Victor:
Thought you might be interested in this thread at the UG. Joe Rogan and Eddie Bravo are maddogging Tony.
http://www.mma.tv/TUF/index.cfm?ac=ListMessages&PID=1&TID=556981&FID=1&p=473
It would be interesting to see Tony have a match up with one of these guys.
Without even reading the thread…(which I will do)…let me just tell you that over the last 6 years or so all sorts of people have come out of the wrestling woodworks and have taken shots at Tony Cecchine…
and it’s all B.S.
Starting…but not limited to…Matt Furey.
Did you know that Matt Furey went to Chicago about 7 years ago…kissed Tony’s butt - because he wanted to learn some Catch - and Tony taught him some stuff - the two of them did some seminars together (since Matt was already a fairly accomplished wrestler)…and when Tony wouldn’t endorse Matt’s money-making schemes…Furey left. (I’ve spoken to one of Tony’s best students, Brian DeNeve, who told me that he personally saw Tony submit guys inside of 30 seconds in those days that Furey couldn’t do anything with after 5 minutes - and he just got up and walked away).
Furey started bad mouthing Tony - moved to Florida - because he found out the reclusive Karl Gotch lived there…kissed Karl’s butt (Gotch was already about 75 years old)…learned from Gotch for one year…and then doublecrossed Gotch by putting out a 10 volume Catch video set that he charged over $600. for…(I bought it myself in 2002 - because it was advertised as Karl Gotch’s stuff)…
Was disowned by Gotch…then went and…unbeknownst to Gotch - sent in an alleged interview to a publication that was supposedly Gotch talking…wherein Gotch rips Tony Cecchine and praises Matt Furey (Gotch will tell you that he never even spoke to Cecchine or saw any of his tapes until LONG AFTER the bogus interview - which he swears to this day he never gave)…
And other people have done similar things. There’s a guy named Jake Shannon who learned from Tony - left - badmouths him now… (but uses his stuff)…recently wrote a book on the history of Catch wrestling (lots of lies, slander, and jealous innuendo)…and even tries to throw doubt over whether or not Tony’s Catch instructor, Stanley Radwan, was any good…tries to spread lies that Tony never learned from Radwan…
Even tried to spread rumors that Radwan never even knew any real Catch…and tries to say that even the greatest Catch wrestler of them all, Lou Thesz, wasn’t really that good…LOL…Thesz was 6 time world champion - and THESZ ONCE SUBMITTED KARL GOTCH IN A REAL SHOOT back in the 1960’s…
Tries to badmouth Thesz - who also gave some instruction to Tony Cecchine in the late 90’s (Lou past away in April, 2002)…badmouths him because Lou once said on his website (which still exists and I highly reccommend it to you - www.louthesz.com )- that there are only 4 living hookers in the world today (hooker being the highest accolade in Catch - like Grandmaster in kung fu…and also meaning that a hooker is a true master at hooking people (submissions)…those 4 being:
And people like Shannon and Furey and whoever else are also upset (jealous) because Thesz has also acknowledged on his website that he heard of Stanley Radwan back in the day…and heard that he was indeed a hooker.
It’s all about money, politics, and ego.
What else is new?
I have been reading the entire thread. It is huge and I’m not finished yet, but so far, I’m finding myself with a higher opinion of Catch (although I’m more comfortable with the term submission grappling) and a lower opinion of Tony.
If you get a chance, read the entire thread (you’ve got to weed through a lot of BS, skewed opiions, and people biased on one side or the other). If you can get past the flame throwing, there are quite a few interesting pieces of info in there.
Holy ****, what a thread! Hilarious and sad at the same time.
Makes some of the lineage flame wars on this forum look pretty average.
I missed Eddie Bravo’s visits and seminars here, he sounds like a pretty cool and funny guy.
My only contact with Tony C has been throuth the tapes Victor sent me. The footlock tape (Double Trouble) was good value IMHO.
Furey is hated by many.
Originally posted by anerlich
Makes some of the lineage flame wars on this forum look pretty average.
The lineage thing will always happen when you don’t compete.
I remember when Torrance Gracie discouraged competing. At the same time they were claiming they were the only 'pure water" of BJJ. Then their students got smoked in a match against the Machados. Didn’t hear much pure water nonsense after that.
Tony has had a back injury for years - and in early 2002, was in very serious condition for awhile in a hospital - seizures and partial paralysis…
Here’s some excerpts from Lou Thesz’s website talking about it…the last post - though it has Lou’s signature - was actually made by Lou’s wife…Thesz was himself very sick at the time - and past away just two months later.
bigcracker67
Member
Member # 1710
Crimson Mask I
Administrator
Member # 589
Best wishes to Tony C for a quick and full recovery.
He acted like a gentleman with respect to a certain issue surfacing on this board and I thank him for that.
So long from the Sunshine State!
grapplefan
Member
Member # 997
WHAT HAPPENED!!!
I hope he recovers…
GEEZ!!
What did he do this time?
Wrestlefan
Member
Member # 1469
silver warrior
Member
Member # 1361
J. R. Robins
Member
Member # 1714
Crimson Mask I
Administrator
Member # 589
Check your E-mail (not raising the issue in question on this board WAS what Tony behaved so well about).
silver warrior
Member
Member # 1361
Lou Thesz
Member
Member # 252
Hi,
We are trying to keep up with Tony’s condition, but there is little info. It seems the doctors are not sure what caused the seizures or paralysis. His Mom is very concerned,and Lou has spoken with Tony about a week ago.
…
SO ALL INNUENDO ABOUT TONY NOT COMPETING BEING DUE TO THE FACT that he’s cowardly or inept are nonsense.
The man has to take care of himself.
ALSO…JUST READ page two and three of the thread - the guy who’s talkin’ 5hit under the name, Jake Wrestler…is really Jake Shannon - the lying, jealous, a-hole I mentioned earlier.
AND…ON PAGE 6 of the thread - there is a long post by Glen Ortiz…more nonsense - of course Brian DeNeve knows whi//ers and sprawls - the guy is an excellent wrestler.
Ortiz and Shannon are both full of 5hit - and btw…I’ve confronted both of them on another forum run by a friend of theirs, Bill Cogswell, (who himself is another ex-Cecchine student who decided - like Furey - that is was time - after a few years - to cash ($) in… on what he learned from Tony…AND COGSWELL banned me, Victor, from his website forum after I started to expose people like Shannon and Ortiz as being liars.
Yes…it does get ugly.
When you’re the best - people hate you for it.
And that’s Tony Cecchine’s dilemma.
Thesz is dead.
Gotch is a recluse who only teaches a handful of people very quietly.
Billy Robinson is also hard to find.
And that only leaves Tony C.
And the rest of the wannebe’s are trying to pick him off.
BTW…Shonie Carter - who has fought many NHB events through the years - (and known as Mr. International) - has also spent time training under Tony.
LOL, That’s just as bad as the VTAA forum. And I thought we were bad.
PR
This post from page 11 of the thread says it all:
From: TheBigLebowski
Date: 02/15/05 09:27 PM
Member Since: 07/22/2004
38 Total Posts Ignore User
"I can’t believe Joe and Eddie are coming on here like this without actually speaking to Tony personally. Internet is wack. Anyone can IMP anyone. Want to get the info go see Tony and speak to him. Honestly, I only have his wristlock DVD and went to one seminar and I can’t see the man doing any of this. I went to one of his seminars once and when everyone was getting lunch Tony stubbed his Toe and screamed like a banshee while holding his back, his Snapple bottle he was holding flew out of his hands and the glass broke with snapple going every where. I was right behind him. Trust me the man’s back is SEVERELY injured. "
DO YOU SEE what’s going on here, Dale?
It’s common knowledge now that Tony Cecchine’s physical condition is not the best…and the vultures are starting to come around looking for an easy kill - because the cowards know that Tony’s in no shape to go after them and break a few bones.
And this guy Jake Shannon is at the top of the list.
Followed by the other two clowns who started the thread.
And what a sicko thread it is…having someone post some stuff - and then you turn around and accuse someone else of being the poster.
Hello,
While I am sure that this is very interesting to many people I am not sure it should be aired here on the Wing Chun Forum, imho. Without trying to offend anyone I am curious as to why this is not on the Other Related Topics Forum rather than here?
Seems to me that this could have been handled by a PM to Victor and posting on the other forum more in tune with the discussion as it does not seem to be Wing Chun related.
Peace,
Dave
Dave,
Sure the topic is about “Tony C.” and his credentials, but those same sort of questions apply to any martial art (what about “grandmaster” X’s credentials?).
FWIW, without taking sides in that discussion, I like the gist of Bravo’s point:
It’s very easy to know if someone is “real” in a sport. > > If you claim that you have a superior style and don’t compete actively > against top competition, then there’s a good chance that you’re not real, > especially if you’re claiming that you have “the” original, superior style. > > It’s like someone saying that they are great at basketball because they > learned some moves from the grand nephew of the guy who invented basketball. > > Kobe Bryant would laugh at that claim, why?, because if he was so good, he > would be competing. > > And yes, Joe and I did watch his tape series, and although there was some > stuff that has been proven effective, like leg locks and some neck > cranks,(the world didn’t need to see Tony doing them to know they work), > there was also alot of ridiculous moves that made us laugh hysterically. > > Yes, catch was around before BJJ, but kung fu was around before muay thai. > > Go forward, not backwards. Evolution is the answer. > > eddie> > >
Personally, I think there is a lot of wisom being dispensed by Eddie. Why does MT consistently destroy KF practitioners whenever they meet? It’s not that one method is superior to another, but that one training method is superior to the other. And that’s Bravo’s point about Tony C. and catch – lots of stuff “looks” great, but when you’ve actually fought, like Bravo, you see what’s real and what isn’t, and you know what sort of training works and what doesn’t. Training, by rolling “live” against skilled folks weeds out the BS.
Hello Terrance,
While I can agree that many of the points can be applied to Wing Chun, the fact of the matter is that this topic is specific to a single individual and his status in the wrestling world. While there are certainly valid points being brought up concerning the importance of serious training and the need for evolving I still think it is better represented on the Other Topics forum. Of course that is my opinion and may not mean anything. I just think that we have enough clutter on the Wing Chun Forum without adding something else. Better, IMO, to concentrate on Wing Chun and its developement.
Also I think that a lot depends on your focus in training. The MT guys are very dangerous and a part of that is certainly their conditioning. But lets look at what happens when they get older. How many “champions” are able to compete and prevail in their 30’s or over? In many cases they suffer damage to their knees and body in general as a result of the sometimes extreme conditioning they endure.
My focus is on having an art which is practical for the average man or women which can be utilized on the street. Of course, better conditioning is always a good thing. However it is not always practical for the average person to be able to devote the time and energy to reach a high level of physical conditoning. I want something that the not so perfect person can use and reasonable expect to walk away from a real street encounter. There are many factors to this, some physical and some mental. Proper training woud encompass all factors.
FWIW I have seen some very well conditioned fighters get their butt handed to them in a real fight. I have seen “champions” get beat on the street. I can honestly say that several people whom I have “won” against were not only in better shape but were more skillful than I. There are a lot of factors in a real fight not all of them equal. Of course I also CHEAT and I am proud of that fact. I teach my students to cheat also. 
But back to the subject at hand; I think that the info being discussed on this thread is interesting and can be enlightening. I just think we have enough to discuss specific to our art without adding something which could be just as well served on a forum devoted to such topics. Besides, by being placed on the Other Related Topics forum it is possible that this will get even more exposure to people who are interested in this.
Peace,
Dave
Okay…I see where this is going.
So back to the drawing-board, I guess.
Go back and read some of the posts on the thread by kansetsuwaza - for starters.
He’s the guy who is hostile to Tony C…but even more so to Matt Furey.
He studies down in Florida at the present time with Karl Gotch; he’s also the guy that said at least three times that I counted that
Furey is going to “pay” for double-crossing Karl Gotch.
Do you remember now which poster he is?
Well anyway - he plans to confront Furey at some future date and really teach him a lesson - WITH PAIN.
Now why is he also hostile to Tony Cecchine?
There are two reasons. First, simply because he has ambitions for himself - and putting Tony C down is a way of promoting himself…He also has competed and will continue to compete in NHB events in the future, if I’m not mistaken.
But reason number two is more subtle and complex…it has to do with the rivalry that existed for many years between Karl Gotch and Lou Thesz. (Remember, during the latter part of his life, Thesz taught Tony C some stuff and endorsed him as a true “hooker.”)
Both Thesz and Gotch were outstanding Catch submission wrestlers - and wrestled each other about 6-7 times back in the late 50’s and early-mid 60’s.
But Lou was the consummate professional - winning his first NWA heavyweight title back in 1936 - and was trained by three of the greatest Catch-as-catch-can submission wrestlers who ever lived…George Tragos, Ad Santell, and Ed “strangler” Lewis. (Ad Santell is also the guy who went to Japan for awhile in the early 1900’s and beat every judo and jiu jitsu fighter he faced - he never lost).
In his day, Ed lewis, for example, was as big a sports celebrity here in the United States as Babe Ruth was…(I mention this because the two of them were also friends and drinking buddies).
But I digress…Lou Thesz is widely considered to be the greatest Catch submission wrestler who ever lived - and only lost in the ring when he wanted to - because nobody could beat him.
Born in 1916 - his skills didn’t start to decline until the late 1960’s…so we’re talking about a 30 year run…1936 - 1966 (approximately).
And the only person who ever even came close to beating him was Karl Gotch.
In what was supposed to be a worked match…(the two of them always wrestled either to a draw or Thesz would win)…but one time - Gotch tried to double-cross Thesz…actually breaking two of Lou’s ribs during a move - and Thesz immediately put Gotch into a double-wristlock and made him howl in pain and submit.
IT’S THE ONLY TIME IN LOU’S CAREER that he ever used the double-wristlock to submit someone in a pro wrestling match !!! (The double wristlock was adopted by jiu jitsu and is known as the kimura).
And Lou Thesz made millions of dollars as a pro wrestler - not the case with Karl Gotch…so there was a professional jealousy there - about who would be top dog - about money-making - and about prestige.
Lou Thesz was also the first western Catch wrestler to go to Japan and teach/wrestle the Japanese professionally.
Pro wrestling in Japan was put on the map by Rikidozan - right after WW11 and into the fifties…and Antonio Inoki was one of Rikidozan’a first students - but it was Lou Thesz who first taught some quality Catch to Rikidozan - and then “put him over” in Japan by allowing Riki to beat him in a public match in front of 50,000 Japanese wrestling fans.
And then Karl Gotch went to Japan…and sometimes Thesz and Gotch would go there together - even tag-teamed against some of the Japanese wrestlers. (Thesz and Gotch had a strange relationship, to say the least).
But disgusted with the fact that, although he was a great wrestler, he couldn’t get much recognition and make much money in the U.S. (his personality was really nasty)…Karl Gotch eventually went to Japan and lived there for many years…took Inoki and others under his wing - and become “The God of Pro Wrestling” in Japan - as was mentioned on the thread.
And Japanese shootfighting can also trace it’s roots to him - and those he taught.
Pro wrestling and shootfighting…
and once again I’m going to say, and as was mentioned by kansetsuwaza a number of times on the thread…Sakuraba comes out of this tradition.
Yes…he’s been influenced by more than Catch - but nonetheless Catch wrestling is the biggest influence in his grappling game - and he has beaten 4 Gracies - he has never been submitted in a PRIDE or UFC fight - and hardly ever uses the guard position.
Karl Gotch, in his brusque manner, refers to the guard as the “whor _ hold.”
It is a fallback position - a weapon of last resort…not plan A…not plan B…perhaps a plan C or so…if you’re put down on your back.
The best plan is to get back up.
Lou thesz, in his autobiography “HOOKER” - talked about how his first great Catch instructor, George Tragos, would start EVERY SINGLE training session by putting Thesz in a bottom position of some sort - and make him work his way out from there.
Such is the importance in Catch wrestling of learning how to always fight (wrestle) your way out of a position wherein you’re being dominated and controlled by the man on top.
Enough said.
Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun Did you know that Matt Furey went to Chicago about 7 years ago…kissed Tony’s butt -
because he wanted to learn some Catch - and Tony taught him some stuff - the two of
them did some seminars together (since Matt was already a fairly accomplished
wrestler)…and when Tony wouldn’t endorse Matt’s money-making schemes…Furey left.
I’ve never regarded Furey very highly.
Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
(I’ve spoken to one of Tony’s best students, Brian DeNeve, who told me that he
personally saw Tony submit guys inside of 30 seconds in those days that Furey couldn’t
do anything with after 5 minutes - and he just got up and walked away).
I thought Tony had a bad back and couldn’t spar.
Victor:
Are you a representative for Tony’s catch system?
Who taught these guys catch, isnt catch wrestling english?
You cant even get people who still teach it here anymore
Bravo’s awesome. One of the best instructors I’ve come across. His method of teaching is super systematic and high retention.
However, he takes a lot of glaucoma medication and while it makes him incredibly funny (see Twister DVD or his Man Show writing) it probably also makes other bio-chemical alterations.
The rest of the discussion is pointless.
Originally posted by reneritchie
…he takes a lot of glaucoma medication
THAT was too funny!
Joe Rogan from Fear Factor?
Originally posted by Vio
Who taught these guys catch, isnt catch wrestling english?
You cant even get people who still teach it here anymore
Here you go:
http://www.catchwrestle.com/info.htm
PR
Dale:
When the back goes out - he shuts it down.
Until then - he just does his thing.
But the bottim line is - he can’t push the envelope too far. There’s no way he could chance going into a NHB event, for example.
And no…I’m not an area representative.
Just a student.
…
Vio said this:
“Who taught these guys catch, isnt catch wrestling english?
You cant even get people who still teach it here anymore.”
THERE ARE BASICALLY two traditions within Catch-as-catch-can wrestling - and Lancashire (England) is one of them. (Karl Gotch comes from that school)…The other comes from the midwest (Ohio, Illinois, etc.) - from the 1880’s…and starts with people like Martin (Farmer) Burns - and others.
Farmer Burns’ top student was Frank Gotch - the first official title holder of World Heavyweight Wrestling Championship within the NWA (National Wrestling Alliance).
Karl Gotch’s real name is Karl Istaz…he took the name Gotch in reverence for Frank Gotch. (Karl is a German-Hungarian who was born and raised in Belgium).
So today - you have Tony Cecchine teaching (he originally learned from Stanley Radwan)…and there is Karl Gotch…and Billy Robinson teaches in Japan at the present time.
Then there are one or two people who teach Catch - one being none other than Gene Lebell in California (though he mixes it with judo/jiu jitsu - and is close to being considered a true hooker - but not quite) - he learned his best Catch stuff right from Lou Thesz…and there is Billy Wicks - but I don’t think he’s still teaching.
The school in Wigan, England, to my knowledge - doesn’t exist anymore.
…
Rene and Dale:
You two guys seem to know who Eddie Bravo and Joe Rogan are.
I’ve never heard of either one of them until this thread.
What can you tell me about them?
Victor
Eddie B is a student of one of the machados and lives in California.
He is a BJJ blackbelt.
He beat royler Gracie with a triangle at ADCC but lost to Leo Viera who went on to win it.
He is known for being innovative and unorthodox - for example the rubber guard (high, tight climbing guard in which you grab your own foot) and the twister (a neck crank from a half back mount)
BTW my BJJ teacher has a herniated disk in his back. He can demonstrate techniques but he cant roll anymore - it might paralyse him.