It says the level of experience among the participants is not high, nor is the development of attributes there yet. If nothing else it was full contact sparring for these guys. That is a good thing right?
So consider it an open sparring event. Isn’t that what most of these things are anyway? So it was the finals in sparring and they got a trophy/medal for showing up, gloving up and doin it. After all, they were there, we were not.
That was sparring against a resisting opponent from outside your school–that is a good thing right?
It would be a bad thing IF better training did not occur and improvement on the things Ernie mentioned in his post. As mentioned one of the WC guy’s opponents was from a school that also taught Muay Thai. Perhaps he was just taking the TKD classes eh?
Originally posted by Knifefighter But these guys are the champions winning in the finals of these events. Assuming you think thety were low caliber fighters, if they are the champions, you’ve got to ask what is says about, not only them, but all the other kung fu free fight competitors.
Originally posted by AmanuJRY Were elbows allowed? What kinds of limitations were there? …
Grasping at straws.
I probably would agree with Victor’s list of prerequisites (a review would be required to be sure), but, IMO, it will vary from one person to the next.
No one is trying to offer a cookie cutter answer. Of course it varies from person to person. That’s why a sifu or coach must use their discretion here. Let’s not try to be master’s of the obvious…
Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun But here’s how I see it…If these guys (and their instructors) are content with this kind of performance - and go home thinking that they really are “champions” - then they’re in for a rude awakening at some point in the not-too-distant future.
I absolutely agree.
To the rest of your arguement, I would have to say, yes, there’s a lot we don’t know. However based on what we saw, and that’s all we have been asked to judge, then little skill is being shown. The coach has much more insight into the potential of these figthers. I’m sure it is very good. I believe everyone has great potential if it is properly developed.
The majority of people here think that these guys didn’t display much in the way of skill. Phil thinks they fought like “girls”. Mortal saw no WC displayed. Matrix saw very little skill. Planetwc said there was “more poor boxing than WC”. Ernie thought they were “very poor”. UWC “didn’t see ANY wing chun at all” and thought “neither fighter was very good”. Pretty much everybody assumed these guys were not very experienced.
I have a different take on the situation. I think these clips, like the other “kong sao” clips, highlight the glaring weaknesses of WC punching techniques. I believe that the reason you haven’t seen much WC skill in ANY videos is because the majority of WC techniques that everyone spends so much time on and expects to see in a full contact fight just don’t work against an opponent who is going off on you at 100%. About the only two hand “techniques” you will see from a WC guy in this type of situation are an occasional pak sao from medium outside range and sometimes a series of chain puches.
Theoretically, trapping and straight line theory should work very well, especially in the closer ranges. Unfortunately, they just don’t seem to hold up very well when under pressure from an opponent who is free to move, not playing your game, and hitting you back as hard as he can.
What does work are boxing style punches. Boxers know that, on the outside range, you need a good rear cross with lots of body rotation to do significant damage to your opponent. They also know that on the inside close range, you need arc-type punches to develop enough power to do any damage to your opponent. Any newbie discovers this instinctively the first time he has to fight and tries to do real damage to his opponent. This is why you almost always see looping type strikes from the closer ranges from neophyte boxers (who haven’t yet learned to throw good hooks and uppercuts) and WC people (as well as karate and many other kung fu practioners) who have spent most of their training learning only straight punches.
“I believe that the reason you haven’t seen much WC skill in ANY videos is because the majority of WC techniques that everyone spends so much time on and expects to see in a full contact fight just don’t work against an opponent who is going off on you at 100%.” (KF)
If that’s what you believe - then stay tuned. There’s a lot more to some Wing Chun styles than just an occasional pak sao and chain punches.
…
“Theoretically, trapping and straight line theory should work very well, especially in the closer ranges. Unfortunately, they just don’t seem to hold up very well when under pressure from an opponent who is free to move, not playing your game, and hitting you back as hard as he can.” (KF)
Originally posted by Knifefighter Pretty much everybody assumed these guys were not very experienced.
It’s not an assumption. The title page clearly says “New Kung Fu Player Competetion”.
In these videos, you see “glaring weaknesses of WC punching techniques.” I see people who are ill prepared to spar. In other words, you are blaming the style and its philosophy. While I am saying that the proper progression of training has not been adhered to, so everything collapses under pressure.
Originally posted by Matrix While I am saying that the proper progression of training has not been adhered to, so everything collapses under pressure.
Well, I’m always open to changing my mind. The minute someone can show WC being used successfully and skillfully in this type of environment, I will do that. Maybe Victor’s videos will show this. Hovever, until presented with contrary evidence, my opinion will be based on what I have seen and experienced so far.
Originally posted by Knifefighter Hovever, until presented with contrary evidence, my opinion will be based on what I have seen and experienced so far.
Fair enough. However, personally I feel no need to convince anyone of anything. I come here just to discuss ideas and concepts. I’m not looking for converts to my way of thinking.
Knifefighter would you consider the views of Jeff Neal,the head of the Carlson Gracie team or Carlsons opinion on the subject of any value or worth? They are currently training their vale tudo fighters with wing chun for the stand up skills.
Originally posted by hunt1 Knifefighter would you consider the views of Jeff Neal,the head of the Carlson Gracie team or Carlsons opinion on the subject of any value or worth? They are currently training their vale tudo fighters with wing chun for the stand up skills.
I wasn’t aware that Carlson’s team was using WC. How long have they been doing that?
In answer to your question, I’m not interested in their “views”, but what they can use. If Carlson’s team is using WC for thier standup training, then their MMA events will show whether or not these WC techniques can or cannot be used successfully. As the saying goes “the proof will be in the pudding”. Until then, I remain skeptical.
My prediction is that the only WC technques that Carlson’s team will possibly be able to use successfully will be an outside pak sao followed by a series of chain punches, all of which will be heavily supplemented by boxing and Muay Thai.
Originally posted by Knifefighter
[B]I wasn’t aware that Carlson’s team was using WC. How long have they been doing that?
In answer to your question, I’m not interested in their “views”, but what they can use. If Carlson’s team is using WC for thier standup training, then their MMA events will show whether or not these WC techniques can or cannot be used successfully. As the saying goes “the proof will be in the pudding”. Until then, I remain skeptical.
My prediction is that the only WC technques that Carlson’s team will possibly be able to use successfully will be an outside pak sao followed by a series of chain punches, all of which will be heavily supplemented by boxing and Muay Thai. [/B]
It will be nice to see you raise your (full) cup and toast them when they do win. Then you can take a sip to help wash down your large slice of humble pie
Knifefighter, it seems that you have a belief that wing chun doesnt have much to offer real fighting yet you havent really felt good wing chun yourself. Your judgements appear to be made based on vids etc. May I suggest that you visit some wing chun schools and see if anyone is willing to trade leather with you in some friendly sparring. I am sure that in Cali there must be some wing chun peeps that would enjoy spending time with you.
If you ever have reason to travel to Florida I would be more than happy to glove up and have a go. I am sure I could find a few more that would be interested in playing. Who knows maybe I cant fight a lick and have been deluding myself.
It was suggested last year that he visit Dhira/AndrewS/Ernie in S. Cali to feel some “good WC”. I wonder if he has gone to visit these hardcore guys with groundfighting skills? If not, why not?
Originally posted by Shadowboxer It was suggested last year that he visit Dhira/AndrewS/Ernie in S. Cali to feel some “good WC”. I wonder if he has gone to visit these hardcore guys with groundfighting skills? If not, why not?
i have had some emails with Dale and to be honest , the guy is really cool , if we ever had the chance to hang out i doubt it would get to a ‘‘hardcore’’ level
a WC vs BJJ thing , i think that is stupid since styles don’t fight people do .
the people that have those type of label hang ups , normally are the arm chair types that wouldn’t get in front of anyone to save thier lives
you see there is really nothing to prove , if you have something that works and makes sense to you and your lifestyle
then it’s all good
as for Dhira and Andrew , they both have ground game as well
so again it’s back to the individual
i think it’s very healthy for people to point fingers at our weaknesses lets you see what other people on the outside pick up on
if your training methods cover what is being pointed out then no harm no foul
I hear ya’ Ernie. I’m just wondering why he doesn’t take the opportunity (or has he?) to experience some “good WC” from some guys who have ground skills as well?
I’m not into labels either–it IS all good. We’ve been working groundfighting the past several weeks.
Originally posted by Shadowboxer
[B]I hear ya’ Ernie. I’m just wondering why he doesn’t take the opportunity (or has he?) to experience some “good WC” from some guys who have ground skills as well?
I’m not into labels either–it IS all good. We’ve been working groundfighting the past several weeks.
I need to pressure test some more this year. [/B]
bro,
people just find the path that best suits them based on what they have had exposure to .
maybe next week i will stumble onto a new super art called flying chicken toe thumbjitsu and it will blow all this silly wing chun stuff out of the water
maybe not who knows ?
keep me posted on what you discover as you pressure test , that is were the real gems come from
Originally posted by hunt1 Knifefighter would you consider the views of Jeff Neal,the head of the Carlson Gracie team or Carlsons opinion on the subject of any value or worth? They are currently training their vale tudo fighters with wing chun for the stand up skills.
Last year Carlson Gracie and Sam gave a seminar together in the UK.
I’d be very interested to see the fighters that are being trained in wing chun, as well as what the training consisted of - IMO good wing chun takes quite some time to develop, and requires a certain amount of cup emptying and investing in loss. OTOH, things like Nick Smarts Autodefence show that show that systems based on taking basic elements of wing chun can produce effective fighters fairly quickly.
Hunt1 - will their training be a full ‘traditional’ syllabus or something more reduced?
Ernie wrote:
>>“maybe next week i will stumble onto a new super art called flying chicken toe thumbjitsu and it will blow all this silly wing chun stuff out of the water”<<
I’ve been saying that for years. There could some rare, secret family style of kung fu that will blow WC out ot the water. When/if that happens let’s see how many people ‘jump ship’
Phil
Originally posted by Ernie maybe next week i will stumble onto a new super art called flying chicken toe thumbjitsu and it will blow all this silly wing chun stuff out of the water
Just think of all the great marketing opportunities you’ll have with an ‘art’ like that.
