms is Whatever. It might be interesting to see if you could find a technique from an earlier form or from that same form that covers where the end of the leopard fist stike seems lacking. And when striking be willing to withdraw, to defend. Perhaps.

The head is muchly filled with liquid I comprehend. The reverberation from a trained hand through the hardness of the skull into a liquid might shock the brain into a malfunction or disruption.

Merely offering some thoughts. No offense intended.

11

Are you guys saying that you fight from a set stance rather than use different stances to help execute techniques? I’ve been taught to use as neuteral a stance as possible to start and then use a front, back, horse, etc… when executing a technique and then move. So while a deep horse isn’t practical to fight from it’s very useful when executing a technique where I have to drop my center, like the popular rear bear hug escape, or being pushed from the side.

I’ve been chopped to the top of the head and it didn’t feel very pleasant.

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If you practice something long enough that seems to have no practical value, you will inevitably find a use for it.

13

Some things are for application and some other are for training/conditionning. A good idea is to use them in the proper context.:wink:

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Alright! Shaolinboxer.

Rogue,
Not can speak for the others, I prefer to fight from a single stance to see how it holds up.~ It’s more cool to fight like you were just standing there. But I like to fight with the least resources against greater odds. The more I can do with the least the better I could do with more. So (needle-and-thread), stuff like fighting with only one technique or not moving or while seated or on one leg or from low horse-riding stance…I like these. I think it develops me.

It is better to use a thing where it is appropriate.

15

NK
Thanks for the feedback, definately no offence taken. I hold with idea that everything in the forms has meaning, it’s just with some moves the use is not as immediate.

I’ll have to ask my instructor if that move has a particular dim-mak application. The cupping of the leopard-fist makes quite a popping sound when used in that way, so it might support your brain-reverb theory.

The strike is repeated in a partner form and is applied as an attacking strike so thats how it’s meant to be used.

jpcm

16

Way good

Alright, Helicopter! :slight_smile:

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I like to go into horse stance to bait the opponent into kicking where i am waiting in ambush to destroy his leg.
leopard; center line of skull is a strike point as the skull is in plates and there is a fisure or separation there. most people are not used to a strike from above, not difficult to pull off.

18

The horse stance in all its variations is a fine stance for conditioning and combat. If a person’s stance work is weak, he/she should stay out of it, especially low stances. So, you see many inexperienced martial artists learn stances in class, then throw them out the window during sparring, and start bouncing around like a western boxer.

Before the hate mail starts flying, I am not specifically knocking this approach, it is a contradiction to most Chinese styles. I teach to never move a foot (or anything for that matter) without a very specific purpose. Economy of motion is key for several reasons.

If a person has strong stance work, the horse stance is a fine “center point”, the lower the better (within reason). I find I can move in and out of the stance with ease. I can easily unload the leg closest to the opponent to avoid a sweep or kick. The stance also tends to hold the opponent at a longer distance than some other stances.

The problem most people have with the combat application of the horse stance is similar to the problem most people have with Chinese MA in general.

Let’s say two identical people begin training at the same time - one in Muay Thai (for example), and the other in Taijiquan (for example). They spend exactly the same amount of time training in their respective styles. 6 months later, I would much rather have to fight the Taiji practitioner than the Muay Thai practitioner. This is because it is easier to become effective sooner in Muay Thai. How’s that for a generalization?

However, 3 years later it might be a very different story. Definitely, after 10 years my money would be on the Taiji practitioner. This is because the Taiji practitioner will have a broader foundation, more techniques to pull from, and a less linear approach that is harder to respond to. (This will make me popular with the Muay Thai people.)

My point is that just because a technique (or set of techniques) is harder to master, it is not necessarily ineffective, but it may take much more work to be effective with it.

I tell prospective students that ask me to compare the effectiveness of kung fu to other styles such as TKD or Goju Ryu (both popular in this area). Generally I tell them that it depends on how long and hard they want to train. If they want to quick results and everything to make sense early on, then train in some other style. If they have patience and are willing to train hard for several years, kung fu will take them well beyond those other styles.

Peace,

Brent Carey

19

"If they have patience and are willing to train hard for several years, kung fu will take them well beyond those other styles. "

How’s that for a generalization. there are too many factors that come into play for that to be guaranteed.

Also, the number of techniques is not necessarily a factor either. I’ll use an example I used in another thread - judo. there are like 64 different throwing/takedown techs in judo, but of those 64, how many do you think are used by a practitioner on a regular basis? the person will not be as proficient with the ones that aren’t used as much as he will be with the ones he uses frequently.

the same can be said of CMA - how often do you use a bear claw? when you have to defend yourself, you will use the techs that you train the most, regardless of how many you know - and depending on how well you deal with situations like that, you may not even use the techs you train on a regular basis.

that being said, “If they have patience and are willing to train hard for several years, kung fu will take them well beyond those other styles.” doesn’t necessarily hold true. and I won’t even start on other factors, like natural aptitude and the quality of the school the student is training at…

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Hi Brent Carey,

I’m hoping my legs are good enough to withstand several, people’s level of ability at sweeping them. If I “unloaded” My “front” leg while in a low horse-riding stance, I think that I would find it most valueable to use the “front” leg in a sidekick, Tiger-tail kick, back kick or heel to the chin (or lower).

Equal time in. Six months. I No_Know. Do all Mauy Thai practitioners get the shin development to kick through a bananatree (Or whatever plant that was in Kickboxer (Jean-Claude VanDamme~)? If not, It’s not necessarilly as bad. They would be aggressive and have alot of commitment attacks. I presume that I could use their commitment and over commitment (inexperience) (but six months training Muay Thai does not mean no years of training in something else or experience at fighting situations) to off balance them to trap, to fall,. Also while a T’ai Chi Ch’uaner won’t necessarily have developed Great Ch’i manipulation, they would have tactical straregies that are in the forms. Also, is T’ai Chi Ch’uan useable to initiate an attack? It seems weird to think of it as come-here, let’s fight. Sort of thing.

Since the attitudes of the two styles is different–attacking/no damage, least damage, it seem only a question of how you’ll fare against the Muay Thai-er the only one of the two who would attack. I certainly wouldn’t care to attack.~ :slight_smile: