Traditional Shaolin WINNING NHB????

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Shaolin Kung Fu
1

Hello,
I have been perusing some other boards of the MMA variety lately, and I have to tell you, the opinion of Kung Fu’s abilitys is VERY VERY low. It seem’s the consensus is that Kung Fu (regaurdless of style) is nothing more than some sort of martial based Yoga.

They can (and do) site instance after instace where kung Fu guys get slaughtered in NHB fights. They poke fun at the whole Eye poking/throat ripping thing and just about every thing else.

My question is this,
Can traditionally trainned Kung Fu fighters hold thier own against todays MMA fighters. If so, site examples of this occuring, I need examples that the MMA crowd would hve to admit to

Also, why do yu think we have NOT seen a much greater number of traditionally trained Kung Fu fighters even IN the ring let alone doing well?. Don’t give me Budhist religious philosiphy as reasons, many of Kung Fu’s systems were developed by ruthless undergroud societs and many family systems exist that surley would NOT fall under religious influance, right?

Lastly, when do you think, or what would it take before we DO see a larger number of traditional Kung Fu fighters doing well in the rings of NHB/MMA?

Royal Dragon

Ps, I’m posting here as apposed to the Kung Fu forum, because I am looking for serious disusion, not a bashing war from the MMA’s or responses from trolls.

2

The reason you do not see Kung Fu winning in NHB event is because it is a specific type of fighting. Also it is not NHB, there are rules that make it sutable for a peticular type of fighting. You might as well ask why a NHB fighter doesnt win in boxing. Its different rules and training.

Next, most of those people who trash other stlyes compared to NHB dont train for NHB. They are internet heros. The training required for NHB is tough, you have a small population that will train like that.

If you want to compare your style to another you must compare it on common ground. Lets look at street effectivness. Can your style be used in the street? Is it effective in the street? Is that what you are training for? Are you a sales person who makes a living on how you look, and cant afford to practice full contact for NHB but want training to defend yourself?..

Most style are effective and were developed on someones experience in fighting, will they all work in NHB, UFC… no, but will they work on the street?

3

BJJ and MMA exist for the purpose of competition. If there were no UFC/Pride/ValeTudo/whatever, who would have heard of any of these things? People that practice these styles were introduced to them through the medium of competition, and consequently join up with these styles with the intent to compete.

Chinese martial arts are a system of personal cultivation, not to say that this is not present in BJJ or MMA but I would guess that the majority of people who study CMA do so for this reason. The name “gongfu” itself is indicative of this. In my experience, this type of competition is not the end to which most CMA practitioners train (IMO).

Just remember, people fight in these competitions, not styles. Hypothetically speaking, if I want to become a competitive fighter, OK, I’ve seen every UFC and Pride, and all I’ve ever seen win in these competitions are grappling/MMA which I think is the coolest thing, I’m not going to join a gongfu school where I have to sit in horse stance, I’m going to join a BJJ gym…it’s kind of a self-perpetuating cycle.

Why do you have to make the MMA crowd “admit” to anything? I’m a gongfu practitioner, I’m happy with my style; after a few years of training, I still feel like I have a long way to go. I can’t imagine that, years down the line, when I’ve been training for ten+ years, I’m going to feel that I need to prove anything to anybody else by competing in a competition. Here’s a question: how would you convince a CMA practitioner that they should compete in these kind of events? What possible benefit or motivation would you offer this person as an incentive, if they are not already inclined to undertake this kind of training?

I have lots of respect for NHB/MMA, and I like to watch the competitions; I also like other competitive sports such as sumo or fencing but I don’t feel any strong urge to prove myself in any of these venues…

Anyway good luck keeping the trolls out of this one, so far this Shaolin forum has had a pretty level-headed crowd, hope it stays that way…

4

OK,
I see some points, BUT Chinese martial arts HAVE competitive events!! So don’t tell me no Chinese martial artist has a competitive drive!! There are examples of Kung Fu vs. Tai boxing, and I know LOT’s of Kung Fu schools compete. Why have we not seen the elite level Kung Fu fighters do well in the MMA events? If they are there at all?

remember, when I compare NHB fighters, I’m NOT talking the average joe looking to survive a mugging, I’m talking the elite level practitioners of the arts. When are we going to see the elite level Kung Fu players do well in the MMA comps? If we are to compare apples to apples, then we should not bring street into this. And IF we did, i’m going to have to say, that the guy winning in the ring is going to be the SAME guy winning on the street, especially since there, he’s NOT restricted to the rules of what ever tournament he’s in. That goes for Kung Fu as well as MMA.

5

"If we are to compare apples to apples, then we should not bring street into this. "

Then you cannot compare boxing to NHB, Melton Bowen, a heavy weight boxing champion, lost to Steve Jennum at UFC, does that mean that Boxing is no good because it lost to a NHB fighter.
What about MT, they have done poorly at NHB, Dan Severn abused a MT fighter. is MT crappy since it does not do well in NHB?

You might as well say that about anything except MMA because no one style wins in MMA. (The reason its called Mixed Martial Arts)

Its not the style that makes a difference, its the individual and the training. 

 A kung Fu guy could win in NHB but he would have to cross train for it, then is he still a kung fu guy?
6

Another thing holding CMA’s back from winning NHB competitions (in my opinion) is the fact that it’s not as widespread as most the other MA’s. Say you have 5000 guys with the basic long term goal to win a NHB competition. 500 attend a CMA school and the rest go elsewhere. Of those 500 how many will have the basic athleticism needed to compete? How many will stay injury free? How many will stay focused on their goal? Finally, how many will WIN and then go on to TEACH with a focus on NHB training? It makes sense to me that the styles that will produce NHB fighters are:

  1. Popular styles…better chance of lucking into a “natural” athlete.
  2. Styles that train SPECIFICALLY for NHB tournaments.
    I totally agree with what the others have said as well. Especially beiquan’s point about CMA’s being a “system of personal cultivation” (boy that’s well put! :wink: ) and not just about bashing others heads in all the time.

-Radhnoti

7

Radhnoti

Radhnoti,
If it’s just a matter of popul;arity, how come tae kwon Do does’nt dominate the UFC? it’s the most poular style in the world last I heard.

What does every one think of this statement,

“Knug Fu today is just watered down play, and WILL NEVER do well in NHB comps against the MMA’s because it has become a dead art used mostly as a work out system, they just don’t have the knowledge anymore”

Royal Dragon

8

Apples to Apples

Since we are on the subject of comparring apples to apples, should’nt we be comparing the rules of engagement, and NOT what discaplin the artist sudys?

I see it as a no rule vs rule situation. If both fighters are fighting in a total NO RULE situation, then we CAN compar the merits of a certain style vs another by pairing off 10 or more of each style and fighting them one on one. Then, take an average of wins and losses. This will give you a picture of a styles effectivenes. Now, if you take 100 fighters, and face them off, and ONE perticular style LOOSES 90% of the time one can conlude that the style with the loosing average is inferior to the one with the winning average.

Now, I know we can’t fight no rules and expect there not to be casualties, but I think the modern NHB figthts are as close as you can get. AND if a large number of Kung Fu fighters consitantly loose, or fail to even make the cut and fight to begin with, then one must conclude that it’s NOT a very effective method or group of methods. This is what is happening out there.

Now, I, as a Kung Fu (Tai Tzu Quan) practitioner, do NOT believe the MMA’s have a superior system, BUT they do seem to win on awfull lot, and Kung Fu fighters seem to loose if they make it through the paliminarys at all. I would “like” to belive the best of us have NOT stepped up to the plate yet.

Now, since Kung Fu is suposed to be the superior arts, why don’t they win in the MMA’s? Are we all being delusional with our expectations of our arts? Or is there something else? Certianly all the elements for sucsess are there. Is it that no one has put it all together yet? Or is thier something else going on, am I wrong in my assesment of the abilitys my art can give me?. If so, why persue it? I want to know what is going on out there. I want to make sure I am training in the best system.

I would LOVE to see a purely traditionally trained fighter fight in the UFC, PRIDE or some thing equally as big, and dominate. NO, I would like to see LOT’S of Kung Fu guys do that.

If any one knows of tournaments where Shaolin Kung Fu guys DID do good and even won in NHB evenst against the current holy grail of fighting (MMA), I would love to know the details of when, where and who the fights took place and what were the exact results. Then, I want to know HOW they trainned and IF it was truly traditonal, or if he mixed in modern methods.
What style or styles did he study, How many hours does he train, what are his training sceduals different or alike the norm. Did he do lot’s of forms, or free fighting. How about Chi Kung is that a factor in his sucsess?

My daughter is at the gym she is, because they win!! Consitantly, against the toughest competition in the country. Why do they win so much? because they have one of the BEST training systems in the country. Each Kung Fu style is actually a training system for fighting. I want mine to be one of the best. So, what makes a fighting system an elite fighting system. Can any style be an elite fighting system? Or are there certain styles that just suck, kind of like some gyms just suck because thier system sucks?

The readers want to know

RD

9

real lethalness

the best of the real masters of gung-fu are above going around proving ability in compitions around the would esp. vs slouting neandrathal boneheads.
hyperspace_5@hotmail.com

happy fourth!!! :cool:

come on,

10

Actually, I’d be interested in how many of the NHB competitors started out in TKD. No offense to TKD students, but a NHB competitor would PROBABLY have to move into MMA training to pick up the ground fighting, etc.

-Radhnoti

11

I think this is a troll but I give my opinon anyway

One problem is that people are lumping all CMA together. China is a big country it has hundreds of styles of martial arts. If we lumped together JMA we would say because Shotokan hasn’t done well then Judo Jujistu etc. wouldn’t do well. To my knowledge only San soo and Wing Chun guys have competed in MMA tournaments they hardly represent all of CMA. Another factor is conditioning, those tournaments are for professional fighters. The guys that came from “kungfu” styles are at best not in shape amatuers. Alot of people are pushing Cung Le to compete in MMA although he has experience in BJJ and wrestling most people still consider him a sport kungfu competetor I personal don’t really care to see him there. He fights great were he’s at and is doing alot for his sport. This arguement is getting old and stupid though, seriously would you tell a boxer he sucks because he wouldn’t do well in a MMA. No, because he is training for a different format. These are all different sports, even though they may have a similar theme they are still different. It’s like expecting a basketball player to be good at soccer because both sports have round balls.

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12

Traditionalists in NHB?

I have never been able to see any NHB style competitions, but from reading this board I consistently find two statements reoccurring:

  1. Traditionalists are constantly losing
  2. The number of traditionalists in these competitions amount to a few persons (5 maybe)

Also, people who have claimed kung fu have not fought the kung fu way.

Seems to me that if these statements are correct, the issue is hypothetical so far.

However, I do believe that the bulk of people in TMA are not putting the time in necessary to become professional fighters. This is a shame since the essence of the old styles risk being lost, but on the other hand it’s good not having masses of pro fighters roaming the streets…

13

Few and far between

It is not unplausible for a Kungfu fighter to win a UFC or NHB. IMO none of the real KF masters have shown up yet. There are few true kungfu masters alive today. Particularly in the U.S., Masters have had to cater to the american public by cutting corners on conditioning and training, to the point that its current students are weaker in all aspects in relation to former generations. MMA is just a new term for an old concept. Kungfu by its very nature and throughout history is a MMA, which is nothing more than learning from other fighting systems.

I personally have done well against MMA and grapplers. In part because they underestimate me givent their past experience with KF people and second I see it as a lifestyle not a hobby or sport, and I train like I should (not for competition, but to win). I cannot speak for all true practioners, But I have many reasons not to compete in NHB or UFC. The biggest reason, Not enough money to fight as much as they do and Braggin rights just doesn’t do it for me. As well I have far more important things to do.

Although I think it is possible for a KF practioner to win these events I will say this, they are severely handicaped. The rules to these
events do cater to wrestlers and grapplers and restrict arts such as KF styles to the point that punches and kicks are all they have left. This is in part due to the fact that KF was designed for survival not sport.

…The skilled commander

14

This Crap again

Old thoughts and rehash that shouldn’t need to be resaid…

…One problem w/ striking is there is NO way to Half A$$ it. I can’t stop my punch half way and say “you might as well tap”. Yes, a real punch not an adrenaline punch thrown w/ desperation.

Many of the tournament locks can be applied more slowly and thus you can afford to make em tap and look good. Fighting is ugly, no way around it.

*** Old timers know that ground work is nothing new**

Nothing that most old timers didn’t know already. In the 70’s my father was stressing me to bring your man down and take him out.

Personal Protection = Equalizer

People wonder why Kung Fu and similar arts can’t do well in UFC. Simple, they did not evolve that way. In the Hey days you had to respect that the other guy might always be carrying protection, IE Dagger. In old times EVERYBODY or most carried at least a knife or Letter opener.
That is why most Martial arts ARE THE WAY THEY ARE. The evolved stances, protocol, ranges and used Distance to keep a safe zone and strike with impunity if possible.

I’ll use my wrestling vs. someone who’s better at stand up than me. That’s a no brainer…always have. But you give me a dagger and I fight the meanest 500lb grappler in the world because I’ll gut him like a fish if he comes too close. 1st his extremities and tendons then the kill.

So what has been proven, some of the world is more enlightened by the last 5 or so years. So what, it doesn’t change is this:

Two guys meet to fight, either spontaneous or by challenge. If they don’t know anything about the other. There is some caution and testing. Not even MMA will immediately go to the ground.
Only a fool doesn’t assume the other guy isn’t packin’ something. I always assume that. I know too many fools who carry Box Cutters. Do you have any idea the damage those razors can do?

Basically it’s anybody’s day at any given time.

It’s civilization, Pride in a style did not tell our ancestors to not use an Equilizer vs their foes just so they can say they beat a much bigger guy w/ their bare hands.

So i’m a Kung Fu guy too, but I’ve haven’t had to make these Silly REALITY COMBAT ADJUSMENTS. I’ve been doing it naturally from the beginning.

BTW answer this, what do MMA/NHB guys look like when they have a weapon?

Answer: The same as everybody else.

For KF, being a martial “ARTIST” is not just about the fighting. It is culture, attitude, moral correctness and over all becoming a better person… But that is one reason why all of the NHB and MMA are beating standard Kung Fu practicioners. Because all they focus on is the PURE fighting aspect and not really anything else. Where as KF has so much more to learn.

In General and given this situation, it’s only natural that the MMA will win…for sure in the ring.

“O”

15

“Now, I know we can’t fight no rules and expect there not to be casualties, but I think the modern NHB figthts are as close as you can get.”

NHB events are set up for grapplers, even the people who do it know that. Go over to the UG forum and ask the same question.

You are not compareing apple to apples.

Also, as someone else pointed out its a small population that actually train at that level, you might as well say that after watching Tyson fight you can say that the average MA guy would not stand a chance. The majority of schools, in any style, do not train heavy contact or have people training to be in that kind of condition. Frank Shamrock said his greatest asset was his conditioning.

Stop trolling and try to learn.

16

First off, I AM NOT TROLLING. I am honestly interested in discussing this subject. If your opinion is that this is a troll, please leave the conversation.

Now, Back to the disscussion,
The idea that most Kung Fu schools are just not at professional levels is irrelevant. There are San Shou and Kou Shou competitions and many other full contact venues. There ARE professional level Kung Fu fighters out there. I want to know why they never seem to do well, or even compete in the modern MMA/NHB events. Is it that Kung Fu sux in this enviroment? Is it that the interst has not been there for the Kung Fu pro level guys to compete in those cometitions? What’s the deal?

Kung Fu was suposed to be designed to function in a NHB life or death situation, right? if that’s so, then it should, in theory, do really well in the modern fight scene. It’s common sense. So, why are’n they dominating? Or at least holding a high level of respect?

Also, how does a limited rule NHB platform favor grappelers? Don’t give me the multiple fighter on the street thing, if you can fight many, one guy in the ring should be easy, since many like to throw this one out, and state that Kung Fu is a multiple attacker art, then they should STILL dominat in the ring because fighting one is easier than many no matter what the rules or lack of. If grappelers ARE somehow favored, how come you don’t see China’s grappeling arts doing well in these matches?

Again, if you want to persist in claimimng or accusing me of being a Troll, please leave the conversation.

17

"Ps, I’m posting here as apposed to the Kung Fu forum, because I am looking for serious disusion, not a bashing war from the MMA’s or responses from trolls. "

This was your last comment on your first post.

“Hello,
I have been perusing some other boards of the MMA variety lately, and I have to tell you, the opinion of Kung Fu’s abilitys is VERY VERY low. It seem’s the consensus is that Kung Fu (regaurdless of style) is nothing more than some sort of martial based Yoga.”

This was your opening statement.

You obviously have little knowledge of Kung Fu, let alone other arts. You are taking the opinion of people who do not do Kung Fu, dont have any knowledge of what the different styles emphsize, or that NHB is not NHB.

Years before I got into grappling I fought many Ju Jitsu guys and had no problem with them, because most Ju Jitsu schools like most MA schools do not train for NHB events, let alone train hard for street defense.

By your logic boxing is useless because it has not done well in NHB and MT has not done well. Actually by your logic all styles are crap because only MMA does well in NHB events and not one traditional style does.

You are makeing uneducated statements. You right up front put out that you are here to troll by your opening statement. Go to the UG forum and ask if they think NHB is reality.
Get an education on the arts before you make statements.

18

Hahahah

I actually think that Royal Dragon is a Sifu in the Emperors long fist style so he should know a little about CMA. RD why do you think CMA doesn’t fare well in NHB comps? Cung Le is a professional San Shou fighter ask him why he doesn’t compete in NHB.

Witness the Dynasty!!!
New Site! www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net

19

Hello,
basically, what I have done, is to peruse many boards, and I have noticed a DISTINCT disrespect for Chinese arts. From what I can see, very few traditional Chinese artist (Kung Fu for short) do well in theses types of competitions. From where I am sitting, no matter what the rules are in theses comps, the Chinese arts were designed to function in may enviroments due to the complex and ever changing nature of combat. This being said, why are they failing in theses competitions, and why do others have so little respect for them? As a Chinese martial arts pratitioner with very little else since my early days, it’s a bit disturbing to me.

I have lost fights before, but for the most part, no matter what background my opponents were, I at least held my own, including being attacked by 5 guys at once on the streets when I was younger.

Did I just fight loosers with no skill or something? Or is there something I’m not seeing keeping all the talent OUT of the MMA comps? If so, what is it?

“Cung Le is a professional San Shou fighter ask him why he doesn’t compete in NHB.”

How do I go about asking Cung Le why he has’nt fought NHB MMA comps yet? Is it money? Does he feel he can’t keep up? Is he just NOT interested because he’s getting what he needs where he’s at?

"By your logic boxing is useless because it has not done well in NHB and MT has not done well. Actually by your logic all styles are crap because only MMA does well in NHB events and not one traditional style does. "

First, I never said, that ANY styles are crap. BUT, I am looking at systems that are suposed to be FAMOUS for being well rounded and versitile, attributes that are suposed to be the “Bomb” in the MMa’s, yet they STILL don’t do well, OR are mysteriously UNDER represented. Take the Jouhn Marsh fight, The Kung Fu Guy sucked. I saw the video off the net, and he did’nt even have any rooting. I don’t know what his back ground was, but he was either NEVER very skilled, or so far past his prime he had no buisnes fighting at all. “I” would have done a better job and lasted longer against Marsh, and I am suffering from a back injury and am in NO WAY near my best shape at the moment.

Now, the MMA’s are NHB comps that are suposed to be the closest things to all out raw fighting we can have today, short of holding old fashion death matches. Now, because of limited rules and the nature of theses comps, they should NOT favor any one style, and thearfore the styles of fighting that are best equiped in all ranges SHOULD be dominating. Boxing is a sport, that is LIMITED in it’s approach, and would NOT fare well in situations where anything and every thing goes. Is it good to have boxing skills, YES it is, and I recomend boxing in anyones arsenall, but one of my instructors fought 14 viet cong hand to hand and wounded in vietnam, it was NOT boxing that saved his asss, it was Chinese martial arts. Now that being said, and with the knoledge of Kung Fu’s origin and well rounded training aproach, Why does’nt it get more respect in theses perticular circles?

20

Royal dragon

I read a Cung Le article where he said he doesn’t compete in NHB( his friend Frank Shamrock pushes him to try)because he is doing more for CMA where he is at. The point is NHB is sport most people in CMA aren’t in it for NHB sport. If you compete in NHB you are only helping NHB. Who really cares who has respect for what anyway? If people don’t believe CMA is effective I feel sorry for them but I am not going to waiste my time trying to convience them. They lose out not me. I find when you argue this point with people they just say “I don’t want to hear Blah blah blah”.

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