I’m not going to say that Kazushi Sakuraba was not familiar with Japanese jiu jitsu - because he was. He fully understood the jiu jitsu use of guard, half guard, full mount, rear mount, etc.
But none of this negates the fact that he was a catch as catch can (cacc) wrestler, first and foremost.
In fact, the way the Gracie’s, for example, took from other systems like wrestling (including catch) and made it part of their BJJ game - without actually changing the main thrust of their BJJ game…
is an exact parallel to the way Sakuraba worked some jiu jitsu into his catch wrestling game - without actually changing the main thrust of his cacc.
And to those who might think that I’m just trying to make this into a catch vs. BJJ discussion, that’s simply not my intention.
I just want to bring people’s attention to what exactly Sakuraba was doing that made him such an enigma and nemesis to the BJJ world back in the late 1990’s/early 2000’s.
Yes, I am a cacc enthusiast, and I’ll state that upfront for the purposes of full disclosure.
But I’ve come to see that the BJJ bottom game (along with some other things that BJJ, and Japanese jiu jitsu/judo in general bring to the table) are important to know and be skilled in.
But here is Kazushi Sakuraba at his cacc best. Enjoy!
[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;966345]I’m not going to say that Kazushi Sakuraba was not familiar with Japanese jiu jitsu - because he was. He fully understood the jiu jitsu use of guard, half guard, full mount, rear mount, etc.
But none of this negates the fact that he was a catch as catch can (cacc) wrestler, first and foremost.
In fact, the way the Gracie’s, for example, took from other systems like wrestling (including catch) and made it part of their BJJ game - without actually changing the main thrust of their BJJ game…
is an exact parallel to the way Sakuraba worked some jiu jitsu into his catch wrestling game - without actually changing the main thrust of his cacc.
And to those who might think that I’m just trying to make this into a catch vs. BJJ discussion, that’s simply not my intention.
I just want to bring people’s attention to what exactly Sakuraba was doing that made him such an enigma and nemesis to the BJJ world back in the late 1990’s/early 2000’s.
Yes, I am a cacc enthusiast, and I’ll state that upfront for the purposes of full disclosure.
But I’ve come to see that the BJJ bottom game (along with some other things that BJJ, and Japanese jiu jitsu/judo in general bring to the table) are important to know and be skilled in.
But here is Kazushi Sakuraba at his cacc best. Enjoy!
And to those who might think that I’m just trying to make this into a catch vs. BJJ discussion, that’s simply not my intention.
I just want to bring people’s attention to what exactly Sakuraba was doing that made him such an enigma and nemesis to the BJJ world back in the late 1990’s/early 2000’s.
QUOTE]
So without making this a BJJ against catch thread what in your opinion was he doing that made him such an enigma…? Do you think it was down to him as a fighter or his catch training?
the BJJ guys didn’t have a problem with other catch trained fighters, they went through the likes of takada, Anjoh, Funaki, nakai, Imamura, Fujii etc so what was it about him that made him so special?
Sakurba trained to defeat the Gracies, he studied their weaknesses and defeated them.
He never gave them anything, he hardly ever made any mistakes, was never “still enough” to get caught, was strong and had the stamina of a marathon runner.
in short, he was a great athlete with great strategy.
He understood the “know your enemy” view, he learned BJJ to learn how to exploit it and he did it very well.
A lesson there for all those that don’t “like” grappling.
The steroid issue aside, Josh Barnett is another guy who has become a catch wrestler (he learned from both Billy Robinson and Erik Paulson) - and has had a lot of success against BJJ and other grappling systems through the years.
So I don’t think that Sakuraba’s very high level athletic abilities are the only reason for his successes - since he’s not alone as testimony to cacc itself.
As to what specifically about the style that presents problems to other systems?
I believe it’s a combination of various rides and escapes that others may not be used to seeing, along with certain subs (and sub setups) that they’re not used to seeing - and last but far from least, it’s the dynamic unpredictability of the whole “catch any hold you can” strategy that messes people up. They are expecting to see a much more formula-like positional game than what catch usually brings to the table.
And when you throw in some of the wrestling takedowns and some of the cacc leglocks/shinlocks/toeholds that sometimes seem to come out of nowhere, yeah, the style can be a problem.
It should be obvious but often isn’t, to be a “catch wrestler” you have to be a WRESTLER first…
Sak was a very good wrestler. He had excellent foundation in the basics of wrestling. Most of the other “stiff style” guys in Japan are pro wrestlers, they learned to do stiff style pro wrestling, that doesn’t necessarily mean their basic wrestling skills were up to snuff…
Sak also did some pro wrestling before his PRIDE days, didn’t he? I’m sure of it.
And in fact, now that I think about it, his background in wrestling began with his training with Takada to be a pro wrestler.
Now Takada was once a training partner of Yoshiaki Fugiwara - Karl Gotch’s top student. And Gotch was one of THE best cacc wrestlers of the 20th century. A pro wrestler who could really finish guys with submissions - also known as “hookers”.
So there’s a connection from Gotch to Sakuraba right from the beginning.
And then later on, Sakuraba spent time learning from Billy Robinson - also a high level cacc wrestler.
In fact, both Karl Gotch and Billy Robinson learned catch (at the same time) in Wigan, England under the legendary Billy Riley back in the early/mid 1950’s (it was known as Lancashire catch).
Got this from a jiu jitsu instructor’s website some years ago: the only two matches that Maeda ever lost were to catch wrestlers while wrestling as a pro in Europe (under the name Count Koma) - and then he spent some time learning some stuff from these guys BEFORE settling in Brazil in 1916.
Interesting, huh?
And then there was Ad Santel (one of Lou Thesz’s instructors) who went over to Japan and did real well in matches at the Kodokan (also back in the early 1900’s).
[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;966684]Got this from a jiu jitsu instructor’s website some years ago: the only two matches that Maeda ever lost were to catch wrestlers while wrestling as a pro in Europe (under the name Count Koma) - and then he spent some time learning some stuff from these guys BEFORE settling in Brazil in 1916.
Interesting, huh?
And then there was Ad Santel (one of Lou Thesz’s instructors) who went over to Japan and did real well in matches at the Kodokan (also back in the early 1900’s).[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;966714]before he ever did “pro wrestling”, Sak was a free style wrestler out of the same program most of Japan’s olympic wrestling team comes from[/QUOTE]
That’s my point Sak trained with Takada et al but he faught better than them so where did he get his skills from? Takada and his guys were by and large owned on the ground, by BJJ guys. Takada got destroyed twice by Rickson as did a lot of the Japanese guys who claim a catch background.
None of them made the catch skills that Victor talks about work nearly as well as Sak did (Barnett is good on the ground but not in the same league), but even if you include him with Sak that’s what, 2 guys claiming a CACC background at the elite level? Where are the rest? If only 1 or 2 people can been seen to making it work then surely its more down to the individuals than the style
Everyone who fought him got destroyed by Rickson! He is God!
It is always down to the individual. Some folks are still young at this Frost and think it is a style thing. They will learn!
Jake
[QUOTE=Three Harmonies;966843]Everyone who fought him got destroyed by Rickson! He is God!
It is always down to the individual. Some folks are still young at this Frost and think it is a style thing. They will learn!
Jake[/QUOTE]
I know of a few people who have humbled Rickson.. Allot of things went on that are not taped, or privileged to public view. I know of one young kid (at the time he was a kid) who from what i have been told by two people who were training at the time , made him look real bad. No names will be given but you would be surprised. Nobody is perfect.. not even Rickson..
[QUOTE=monji112000;966848]I know of a few people who have humbled Rickson.. Allot of things went on that are not taped, or privileged to public view. I know of one young kid (at the time he was a kid) who from what i have been told by two people who were training at the time , made him look real bad. No names will be given but you would be surprised. Nobody is perfect.. not even Rickson..[/QUOTE]
I’m sorry and no offence meant but without names and places I’m calling bull on this one, every black belt, pro fighter I know and who has been with him has said the same thing, he is unreal and taps them at will, I tend to believe black belts and pro fighters over unsubstantiated stories, there are simply too many fighters and non Gracie black belts saying how good he is, if someone had truly beaten him and made him look bad, everyone would be talking about it
I am with Frost on this one. I am sure their have been several people who beat the hell out of Ali, but no one talks about it, no one taped it etc. etc. :rolleyes::rolleyes:
Give me a break. IF some “kid” schooled Rickson, that “kid” would have made the rest of his life with that one win!!
And I am sorry, but if it is not in the ring it is not “official”!
[QUOTE=monji112000;966848]I know of a few people who have humbled Rickson.. Allot of things went on that are not taped, or privileged to public view. I know of one young kid (at the time he was a kid) who from what i have been told by two people who were training at the time , made him look real bad. No names will be given but you would be surprised. Nobody is perfect.. not even Rickson..[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I will need more than heresay on this especially since anyone that has even lasted 5 min with him TELLS EVERYONE !!
If someone had “humbled” him EVERYONE would know about it.
Fact is, Rickson is a freak, he is just on another level and I don’t even LIKE the guy !
