Traditional Shaolin WINNING NHB????

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Shaolin Kung Fu
21

Why grapplers fair well in NHB…

I don’t watch many of these UFC/NHB things because they are…BOOOORRRING!!! I remember when I first started kung fu I thought, wow, this is great…real fighting!!! I especially rented the ones where it listed a kung fu fighter on the box..After watching a few of them I got really bored. They always end in the same predictable way…the grappler jumps on the guy and just hangs on him until he is tired out. The “kung fu fighter” is ALWAYS a MMA who is trying to use the expert grapplers own moves against him.
The most exciting part of the match is the swimsuit chicks that come out and announce the rounds.

Look… grappling is very effective. It allows you to control your opponent. Most traditional kung fu styles incorporate grappling in the form of Chin Na. Whether you are talking about CLF, Hung Gar or Taiji. But in a real fighting situation you cannot just hang on someone and tire them out, which is what goes on in these matches. This “Gracie” style of fighting is very specialized. They have essentially “cracked the code” on these matches and so these “fights” become meaningless and boring to watch. They are essentially over hyped wrestling matches.

I think that Kung Fu fighters want to compete in a forum where they can showcase all of their skills, kicking, punching and grappling. San Shou is a great example. Some kung fu fighters may think it is beneath them to compete in NHB kind of matches because they see themselves as all around fighters, not wrestlers.

Fu-Pow

“If you are talking about sport that is one thing. But when you are talking about combat-as it is-well then, baby, you’d better train every part of your body” - Bruce Lee

22

To Royal Dragon

I respect your quest for knowledge. Others here like myself have tried to give you some answers.

I think Dark Knight and some others are dead on…I’d like to contribute to what’s been said.

I’m sorry to repost and rehash some older posts but many good points have been brought up.
If you read these two and find nothing usefull towards your quest…Then you are just trolling.

http://forum.kungfuonline.com/1/OpenTopic?q=Y&a=tpc&s=126197291&f=340190991&m=2901922081#5691921281

Member Subitai
From: CA
Registered: 04-07-00
Posts: 168
Here we go again.

What’s up HG brother?
Don’t let it get to you. You already know what works in given situations.
This fact is true: The NHB and MMA guys fighting at the TOP of the contests are the BEST (i.e. masters) at what they do.( Because it is new and ever-improving and evolving) That’s great, it make the world more interesting.
So for sure they are the best at what they do…But no Gung Fu fighter ie. master (considered at the top of his field) has fought. NOT ONE. Perhaps they would loose, im not doubting the possiblity in either direction.
Let’s look at it this way, before NHB came most full contact trained for primarily stand up. Given that situation, if EVERYONE was still required to STAY STANDING up the TOP field would be different. So credit the grapplers strengths.

When a Gracie looses, it doesn’t mean he represents HIS entire style and that BJJ lost. Hes just a fighter that lost,not his style. Same with Kung Fu, Karate, TKD or any style.

Some guys I’d like to have seen fight:
Korean: Hee Li Cho (spelling?) That SOB could fold a HVY bag in half. OH My goodness, one hit!
I don’t think most MMA would try to trade blows with someone like him. They’d diffuse him by taking him down. But just that fact that you have to totally avoid someones area and give it allot of respect says MUCHO.

Chinese: Shi Guo Lin or De Yang or De Ching or guys like that. I’m not saying they’d win automatically. They have just as much chance to be taken out by ground work. But I doubt any modern MMA guy would stand up fight them. HELL no!
Anyone who knows anything about real street fights will tell you that it is rare to have it totally straight up and fair matched in a perfect sureal setting. IT"S not, ONE SUCKER PUNCH AND BAM…I don’t care who you are or what you know.

The Octagon is allot to experience: I know from personal experience. Travel, jet lag, crappy food, accomodations, theft of your training gear mid week. Gambling, prositutes being offered to you. The Mafia(certain country for sure), have to adjust to new altittude (ie oxygen content). All these things happened to me and or team mates. Basically the overall exerpience was not like any REAL street fights that i’ve ever had.
That’s the plain truth, if anyone who’s never actually been in there starts speculating about how real NHB and MMA experiences are, then they are doing just that…speculating.

Je Lei, don’t let it get to you brother. Self control.
“O”

Subitai
Member

From: CA
Registered: 04-07-00
Posts: 168
It has come full circle

Kong,
In the beggining of the modern NHB era everyone believed ground fighting was it and they mostly always went down.
Then when the everyone mixed it up and learned different ranges and skills…they had to respect the other man in front of them.
Result = If you look at alot of the recent NHB matches you see alot more stand up out of respect for eachothers abilities.

SO IT HAS COME FULL CIRCLE. I’ve said it many times, in the street you don’t know what your opponent knows OR WHAT HE IS CARRYING. Out of respect and precaution that’s why fighting has developed the way it has all these years.
(if i have knife, ill gut the meanest 400lb fighter in the world like a fish if he gets too close)
Ask those MMA guys to fight w/ knives and watch how they will look like everyone else out there.
{ Kong } I’m very sorry that CMA did not fullfill you but you cannot say that it is pointless.(Perhaps you don’t mean that tho)
All i’m sayin is, if it saves any Joe Schmo out there then it has worked.
I’ve watched “Knifefighters” posts for some time now and seen his bio. He’s correct and seems to speak from experience. But remember, even he has Played CMA and will tell you that it has it’s place and not totally useless.
I’ve been in real NHB events. I’m far from the best. I may never be the best, nobody is. All I know is the more i train, the more people i get better than.
But fighting NHB in a gym or garage no matter how realistic is still not exactly like being in the Superbowl = I.e. a Pay per view event. There are alot of other factors that come into play. You don’t just show up and fight on the same day.
It is a week long experience or more.
There is training, physicals and blood testing, plane travel (jet lag), strange hotels, shady promoters, prostitution, Drugs, gambling, blackmailing, famous fighters infidelities with chicks while we were on location…the list goes on. All these things were approached and the opportunities presented themselves to me. It’s alot to think about prior to putting yourself on TV and 20,000+ live people who are screaming “Break his Arm” or “Boo” in a collisium.
(Due to the fighters code: I cannot expound on really nitty gritty gossip)

So if you put your thoughts into this mindset at least the UFC type experience. From experience I can honestly say, it is not like any real fight that i’ve been in. All of my real fights have been spontaneous and usually with a clear (or slightly intoxicated, haha) head.
Anybody, who argues or speculates about this entire experience w/o having gone thru the process is…just that speculating.

To conclude, it is as we have always known. Any mans game at any given moment. Fighting is Chaos

Peace,
Onassis Parungao aka “O”

23

Thanx for the link, there were several comments I though interesting. I cut and pasted them here for all to comment on.

That is why many BJJ and mixed martial artist use Pride and the UFC in there debates. It is something that we have ALL SEEN OR HEARD ABOUT. no one can claim that it was Bullshit and didn’t happen, there is proof which can be witnessed by all. And again I reiterate that MMA is the clearest legal medium we have to witness how a styles techniques apply in the real world
So?

RD]
This makes perfect sense to me. II think if the Kung Fu world had SOLID practitioners fighting in these events, we would have a solid foundation in which to compar, discuss and anylize our systems in comparisens to other’s systems.

Many traditionalist recount stories of how grand master X defeated 20 assasins without breaking a sweat. Most of us live vicariously through others to a certain extent, the difference is that the MMA crowd can really view the fights, critique it and see where a fighter went wrong or right, where all we traditionalist have are third hand stories and analysis of Kung Fu movies.

RD]
Another intersting comment. Basically, it speaks to the fact that Kung Fu styleists are depending on legends and stories for legitimasation, where as the MMA crowd is dependintg on factual fights, and real world results.

Read the Pride thread and look for how much analysis is done by the guys who study ground fighting. They’re where the traditionalist should be.

RD}
I have NOT read the Pride thread, but I have read many MMA threads, and they do seem to have an “Anylise the facts” mindset, NOT something I see from us traditionalist all that often. THAT is exactly why I want to see our pro level guys fighting in the MMA’s. So we can discuss and aynalise the true effectiveness of our systems against the worlds best. So far there have been pathetic attempt, by poorly trained “Masters”. When these individuals go up against the best in thier field, in competitions designed SPECIFICALLY to test those that are the BEST in thier fields, well, you can see why no one respects us. The problem I am having, is that this (and similar discussions0 are always steered to the street, where the probability of gong up against some one that’s at the top is slim to none. In order to truly test a style, it’s BEST practitioners must go up against other system’s BEST pratitioners, ovewr and over and over again. Then, the style or styles that come out on top the most will be known as being superior to those around them. AND, the ones that don’t fare well, will be know to be inferior to the rest. Right now, Kung Fu styles are in the latter position.

BJJ can be ineffective if:

  1. Your takedowns are ineffective.
  2. Your conditioning is lacking.
  3. your opponent knows BJJ.
    No argument from me.

RD]
This can be said for ANY system, I am hoping that these three problems have been ramped in the Kung Fu fighters defetes. This at least gives me hope that a fully trained fighter can hold his own against the best.

Kung Fu was made popular by David Carradine and Bruce Lee. BJJ was made popular by many fighters using it and demonstrating it’s effectiveness. Just a thought.

Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

RD]
This is true, and probually the source for the bad “image” Kung Fu has. We need top level professional fighters to get into the NHB MMAs and WIN or at least hold thier own near the top on some sort of regular basis to correct this.

The truth is, modern MMA tournaments have exposed several weaknesses of BJJ - lack of standup and proper takedowns. However it took cross trained athletes years of study and practice to finally find the key. Saying that BJJ is innefective is udderly wrong considering its past dominance and what it took to defeat it.

RD]
Difficult to argue this comment, All I can say, is that Kung Fu has proven the opposite, by being defeted almost as much as BJJ has won. Since so few Kung Fu guys actually fight in these things, if you add up all the fights they have actuallyt bee =ing and get an average wijn vs lost statstic, and did the same for a non traditioanlly trained fighter, you would see overwhelming
losses for the traditional Kung Fu side. Not too insireing if you ask me.

Royal Dragon

24

Goods points but…

You’re not listening to what i’m saying.

Stop thinking in a confined controlled, PREDETERMINED arena. From experience, it is not the same.

  1. You said, “Groundfighting is wear traditionalists should be”. Very true they shouldn’t ignore it.

However, if you have ever fought a complete stranger. You’d know that caution and distancing is the 1st immediate reaction. It is during this time that all styles can be considered EQUAL to some degree and more relys on the individual and experience. Ground play only comes into play after some initial forays into testing eachother. That is what really happens when you don’t know anything about the other person.

  1. Then I went further to name a few others (non grapplers ) I like to see fight.

Given the sheer predispositon of set up fights the out come is slightly off than realistic. I’d put up 10k on any MMA agreeing to fight someone like Shi Guo Lin (Monk) in just stand up. It won’t happen. YES of course, he could be beaten on the ground. The issue is the whole set up of the fight and a predetermination of factors like, not to the death, in a ring and with prior knowledge of what a person is all about and what they can do. (ie prestudying videotaped fights)

Now the same fight, given the REAL circumstances as to what really happens in a fight. Say for example in a back parking lot after tossing a few back. NOBODY (smart anyway) just immediately goes for the takedown, they have to measure out the other opponent briefly and contemplate quickly on how to beat the other guy. It is this short time that we are all equil to some point. Given street awarness and a few other factors.

I’d continue but you can go on during your research by listening to message boards all day. Or you can listen to your own instincts and perhaps a few people who have done both sides of the coin.

Fee education is over.

“Brilliant general”! “When the dirty bastard finds out, he’ll return with his men–then we kill the all of them…” www.kwoon.tv

25

Although I understand your perspective, and agree with you from that perspective, I have to say, that you can’t bring the street into this, because with a street fight you can’t go to your local blockbuster and rent the fight to see what really happened. It’s all hearsay, and the farhter down the road you go, the mpre exaggerated it gets. That’s what the MMA’s are for, so we can LOOK back to what really hapened, compare techniques and stratigeys to see what worked and what didn’t. In THAT arena, today’s modern proving ground, Kung Fu does NOT do well, and I want to now why. If the training systems are no good, then why am I bothering to learn this stuff? However, if there is something else going on, under the surface, then I want to know what it is, so when I build MY club I don’t fall into the trap.

26

You keep saying that yopu cannot bring the street into it. If you do not want to train for the street then you are def in the wrong art. You need to move to the art that trains for the sport you want. Even the Gracies have said they would not take it to the ground in a street fight.

If you want to know if a style will work in the street based on how effective it is in the ring then add all kickboxing styles and practitioners, all Judo players, all full contact fighters. they may not have won at UFC but they can dominate in thier fields. (Pat Smith makes over $200,000.00 per year fighting) Then you might as well add in the different styles of Kung Fu that are full contact or wrestling styles.

NHB fans only see Wushu as Kung fu. Its the most common to see because its flashy and the only style thrown on TV on a constant basis. They dont realize that the word Kung Fu is broad and takes in many styles.

NHB is not NHB. It is not the closest we can come to street fighting, also it does not take into account different fighting abilities. Mo Smith showed up at UFC with no ground fighting skills but beat Mark Coleman. Afterwards he trained for grappling with Frank Shamrock. If grappling was the better style what does the 145 pound 27 year old guy do who does not have the strength to make grappling work, or the 105 pound female do?

Im not sure what your point is. Is Most Kung Fu styles best for NHB events? NO.

You say we cant compare it to street fighting, well I do not train for MMA fights, I train for self defense and for myself. I have been in street fights and won, therefore the style I do is effective.

You need to clarify your point. Are you trying to say that Kung Fu styles are ineffective? Based on what if you dont want to look at street fighting.

27

Kungfu vs. grappling

I have to side with grapplers on the subject to some degree. Grappling arts for the most train harder than most KF schools. Most KF school in the U.S. have been water down. Much of the condition has been abandoned. Grappling in and of itself is a chore and conditions you. As well most people who grapple know they will have to condition hard to succeed in it. KF schools in the U.S. alot of times draws in people who are unwilling to do the work that it takes to become
a formidable fighter, they all concentrate more on forms and neglect conditioning. I see this at my school. I however am not one of those individuals. I more formwork I do, does increase my fighting ability a great amount, but conditioning as a KF practioners has always been part of the equation. My instructor is an excellent example. I often joke about him being built like a Ninja turtle but in truth,aside from not haveing a shell, he is. He is about 6ft and probably weighs in the neighborhood of 200-215 lbs and solid. It doesn’t help to know a lot of forms and lack the conditioning to make it work.

28

You keep saying that you cannot bring the street into it.

Repy]
The reason you can’t bring the street into the discussion, is because there is NO WAY to verify the results. No record, no score, no documentation or video. just a bunch of braggarts claiming victory and embeleshing the story to “look” tough.

If you do not want to train for the street then you are def in the wrong art. You need to move to the art that trains for the sport you want. Even the Gracies have said they would not take it to the ground in a street fight.

reply]
I want to train for reality, and the war stories of street figters ARE NOT REALITY. by the time a street story gets to you, BOTH sides claim to have won!! I want a verifiable testing ground, with documented results. The modern NHB MMA contests are as close as we can saftly and legaly get.

If you want to know if a style will work in the street based on how effective it is in the ring then add all kickboxing styles and practitioners, all Judo players, all full contact fighters. they may not have won at UFC but they can dominate in thier fields. (Pat Smith makes over $200,000.00 per year fighting) Then you might as well add in the different styles of Kung Fu that are full contact or wrestling styles.

Rply]
YES, thats what i want to see, a competition where ALL styles are represented!! Now, I see the Chinese arts UNDER represented, and those that are there, get pounded. Why is that?

NHB fans only see Wushu as Kung fu. Its the most common to see because its flashy and the only style thrown on TV on a constant basis. They dont realize that the word Kung Fu is broad and takes in many styles.

Reply]
why is that? Is it because we are sending so called masters to thier fights and gettig STOMPED badly? Or is it because we have sent the best we’ve got and got stomped badly?

NHB is not NHB. It is not the closest we can come to street fighting, also it does not take into account different fighting abilities.

Reply]
What? Its NOT the best and closest thing we have to a real fight? Then what is? Boxing? Football? What?

Mo Smith showed up at UFC with no ground fighting skills but beat Mark Coleman. Afterwards he trained for grappling with Frank Shamrock. If grappling was the better style what does the 145 pound 27 year old guy do who does not have the strength to make grappling work, or the 105 pound female do?

reply]
Do more strength training and adjust thier tactics, and probually loose anyway. hopefully, they will get attacked by an untrained thug and be able to out skill them, but if they go up against a pro, their dead with little hope.

Im not sure what your point is. Is Most Kung Fu styles best for NHB events? NO.

Reply]
WHY NOT!! Werehnt they DEVELOPED in NHB situations? All the elements for succsess are there right? If they can’t even survive a mock play (sport) NHB match, HOW IN THE HELL ARE THEY GOING TO WORK IN THE REAL WORLD?

You say we cant compare it to street fighting, well I do not train for MMA fights, I train for self defense and for myself. I have been in street fights and won, therefore the style I do is effective.

Reply]
What makes you belive you were anything more than lucky? I’ve won street fight too, BEFORE MY KUNG FU TRAINING!!! Face it, if your going on some victory with an untrained or poorly traing guy you just found wandering around out there, HOW do you really know your stufff works?
Answer: YOU DON’T. Unless you have tested it against known talent, and the ring is the only place you can do that.

You need to clarify your point. Are you trying to say that Kung Fu styles are ineffective? Based on what if you dont want to look at street fighting.

reply]
I’m saying Kung Fu has a rep for being useless, and the MMa gys have TONES of evidence to support thier position. Those arguing “our” side have to skirt the issue by bringing un provable “street” accounts and glorious over puffed ancient legend into the picture in hopes of distracting the issue and facts. I want to cut through all that BS, and find out WHY WE DON’T do good in these events. ESPECIALLY since all the elements for sucsess are intertwined in most, if not all Chinese arts. Is it the teaching methods? is it the fighting tactics, is there just little interst? is there some sort of political agenda, or do we just SUCK that badly?

Can any one give me an answer, or site a NUMBER of instances where KUNG FU practitoners HAVE done good in MMA full contact NHB fights? Am I Missing something?

Royal Dragon

29

"I’m saying Kung Fu has a rep for being useless, and the MMa gys have TONES of evidence to support thier position. Those arguing “our” side have to skirt the issue by bringing un provable “street” accounts and glorious over puffed ancient legend into the picture in hopes of distracting the issue and facts. I want to cut through all that BS, and find out WHY WE DON’T do good in these events. ESPECIALLY since all the elements for sucsess are intertwined in most, if not all Chinese arts. Is it the teaching methods? is it the fighting tactics, is there just little interst? is there some sort of political agenda, or do we just SUCK that badly?

Can any one give me an answer, or site a NUMBER of instances where KUNG FU practitoners HAVE done good in MMA full contact NHB fights? Am I Missing something?"

Yeah you are missing all the answers to the questions we are giving you. They are all ligit answers and you are calling them bs or not acknowledgeing them. I can’t believe this is the same Royal Dragon from a couple of months ago what happened to you personally to shake your faith in kungfu’s ability? As an instructor you should only teach what you know absolutly for sure works if you don’t trust your kungfu anymore you shouldn’t be teaching it. Now if you go back and actually read the responses to the question instead of repeating the same question over and over agian you will see excellent points.
(Damn, I just became the victum of a Troll)

Witness the Dynasty!!!
New Site! www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net

30

You know what makes this thread seem even MORE trollish? An ad in the last KFQ:
“How would a skilled Shaolin Monk do in a No-Holds-Barred match?
Join the conversation
Click FORUMS at
www.KUNGFUmagazine.com”

:o

-Radhnoti

31

Devil’s advocate

Ok, after re reading things, I have to admit there are some good replys. BUT, I also see alot of issue skirting. My original post is in the context of the NHB MMA comps and I questioned WHY we do so poorly in them. That HAS been the basis of my pursiue in this post from the beginng. Maybe I have not made myself clear? I don’t feel some of my questions have been adiquitely answered. For example, the repeated comparisen to the street, it does NOT hold or answer WHY we are NOT doing better in the MMA’s.

I have pointed out, that the street is not valid because it cannot be verified, yet, I feel like I’m being trollified becaue I refuse to acknowledge it for that reason. The MMA’s however CAN be verified simply by renting the fight and seeing what happened.

Also, the MMA’s are open to all styles, that’s what they were designed for, especially the original UFC fights.
Now, I understand the fact that ground fighting has it’s dangers in the street that are not in existance in the ring, but how does that explain Muy Tai guys beating us? Where are the Kung Fu guys fighting and winning against people with Muy Tai skill in the MMA’s?

Why don’t we see top level Kung Fu (I belive I specified Shaolin) guys in the MMA’s and doing well? No one here has directly answered the first simple question. We hold these systems in such high regaurd, yet in the closest real world testing ground we have, they either don’t show, or the ones that do, get stomped by the modern boys who mix and cross train a certain and select number of arts.

Something does NOT sit well with me in regaurds to that.

I keep asking the same questions, because I’m hoping someone will respond to me with an answer that gets to the heart of the issue, and NOT bring un verifiable street fighting into this, and NOT accuse me of being a Troll because I want to sight provable grounds.

If our systems work, Why haven’t we seen them doing so in theses comps? Why have we in fact seen just the opposite occure?

Site examples of Kung Fu trained fighters, of ANY Chinese style, that have done well in these MMA competitions (Besides Mike Patterson’s fighters, I know about him already).

32

Fair Enough Royal Dragon

As you said…Why?

Well I can’t answer why the people I personally feel could adequately represent CMA aren’t fighting.

What I can say is that Your Tons and Tons of evidence does not have any Well Known High Level Sifus to my knowledge. None nada zip, if so then who? You tell us, who?

Why they don’t fight? Perhaps you’re correct, mabe cowardess, mabe ego, I don’t know.

But to say that, the Professional MMA fighters who are the best at what they do…are fighting the best of CMA is INCORRECT.

Come on now, lets compare apples to apples. Not Grapefruits to a grape.

What I do know is, there are definately CMA out here who Any MMA in the world would NOT attempt stand up on. Immediately they would attempt to diffuse them by taking them down. That says allot

“Brilliant general”! “When the dirty bastard finds out, he’ll return with his men–then we kill the all of them…” www.kwoon.tv

33

Top level Shaolin??

I havn’t seen any top level Shaolin guys at these matches, and just cuz someone says they are, doesn’t make it true.

34

What does eevryone thing of this?

I cut and pasted it from another board.

""Many Kung Fu systems ARE flowwery and useless however. This is because the Chinese government has deliberatly watered down the art and turned it into a performing art. If you want to see real Kung Fu, most are still maintaning low profiles. If you understood the relation ship between China’s government and it’s people, you would understand why. Even when thier masters come here, they still have a lay low profile mentality, from a life time of avoiding governmental trouble, it becomes part of thier personality. Oh sure you have your Yang Jwing Mings, and Wing Lams, but for the most part all the other schools are only advertised localy. Much of the Chinese arts have a viale (?) of secracy. They don’t openly display thier sklills often and rarely compete. It’s something done “in the family” or competitions are locally held between schools. They have not really devulged into the international MMA scene yet.

Muy Tai Has nothing in it that’s NOT found in most Chinese styles. All that body hardening, that comes from Shaolin. I have seen thier Monks break ROCKS on all parts of thier bodys. And I know thier upper level students can do so also, because I have seen it. Kung Fu guys ARE ALSO hard as iron, just like Muy Tai guys.
The reason you very rarely see Kung Fu guys win to Muy Tai is because Muy Tai fighters very rarely fight outside of thier own circutes or in competitions that don’t favor them.“”

Reply]
The interesting part of this, is you DO see the Chinese fighting in national and internation level competitions. My guess, is theses are San Shou fighters trained in a modern enviroment.

We are seeing two different generations, The old reality based “survival of the fittest” generation, and the modern sport competitive generation. I think the older generation, is where the “old school” styles are found. Because of living an oppressive life style, they are probually shy of the limelight a UFC or Pride would bring them as a matter of instinct due to growing up under an oppresive comunist rule. It may be just a matter of time before the younger traditionalist who were not raised in that enviroment step up and compete in majior comps.

It’s a possibility anyway.

Comments anyone?

Royal Dragon

35

I think most "old school"practitioners and their students just don’t care about NHB comps I know I don’t. I also don’t like it when people go out of their way to try to convience me my art is ineffective because we don’t compete in NHB comps like on the kungfu board. If I do compete in a full contact event it would be San Shou or the Koushu federations Lei Tei anyways.

Witness the Dynasty!!!
New Site! www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net

36

This may be the reason I’m looking for. If most or all have the same mindset you do, then no, you won’t find many Kung Fu fighters in the modern NHB events. Although, I am curious as to why the Kou Shou’s and San Shou’s top fighter are’nt fighting in the NHB fights from time to time.

Maybe it’s for the same reason Chicago is so segrigated. I mean, we have Polish neighborhods, Italian etc. Why don’t the Italians move into a polish niehborhood and vic versa? We have two Asian nieghborhoods, one Chinese, and one Korean RIGHT NEXT TO ONE ANOTHER, and you very rarely see a Korean buying a house in the Chinese Neighborhood, and you also rarely see a Chinese family buying in the Korean nieghborhood, even though, they are right next to one another sharing the same geography.

Maybe it’s a nationalism thing? The MMA’s are generally of Mixed national origin (seen as foring devils?), where as the Kou Shou and San Shou are predominantly asian Chinese or thier american students?

Or am I just going off the deep end clutching straws for answers?

Shaolin Dynasty, do you have a reason for NOT fighting in the MMA’s? Or is this just a matter of “how things have always been done”?

How about the rest of you? Do you feel the same way as Shaolin Dynasty? If so, why?

Royal Dragon

[This message was edited by Royal Dragon on 07-10-01 at 09:56 AM.]

37

“This may be the reason I’m looking for. If most or all have the same mindset you do, then no, you won’t find many Kung Fu fighters in the modern NHB events. Although, I am curious as to why the Kou Shou’s and San Shou’s top fighter are’nt fighting in the NHB fights from time to time.”

Its prob the same reason that Pat Smith didnt continue with NHB. He was making more money in Kickboxing type events.

People find their nich and stay with it. Top competitors in a field like what they are doing. Why hasnt Tyson shown up at UFC?

Also they are top in thier fields because they trained specifically for it. NHB fighters train specifically for NHB. Mark Coleman changed his training from Ground and pound to improve his game in NHB. A top Kung Fu guy, or Boxer or Kickboxer would have to change their training to fight NHB. (Thats why they call it MMA)

38

I think NITCH is probually the main reason, it makes the most sense to me. If this is the case, then it is only a mater of time before some real talent gets out there and does well in the NHB comps.

Oh, by the way, TYSON does’nt fight NHB because they’d TEAR his canabalistic a$$ apart there!!! Either that, or the NHB MMA won’t let him fight because they are afraid of becomming his dinner!!!

RD

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Tyson would not do well in NHB unless he spent some serious time training. But the money is not there for him.

There is a guy out of Mass that fights NHB, He was Kung Fu, Royce beat him in an early UFC, but he still gets around to the other tournaments.

Your right, eventually someone will cross over, but as long as they have their nich thats where they will stay. But the NHB events are no longer about style but training.

40

Kung Fu vs NHB/UFC

I am a well trained Hung Gar practitioner of more than 20 years. I wouldn’t participate in NHB/UFC competitions for two primary reasons.

  1. From what I understand the rules are too limited. There are techniques that I would need and want to use that would probably be illegal.

  2. Many of the techniques that I would use could be very dangerous if not fatal. I have no desire to inflict such pain and mayhem on anyone.

Finally, please read the statement below!

Peace!!!

DWR

One who conquers others is strong, but one who conquers himself is mighty! Lao Tzu