There’s profound truth to that statement, but its often misunderstood. Teaching a man to fish involves a commitment of time and effort and a will to truly help. You must explain to him what fishing is, how to make a useable rod, how to use the rod, when to use the rod, what is a fish, what is an old boot, and all the other aspects, vital to their success (unless you just want to be a plick and ljust augh as they struggle and ultimately starve).
Many people confuse telling a man to fish with teaching him. “Go fish” is just lazy.
Originally posted by lotus kick … there are those men that just refuse to learn.
Lotus Kick,
There is a lot of truth in what you say. If the student is unwilling to follow, it is not up to the Sifu to change his/her mind. However, it is also important to note that if the student is willing, the Sifu also should ensure that his explanation is clear. Some students just learn differently. Some are a little slower to pick things up, they are not as gifted athletically and may require an explanation that approaches the issue in a different manner. No Sifu should waste one second trying to pry open a closed mind. They probably already have many other students who are open to them, but some may require a little extra attention.
Rene has offered a great explanation of the issue as well.
I agree with what you’re all saying, that learning is a two-way street, teacher has to know what he is doing too, yada yada. Some students, however, are as someone here put it like a clamshell that won’t open.
My question is, should a Sifu allow these closed-minded students to remain in class and potentially exert a negative influence on other students, or should a student who has either no aptitude or no willingness to learn (or both) simply be asked to not come back?
Originally posted by Alpha Dog My question is, should a Sifu allow these closed-minded students to remain in class and potentially exert a negative influence on other students, or should a student who has either no aptitude or no willingness to learn (or both) simply be asked to not come back?
Without hesitation, they should be asked not to come back.
Matrix
First, I’d try to make sure it wasn’t a problem in teaching vs. learning methods. Some students learn visually, some verbally, some tactilely, etc. some can digest right away, some take time to digest. So after running the gammet of showing, telling, feeling, reviewing, etc., if they still seem to falter, I’d break it up into 2 catagories: ones who struggle but still really want to succeed (to these I’d give as much extra help as possible but make sure we both understood that it would be a long, slow road, and should only be pursued if they really wanted it, otherwise recommend they try something else and see if it was more to their apptitude); and the ones who don’t (if they were being pushed by parents I’d recommend the parent stop pushing or push at something else, if they just wanted to rabble rowse, I’d recommend the door not hitting them on the way out).
This also brings in deliberately problematic students (abusive physically or verbally of others, intentionally distracting or misinformative, interested in showing off rather than learning, or just generally @$$holish behavior). Cancerous and good to expunge right away if you see no hope of rehabilitation (and even if you do, it can poison the environement if not quickly dealt with).
I don’t currently teach, so I may be a little rusty on this stuff though.
It seems as though some teachers (not all!) of the martial arts have been too swayed by the ancient Philosophy of Cha Ch’ing to have the courage/respect for their art to make these kinds of judgement calls.
when i say man, i mean you and other bozzos in this form. This form is use to share ideas and knowledge in a world wide format. Some people here, like you, are so busy trying to prove that you are Superior, all you do is making stupid comments that make yourself look Juvenile.
What Rene said is true. However what I find to be a problem with these students, is the lack of the empty cup. Often times the students these days do not enter blindly which is a great thing, however can present a barrier to learning.
But when they enter the kwoon, many students start with their own agenda in mind, which makes it difficult for the Sifu to help the student help themselves. Just the other side of the coin.
When I first join my kuen, I just want to supplement my TKD training. I was so stubborn, and rigid. My sihings kept hitting me with like tan sau, bong sau, lap sau, kwan sau, jit sau, gan da, fuk sau, wu sau, biu sau.
Thanks for understanding and suporting my point of view. To further my point, sometimes you have to disrupt that thought process as per Anthony Robbins style. That is why some Sifus seem harsh, but in reality they are your best friends. This was the method of Whippinghand as mentioned in other thread.
First, some have recommended booting students who don’t fit in. I’m not sure I agree. We have a retarded guy who certainly doesn’t learn anything, but has a blast. We also have a couple of d0rks that think that chisao is akin to a WWF free-for-all. Then there are the guys who have no interest whatsoever in mastery of the system, but just wanna hang with their buds and do something kinda cool that may have fringe benefits. Of course, all of these guys cause some problems for those of us actually striving for some degree of mastery, but they also provide us with a lot of different opportunities to study our kungfu. I don’t think I’d wanna lose that just b/c my sifu thought they were getting in the way of those few guys who were goin’ the extra mile.
Understand, I’m not waving the flag of tolerance here. I’m the most close minded, intolerant a$$hole I know. I just want as many different people to play hands with as possible. If somebody really steps outta line, its not unheard of for sifu or one of us to hand out a smackdown but nobody gets the boot. (That doesn’t mean that no one leaves, tho )
Second, what is up with you, Lotus Kick? Things are moving along swimmingly in their online-forum-d!cked-up way and you keep freakin out like your apartment building just got burned down by Santa’s helpers. I have yet to see a personal attack directed toward you (I may have missed them ) yet you respond to the slightest disagreement with a sh!tstorm. Do you need a hug?
Just relax man and recognize the online media for the enjoyable but imperfect medium that it is.
Hmmm, it seems like that may have been a personal attack…
I also work with a handicapped guy and would never advocate his removal. I myself am not a “natural” to Yung Chun or the world’s most gifted athlete. I only meant to say that those not open to learning what the Sifu has to offer shouldn’t be encouraged to continue study.
An open mind can make the weakest strong, and vice versa.
Why would the handicapped guy be any different than my WWF guy?
Presupposing that the handicapped guy ISN’T capable of hanging with the rest of the class, he would be an impediment to everyone else’s training, right?
well, for starters he wants to learn. it takes him longer to get it but I have found that if people show him some patience he gets it eventually. I’d say that is a big difference from the WWF guys you described.
Agreed. A tough world for students these days. They have to be skeptical enough not to get taken (“Yes, I’ll teach you super secret primordeal wing chun straight from Huang Ti…”) and yet open enough to learn.
You have some teachers who trick students to see if their analytical about what they learn, others who obfuscate to force them to think, others who spoon-feed to cram in every detail, and the methods go on and on.
Luckily, WCK seems to advocate the center, and this path can help students and teachers both, I think!
) yet you respond to the slightest disagreement with a sh!tstorm. Do you need a hug?
