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Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Mixed Martial Arts
1

I was looking for something specific, and found this:

Ultimatewingchun
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Brooklyn, New York
Posts: 4,841

Remember this date: June 1, 2006…

Within the next 5 years (or less) it will be a GIVEN within the grappling world (and the MMA world) that catch as catch can is not only a DIFFERENT approach to grappling than BJJ - but also an EXTREMELY formidable one.

Victor Parlati

“An ounce of gold is worth a ton of dust.”

By my calculations, you got about 6 months left…I’m betting on fail.

:slight_smile:

2

[QUOTE=Merryprankster;1069134]I was looking for something specific, and found this:

By my calculations, you got about 6 months left…I’m betting on fail.

:-)[/QUOTE]

LMAO you should have put some money on the bet :o)

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[QUOTE=Frost;1069147]LMAO you should have put some money on the bet :o)[/QUOTE]

sorry i didnt read the whole thread but:

you guys dont think catch wrestling is as good as bjj??? in general… i mean, they are different and both have alot to offer IMO…

merry prankster, i pretty much agree with everything you have said that i have read, but im not following you on this one… care to expand??? you too frost… personally, i like catch wresting… sure its not complete, but then neither is bjj… as a grappler in general, i feel both have alot to offer… freestyle and greco too… they have helped me alot…

4

syn7,

The context of the thread was that UWC was claiming first that catch wrestling as a style is still truly existent (It’s not, really, IMO), and that it was “superior” to BJJ.

My point was that the folks he was pointing to as successful “catch” people were, in fact really great wrestlers in folk, free or greco, with submission thrown in. Sakuraba trained “catch,” sure, but he was also a national Japanese wrestling champ, as I recall.

I advocate and believe that it’s all the same ****. Grappling is grappling. I’ve competed in various formats, and the rules make the style make the fight. Add pinning as a way to lose, and the guard and the knee and elbow escape would disappear from BJJ, etc. There’s a reason that wrestlers do well in BJJ, AND vice versa (lots of young BJJers do very well in high school wrestling). It’s because the principles are all the same and they are more alike than different. It’s just that the rules aren’t the same.

He didn’t like that response, which resulted in his statement that catch will be big five years from the date of the post. Which it’s not.

That’s all.

5

[QUOTE=Merryprankster;1069886]syn7,

The context of the thread was that UWC was claiming first that catch wrestling as a style is still truly existent (It’s not, really, IMO), and that it was “superior” to BJJ.

My point was that the folks he was pointing to as successful “catch” people were, in fact really great wrestlers in folk, free or greco, with submission thrown in. Sakuraba trained “catch,” sure, but he was also a national Japanese wrestling champ, as I recall.

I advocate and believe that it’s all the same ****. Grappling is grappling. I’ve competed in various formats, and the rules make the style make the fight. Add pinning as a way to lose, and the guard and the knee and elbow escape would disappear from BJJ, etc. There’s a reason that wrestlers do well in BJJ, AND vice versa (lots of young BJJers do very well in high school wrestling). It’s because the principles are all the same and they are more alike than different. It’s just that the rules aren’t the same.

He didn’t like that response, which resulted in his statement that catch will be big five years from the date of the post. Which it’s not.

That’s all.[/QUOTE]

what he said, victor made a number of comments about the superiority of catch over BJJ and how it was unique special etc, howBJJ was this or that (comments which showed he knows nothing really of BJJ) and this comment really put the icing on the cake

i believe like merry catch died out, and what is called catch now is nothing unique or special and that grappling is grappling

Of course merry being such a good grappler put it much better back then and now as i ever could have

6

oh ok… thanx…

i think no gi sub grappling prolly killed it off aye… what do you think??? coz thats such a general form of grappling that encompasses many grappling arts… catch and JJ alike…

i cant think of even one pure catch wrestler in mma… but i can think of tons of pure bjj in mma… not so much anymore, since being well rounded is alot more important now, but in the past you saw lots of unidimensional fighters… but never catch wrestlers, they were always something else too… i agree…

wheres the original thread???

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couldnt find the original thread, bumped one for you to show how he used to be, i couldnt find the est one though where he tried to tell merry and dale (a pupl and black belt respecitively) what BJJ was and was not, and sent them a video of how good catch starring tony C then went off on one when they said it wasnt that special

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syn7,

Lancashire wrestling is probably the grand-daddy of catch, folk, freestyle and greco-roman. At the very least it was certainly highly influential. The development of modern wrestling included traveling carnivals etc, featuring bouts where the outcome was often predetermined.

I would say that no-gi sub grappling didn’t kill catch as a style. Rather, the path of pro wrasslin vs amateur did. Amateur developed into no submissions. Pro developed into fake.

Catch was preserved, as it was, by a very small number of people, but it is so fringe as to be close to dead as an art. Think of it as a highly endangered species with only a few breeding pairs. I don’t want it to die, but it is largely irrelevant. UWC did not like that thought either.

My issue in the original thread was that there’s nothing unique or special about it. It’s wrestling with submissions. Expand that further and it’s grappling with submissions. And all grappling and all submissions follow the same principles. What does change are the rules of the game, which changes the preferences and techniques employed. The par terre position in BJJ is a horrible idea. The guard in wrestling is equally a terrible idea, etc.

Change the rules, change the stylistic preferences and emphases. But the principles don’t. And because of that, claiming superiority or uniqueness is dumb. You are either doing things that are sound grappling and submission, or you’re not.

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This is a very long interview with Erik Paulson - but well worth listening to. The man is an encyclopedia.

http://www.grapplearts.com/Blog/2010/12/erik-paulson-an-mma-master-coach-shares-his-secrets/?awt_l=E2sKV&awt_m=1dusnRidr088kq

Of interest to this thread is what he has to say about catch wrestling, and how he compares and contrasts it with BJJ.

Now, as to this thread itself…if you do your homework you will find that the FATHER of all of today’s amateur free style wrestling - is catch as catch can. Even Dan Gable has acknowledged that.

That said, look how WRESTLING does dominate in today’s mma world and reconsider my prediction in that light.

And what exactly is cacc wrestling? It’s free style with subs. All kinds of subs, which can be gone for during scrambles as well as after gaining a controlling (usually top dominant) position.

There are very few legit catch instuctors around, with Billy Robinson (Wigan, Lanchashire trained) being at the top of the list. (Both Kazushi Sakuraba and Josh Barnett have trained with him while Billy was living in Japan. He’s now about 75 years old - and is currently teaching out of a school in Little Rock, Arkansas).

BJJ blackbelt/mma fighter Roli Delgado goes there - and has nothing but great things to say about Billy, btw.

Now as for BJJ, sure, my thinking has mellowed a bit over the last 5 years. And as time goes on I think what the consensus is going to be is that the wrestling top game is the way to go - and the BJJ bottom game is ditto.

Not that each style doesn’t have something to contribute to their reverse “positions” - if you’ll pardon the pun.

But due to the lack of legit cacc instructors - it’s more likely that, like today, tommorrow’s wrestlers will be learning their subs and setups from BJJ.

We’ll see.

As a big catch enthusiast, and because I’m a huge fan and don’t want to see him take any more beatings - I can’t wait for Saku to retire…and teach wrestling/grappling fulltime.

Now as for Saku’s style - sure he’s a hybrid who is well schooled in jiu jitsu - but he’s a wrestler first and foremost. A catch wrestler more than he is anything else.

And belated Merry Christmas, Merry. :smiley:

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Translation it hasn’t happened and isn’t going to happen so ill cling to anything I can not to look wrong……………Come on that’s like claiming every victory for BJJ is a victory for judo since it was its daddy art, face facts catch went two ways, the carnival route and the no submission legit amateur route, one of those routes is respected and does well in MMA, the other is largely irrelevant

Sak was a high school judoka and wrestler first and foremost, its closer to the truth to say his coach Takada was mainly a catch guy….and he was a great MMA fighter wasn’t he

11

No, Sak was.

And Takada learned catch from Yoshiaki Fugiwara - KARL GOTCH’S top student.

Karl Gotch, who trained in Wigan at the same time that Billy Robinson did.

The same Karl Gotch who was perhaps second to only Lou Thesz as being the best cacc wrestler to some along in the last 80 years or so. (Thesz won his first title in 1936).

Make of my remarks what you will, I really don’t care.

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So sak isn’t a judo blackbelt and didn’t wrestle isn school?

Yes and Takada lost more fights than he won, and that’s my point you made CACC out to be this superior art and pointed to Barnett and Sak as its poster boys, but forgetting to mention guys like Takada and Anjoh who were catch and largely were useless in MMA

And claiming CACC to be the dominate force because guys wrestled in freestyle and it came from catch years ago is silly, BJJ came from judo do you see anyone claiming BJJ wins are wins for judo? no because the arts evolved and moved on and people accept this, much like freestyle moved on and left the carnie stuff behind

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Neither of those guys ever trained with Billy Robinson, the greatest still living cacc wrestler around. Sak and Barnett did. And besides, it’s also an individual thing. Did it ever occur to you that Takada would have been a scrub no matter what he learned?

I’ve watched his fights, and the guy has nothing.

14

Without disrespecting Thesz, how can you put him above Gotch? Thesz is famous for his PRO WRESTLING, Gotch actually competed in the Olympics.

Also, if you don’t realize that every single person doing MMA (sak included) has cross trained in BJJ, you have really missed the boat

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Thesz beat Gotch in a pro match that turned into a shoot. He submitted him with a double wristlock. The only pro match on record of Thesz actually finishing with that hold.

As for you second point, Dave, you obviously didn’t read my OP very thoroughly. Of course I repect BJJ.

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[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;1070745]Thesz beat Gotch in a pro match that turned into a shoot. He submitted him with a double wristlock. The only pro match on record of Thesz actually finishing with that hold.

[/QUOTE]

You know that (1) that was a fake pro wrestling match and (2) why it ended that way is very well known, ie that Thesz was injured and they had to end it quickly

surely as a big catch wrestling fan you know KFABE?

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Hang on you just listed Takada’s credentials, now you are saying they are worthless?

And didn’t it occur to you that (as many of us have been saying all long) Sak and Barnett could be great fighters what ever art they studied, them winning does not mean catch is great (seeing as Barnett’s main coach was also BJJ blackbelt and Sak is a judo and wrestler trained fighter

Unless of course what you are saying is that all victories are victories for catch and all loses are because the individual is rubbish?

Its pretty simple wouldn’t you agree, For CACC to prove itself superior it has to produce countless champions at various weights, just like BJJ has done, in both grappling and MMA, fighters who are predominantly CACC grapplers, not high school wrestlers who have also studied BJJ, wuldnt you agree that’s a fair test?

You also say there are only a few people teaching it legitimately, this was the same argument you used 5 years ago, don’t you think if the art was that superior people would have flocked to the few coaches who can teach it, learned it and in those 5 years spread the art much further than it has spread? The fact this has NOT happened speaks volumes as to its actual worth

Note I am not a BJJ nutrider (despite what you might think) I train and have competed no gi for years, but even there BJJ dominates, there is a reason for this and a reason that even here in the UK there are only a handful of catch clubs, most guys learned BJJ and use that no gi, they chose to do this rather than visit catch schools to learn, even when BJJ blackbelts were rarer than gold dust here in the UK, hell when BJJ purple belts couldn’t be found for love nor money, that again should tell you something

18

Um, UWC, Lancashire Wrestling IS catch as catch can. Devonshire involved the use of a jacket and wooden shoes and kicking. Cornish used a jacket. Irish used the collar and elbow grip as the starting position. Then you have backhold styles, etc.

But Lancashire was in substance and style referred to as “Catch as catch can,” because it did not begin with a starting hold and no particular holds were forbidden, so you “caught” the opponent as you could.

Any other standpoint is pure revisionism. I learned this in HS wrestling, and it’s pretty much available all over.

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If you’re saying that Lanchashire catch is the ONLY catch wrestling, that’s completely false. If you’re saying that Lanchasire catch - along with the catch that was developed in other places, such as the American midwest - constitutes the whole of catch…then you’ve got it.

There are dozens of great catch wrestlers from the late 1800’s/early 1900’S that trace their catch to places other than Lanchashire County, England.

Here’s just a few names of some of the best of them:

Martin (Farmer) Burns
Frank Gotch
John Pesek
Earl Caddock
Tom Jenkins
Ed (Strangler) Lewis
Lou Thesz
Ad Santell
George Tragos
Joe Stecher

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I won’t quibble. It’s not important enough. Suffice it to say that I think the role of lancashire wrestling in catch was a starring one.

As for the people you just mentioned - how many are dead, and how many are alive, and how many are training successful grapplers who compete in no-gi formats?