Typical WC?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
21

I might be wrong but the last time I was at my teachers flat he had a copy of a genalogy book on his desk. His name was in it.

However, i have heard him complain about paying a large some of money to VTAA and hearing nothing further. I think when he spoke to Au Yeung in Nov that it was a case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing i.e. disroganisation rather than anything more sinister. Still if the VTAA is all we have in terms of an IP man governing body it needs to pull its socks up!
Still lots of politics between the old guys behind the scenes. I think Leung Sheung and WSL were to some extent a uinifying force while they were alive. Still factionalisation and internicine feuding seems to be a fact of human life and not confined to wing chun. I am learning that it is prevalent in BJJ too.

22

Re: Well…

Originally posted by planetwc

What was your problem with this guy Dale?
I’d like to hear the WC view of these fighters first. I’ll share my critiques when I have a bit more time. Lately, I’ve already been spending too much time on those stupid video clips.

23

Nick- thanks for additional info on the genealogy affair.

Re-politics-ubiquitous- doesnt have to be sinister. For the first genealogy book- Ho Kam Ming didnt send in any materials-
so for the appearnce of completeness- there is a cut and paste job for his picture.

And of course as is obvious- the producer’s line had lots and lots of students listed.

24

Re: Well…

Originally posted by planetwc
And in the end he WON! So kudos to him. Good job. That was him against a resisting opponent.
He won? So what? This is supposed to be some sort of championship. If that’s considered good martial arts, regardless of style, then we are all doomed…

I don’t think there is anything worthy of praise in either of those clips. I think the only one who wins here is Dale. :o

25

As someone who has seen live lots of amatuer Muay Thai and kickboxing, I can safely say that it’s typical of any novice bout period.

You can’t expect these guys to perform as well as pros or amateurs with lots of experience. Which is why when they are put against pros like Thais, they get annihilated.

The guys in the clips will learn and improve hopefully.

26

Exactly

Yep. The guys in the clips are not pros. It may even be the first event they’ve sanda fought in. I certainly don’t have expectations of them being Lumpini stadium or K1 caliber fighters.

Why is everyone so hard @ss on guys that are just starting out at this?
They have to start somewhere. Let them get more training and more ring/event experience under their belt. I give them kudos for stepping up.

Time and experience will give them more to show.

Originally posted by Edmund
[B]As someone who has seen live lots of amatuer Muay Thai and kickboxing, I can safely say that it’s typical of any novice bout period.

You can’t expect these guys to perform as well as pros or amateurs with lots of experience. Which is why when they are put against pros like Thais, they get annihilated.

The guys in the clips will learn and improve hopefully. [/B]

27

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
There are inherent weakness in SOME systems of Wing Chun…quite possibly.

But within other WC systems it’s a different story.

And the INDIVIDUAL use of these systems.

All of this has to be taken into account.

“OK, so how about critiqueing the weaknesses shown in those clips as compared to how a “stronger” system might do it. Maybe you can even demonstrate these things in your upcoming video clips?” (Knifefighter)

SAW MOST OF THE FIGHT…between the guy with black top and red trunks vs. the guy in red top and blue trunks who was fighting southpaw (the 70kg fight)…about half-way through round two the video cut out on me (and it took forever to download it in the first place).

The guy in black threw some charge-straight-ahead chain punches a few times - usually preceded by a low rear front kick as a set up…other than that…didn’t see ANY wing chun at all…

Some of the upper body and double-leg takedowns by the guy with the red top were okay - but his single leg takedowns were poor…and the black top guy’s takedowns were horrendous - absolutely terrible!..and the punching usually degenerated into either some bad boxing or elbows-too-flared-out bad wing chun punching…

in other words - while I give them credit for trying…neither fighter was very good.

NOW AS FOR THE WING CHUN I DID SEE…especially in the first round - when the guy in the black top threw a low rear front kick as a setup for the straight blast chain (roll) punches…

This is NOT - I repeat…NOT…good wing chun.

Using such a kick to set up a punching attack is okay…

but the charge-straight-ahead-while-straight-blast-chain-punching-down-your-centerline Wing Chun DOES NOT WORK against a good fighter. This type of Wing Chun is the CLASSICAL MESS.

It’s too easy for a good fighter to duck underneath and take you down with a double-leg…or to hook punch you to the head…or lead leg front kick you in the groin…or to SIDESTEP the bull rush and take you out with something from the flank.

In TWC (Traditional Wing Chun) we ONLY use the straight blast AFTER we’ve secured a line (perhaps set up by a trap or a pinning hand) that leads to making a solid hit… that sets the man up because he’s either stunned, or off balance…OR…we’ve secured a position wherein at least one of his hands is out-of-play. (Again - a trap or pin on one of his arms/elbows).

It all requires a lot more footwork than what’s on the video…and a lot more Wing Chun hand (striking,trapping,blocking,deflecting, unbalancing) technique and a lot more kicking technique than what we saw. (And I haven’t even mentioned elbow or knee strikes - since I suspect they weren’t allowed under the rules of engagement).

28

The first round, the guy in red is from Dundas MA Assoc where they teach Boxing, TKD, Thai and SanSa.

In the second round the other fellow is a CLF guy.

29

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
It all requires a lot more footwork than what’s on the video…and a lot more Wing Chun hand (striking,trapping,blocking,deflecting, unbalancing) technique and a lot more kicking technique than what we saw. (And I haven’t even mentioned elbow or knee strikes - since I suspect they weren’t allowed under the rules of engagement).

Agreed - although I don’t know if more kicking is required, but that’s a personal judgement call.

That’s why I’ve been saying, people at this skill level, or lack thereof, should not be sparring. They haven’t got the basics and yet their in some sort of “championship”. It’s like building a house on sand…

30

And yet..

When should they get their feet wet?

This is probably what the 1950 era teenagers looked like on the rooftops guys. Trying out what they had against guys in other arts with similar level of experience. Charging in straight line and blasting the other guy. What do you think Wiliam Cheung or Wong Shun Leung or Bruce Lee looked like in their FIRST rooftop fight? Like a Jet Li movie? Outtakes from a young tyson fight? The best of Pride 2004? I doubt it.

It is the next progression beyond chi sao and sparring in-house. Going against someone you don’t know who studies something else. Someone who is there to pound you and “win”.

The expectation is not to judge them at a pro level or even experienced amatuer (ie semi-pro). This is no different than any local tourney in your area. This is not golden gloves, or regional muay thai.

And not every student is going to be “up for” or interested in a sparring tournament. The students in question now know what that feels like and they have video of themselves to analyse with their teacher. Certainly there are a lot of things they can work on and ADD to their training and development. That’s the whole point…it is an iterative process.

They need to balance feeling gloving up vs building bad habits. Use the experience to harshly judge what they do have, what they don’ have and what just “came out” vs what they train.

31

it’s not that i would try and see them through a pro filter
i could not be seen through that filter either

it’s just bad prep and bad coaching

i would not send some one into a fight with out them having put in the time sparring and developing basic footwork and control distance , timing , etc..

these guys did what i see soooooo many WC people do and other non sparring types

the lack the skill to relate to what is in front of them !

they just do preconditioned techniques and don’t even bother to work off the opponents response

it’s like 2 people speaking different languages and talking at the same time un able to listen to what the other person is telling them

just a mess

were talking about a sporting event not a street fight , you have time to prep , you have rounds to work off , this like any sporting event a game not a street fight so in this game you ‘‘play’’ and you work the skills with in the confines of the game

they guys lacked very basic skills that should have been handled back in the gym

bad coaching in my eyes or lack of knowing how to prep

32

Ernie just said it all.

The bottom line is they should have been better prepared for that fight. Even if it was their first.

Your skills should be up to par.

33

Things we don’t know from the videos;

Approximate skill level of the participants (how long have they trained).

Rules of the match

Details of each participants WC instruction (lineage, how/what they were taught).

Without knowing these (and probably more) things about them it’s impossible to judge how ‘well’ they are performing (as it pertains to their WC). Now, we can judge by our experience and knowledge of WC and fighting, but, unless we are participating in similar events it’s rather pompus for us to be too critical about their performance.

The idea that there should be a length of time or a certain skill level achieved before sparring/fighting is (partially) bogus, IMO. One should not be thrown into the ring and pressured beyond their skill level (at least not too far beyond), however, if their goal is to learn to fight (not just preserve an art) then it is a nessisary aspect of training and should begin as early as possible (I would use the person’s own motivation as an indication of reddiness for this kind of training).

34

Bill:

David and Justin are right…These guys are ready to spar.

But the problem is - that they’re probably not being coached correctly…as Ernie said.

Their in-house sparring sessions should be constantly interrupted (when mistakes are made)…so that they can “drill” certain moves and responses the right way - and then go back to the sparring. (and of course…the interruptions should include learning/drilling new things as well).

And those interruptions have to be very frequent - since both of these guys still need a lot of work.

But that’s probably what they’re not getting - hence the poor showing.

All that said, I still agree with David…they’re ready to spar…and going into an occasional tournament is (was) doing them some good - because it’s valuable experience. Like the man said…when William, Wong, or Bruce first started fighting on the rooftops - they probably didn’t look like champs yet either.

You’ve got to start somewhere.

35

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
David and Justin are right…These guys are ready to spar.
I disagree. They’re trying to sprint, and they can barely crawl. Maybe it’s “bad prep” or “bad coaching”, call it what you will. They are not ready for this level of sparring, that is my opinion, which I can see is not widely held. So be it. I believe that the video proves my point.

Justin is right in that there is a lot we do not know about the match. However, what we do know is that they are highly unskilled and not in any way prepared for serious sparring. And do you really think that not knowing the rules has any bearing whatsoever on this. Please, give me a break…

36

Originally posted by Matrix
However, what we do know is that they are highly unskilled and not in any way prepared for serious sparring. And do you really think that not knowing the rules has any bearing whatsoever on this. Please, give me a break…

Our not knowing the ‘rules’ or conditions of the matches has absolutly NO BEARING whatsoever on the preparedness or skill of the participants, and I wasn’t suggesting that it did.
It does however have a bearing on how we PERCIEVE their skill.

To use the walking/running analogy, if a person is walking and doing it well does that mean that they will ‘look good’ running or have ‘good form’ while sprinting? Or does that come with experience at running? I have seen a toddler, barely able to walk, attempt to run. Should I discourage the child from running until he/she is ready? And finally the big question, when do we know???

37

Re: Exactly

Originally posted by planetwc
[B]Yep. The guys in the clips are not pros. It may even be the first event they’ve sanda fought in. I certainly don’t have expectations of them being Lumpini stadium or K1 caliber fighters.

Why is everyone so hard @ss on guys that are just starting out at this? [/B]
But these guys are the champions winning in the finals of these events. Assuming you think thety were low caliber fighters, if they are the champions, you’ve got to ask what is says about, not only them, but all the other kung fu free fight competitors.

38

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
It does however have a bearing on how we PERCIEVE their skill.
Sorry, I don’t follow. Are you saying the ability to perceive skill is limited by these unknown rules? I think that arguement is a red herring, the skill or lack thereof is plain to see. If you would prefer to rationalize things with these obtuse points, feel free.

And finally the big question, when do we know???
Ah yes, the “big question”. I think Victor gave a reasonably good list of attributes that are required for sparring. Until there is some demonstration of the ability to perform these basic skills, then sparring is counter-productive, IMO. This is my opinion, not a fact. I think sparring is often introduced too soon into the progression, because people want to feel like they’re fighting. In fact they’re learning how to be sloppy. My 2 cents.

39

Originally posted by Matrix
Sorry, I don’t follow. Are you saying the ability to perceive skill is limited by these unknown rules? I think that arguement is a red herring, the skill or lack thereof is plain to see. If you would prefer to rationalize things with these obtuse points, feel free.

Were elbows allowed? What kinds of limitations were there? This can affect how a person spars. Therefore, what we see them doing may not be their best . Do you assume that this is the best example of their skill? I’ll agree that it didn’t look much like WC (and I’m being nice) and it didn’t look like top notch fighting (I kinda liked Phil’s description) but have you seen them do chi sau? Or forms?

Ah yes, the “big question”. I think Victor gave a reasonably good list of attributes that are required for sparring. Until there is some demonstration of the ability to perform these basic skills, then sparring is counter-productive, IMO. This is my opinion, not a fact. I think sparring is often introduced too soon into the progression, because people want to feel like they’re fighting.

I probably would agree with Victor’s list of prerequisites (a review would be required to be sure), but, IMO, it will vary from one person to the next. Since we don’t all learn at the same rate or in the same way (i.e. some people are more tactile, some are more cognative, etc.) then some may be ready for it and some not, even if they have similar skill levels in chi sau. I’d be willing to bet that for every student who feels ‘pushed’ into sparring there is one who feels held back from it, this is my opinion not a fact.:wink:

In fact they’re learning how to be sloppy. My 2 cents.

Not if they have good coaching (as has been stated).

40

“Ah yes, the “big question”. I think Victor gave a reasonably good list of attributes that are required for sparring. Until there is some demonstration of the ability to perform these basic skills, then sparring is counter-productive, IMO. This is my opinion, not a fact. I think sparring is often introduced too soon into the progression, because people want to feel like they’re fighting. In fact they’re learning how to be sloppy. My 2 cents.” (Matrix)

Now this is an intelligent argument, Bill. And I have to give you points for it.

But here’s how I see it…If these guys (and their instructors) are content with this kind of performance - and go home thinking that they really are “champions” - then they’re in for a rude awakening at some point in the
not-too-distant future.

But if they go back into the schools they train in and follow some of the steps I outlined - then they definitely have something to build upon.

They have enough skills to be doing SOME sparring - but they need more work on perfecting their technique. (And learning more technique).

You see - what we really don’t know is just what LEVEL OF COMPETITION this event was supposed to be?

Is this particular event supposed to be the “top-of-the-line”…or was it a low-level event within the martial art circles of that particular place?

Was it supposed to be the PRIDE FIGHTING, or the UFC, or the K-1 of the place - or was it more like some local karate-type tournament that every town in North America has at least once a year?

Get my point?

One of the ways that some people within TWC handle this (on the advice of William Cheung a long time ago)…is a 3-to-1 ratio.

He used to say that for every ten minutes you spend sparring you should have spent at least 30 minutes drilling FIRST…one such drill being what he called DIFFERENTIATION.

Your partner will throw either this move or that move at you - and you have to respond with an appropriate counter move…but you don’t know which one of the two is coming - and if you miss one - your partner repeats the move you missed before going on to try and fool you about which one is coming next. Then a third move is added to the list…then a fourth, and so on. Then you begin to attack your partner - and he might respond with one of the four moves (or perhaps something else) at the moment you attack - and you have to adjust your attack so that you nullify his move appropriately, etc.

And little-by-little…as moves are being added - it becomes more spontaneous, and starts to turn into actual light sparring. Then the protective equipment is put on and it becomes heavier sparring.

Various people (from various styles, schools, and lineages) have different names and variations on this theme, I’m sure…but this is the gist of it from the TWC perspective.

My point is: the two guys I saw in the 70kg fight were definitely skilled “enough” to be training and doing some heavier contact sparring the way I’ve described…

but are they doing it?

If they’re not - then it’s the fault of the instuctor and his training methods.

But it’s not their fault - because I think they’re both ready for it.