Crap or good? Serious trainer or a dumb punk ? Dangerous or a cry baby because Young showed upped and challenged him and he did not want to fight. I would not want to fight Young either by the way.
He looks very fast.
It’s hard to tell from what’s out there, but the way he throws his technique makes me wonder if he’s not just reinforced those neuromuscular pathways. He’s pulling everything. I wonder if he’s hit anyone for real.
He is very fast. Some of it looks like there is good power too. He does not believe in free sparring. Certain sparring drills I think he does. I forget why he scarped sparring from his teaching but I think he mentioned it tends to develop bad habits. As pulling can, I’d suggest.
It matters little to me a guy backs down. That’s life. Sometimes you know, I can’t take this guy. It’s not like he entered a competition. I forget the beef. He may have said things about the Inosanto school of taught and got Young a bit miffed. What ever else transpired, Tommy got out of it. Sign of an intelligent man. Tactically smart. Or call him a *****. Up to your beliefs and experiences.
If he truly dopes not believe in free fighting/sparring then that speaks volumes.
The very core, the essence of JKD IS free sparring/fighting.
I recall that on some documentary about JKD. The did a spot on Carruthers. I can not recall the docu. name. But I am positive it was essentially specific sparring drills being as close at it came to sparring.
[QUOTE=boxerbilly;1282028]I recall that on some documentary about JKD. The did a spot on Carruthers. I can not recall the docu. name. But I am positive it was essentially specific sparring drills being as close at it came to sparring.[/QUOTE]
Not sure how sparring drills being as close to free sparring is somehow better than actually sparring.
That is like suggesting that driving drills in a parking lots are just as good as driving in traffic to prepare drives to drive in traffic.
That is just silly.
Targets, real targets in H2H move.
This kind of demonstration has purpose in showing the textbook version of a technique.
But if you don’t move beyond that, it’s all useless because none of it will work at all in an actual scenario.
This is not the kind of thing you can trot out at a later date looking for acceptance as a valid means of combative development or training.
If it does not move up to realism and application in realistic scenarios and stays with the “may as well be a bob” type attacks, then it’s likely not as serviceable as it is promoted to be.
Speed is easy to get with technique when the target never moves.
[QUOTE=boxerbilly;1282028]I recall that on some documentary about JKD. The did a spot on Carruthers. I can not recall the docu. name. But I am positive it was essentially specific sparring drills being as close at it came to sparring.[/QUOTE]
The problem with sparring in lots of styles nowadays is that you’ll see some guy doing all sorts of traditional forms and stances but when it comes time to spar out comes the generic kickboxing. And who’s gonna win in such a fight? The best kick boxer of course. Of course I trained in Muay Thai which is essentially kickboxing but when I began practicing xingyi (which in my opinion has very superior footwork WHEN APPLIED CORRECTLY) we did nothing but prearranged drills which included the an shen pao two man form which is more free but still scripted in a sense. With lots of practice in the aforementioned pulling it out spontaneously isn’t a chore.
Also people tend to fight just like they spar. Very seldom in real life have I seen two people “square off” which is how sparring begins. People are cowards and they’ll try to hit you with a surprise blitz when you are distracted or aren’t paying attention (the sucker punch). I’ve seen it too much. I know of two guys who were black belts and each had lots of sparring experience and success in tourneys who respectively got stomped by some dudes who were not nearly as skilled. The fights started as I described and they had like a “holy ****, this ain’t how it’s supposed to start” mentality at least at a subliminal level and in one guys case it caused a brief shutdown that gave his opponent all the time he needed.
My two of my teachers (Taekkyon and xingyi) trained that you should be able to respond to an attack whether it be squared off of hands down at your sides. One time in HS I had a couple of guys pin me against the locker and start wailing on me. I tried to get away by rolling against the lockers but they just followed me and I ended up getting the brunt of the attack (multiple opponents aren’t cool).
Twenty five years later when I was in South Korea I was in Seoul for the first time on a brief holiday. I had met up with a Croatian dude and he told me about a happening club somewhere along the way. We walked around until we found it as we were walking in the door some freaking HUGE (about 6’3") US service man came out the door and immediately threw a punch at my head. I ducked but caught a little of the forearm on the brow which cut me. He dove into me and pushed me against the wall. I rolled out along the wall as I had done years earlier in HS and I think I pushed my foot against the wall and got him in a bear hug. when he started to pull back I hooked his leg which threw us against the door and we both fell through the door and back into the bar. We had some considerable momentum going and when the dude hit the floor he cracked his head pretty hard. I looked up an saw about half a dozen US servicemen with the WTF?? look on their faces. I shot up and bolted out the door like a bat outta hell and to my good fortune there was a nice pink Taxi cab with a vacant light passing right by. I jumped in and wildly pointed to the driver in the opposite direction. He did a donut just as all those dudes were piling out of the bar after me. Now I didn’t know this dude, I had never seen him or had any idea what his problem was, nor did I stick around to sort things out.
No amount of sparring in the dojang could have prepared me for that. But as I later reflected on the incident lots of previous ones like the one I mentioned came to mind.
There is only kick, punch, throw and lock.
Expecting to see action movie stuff in a fight is..well, that’s the viewers problem.
In any tcma there is basic kick, punch, throws and locks and that’s what is used in a situation.
Fancy stances etc have no real place in anything outside of stylistic dueling.
There is no such thing as “generic” kickboxing". Kickboxing with throws an locks is what Traditional chinese martial art is.
If someone is trying to sell you on only the fancy stuff like tornado kicks is “the realz” then they are pulling your leg or talking sh!t.
Not that those things aren’t used. Because they are. There are multiple examples of UFC guys even pulling obscure moves out of the the toolbag. They do lend to the surprise factor.
The main point is that if you don’t move beyond smacking a bag or demonstrating on a dude who just stands there, then you aren’t likely to be developing the ability to actually apply the martial arts in the self.
I have no issues (nor any reason to have any) with Tommy Carruthers, but here are a few personal observations.
It’s fairly easy for someone with some natural athletic ability to demonstrate impressive-looking speed combinations when the ‘opponent’ is just standing there. Even supposing a real opponent just stood there; the way the combination is demo’d wouldn’t work that way. Making real contact changes everything. The opponent’s body reacting to that contact changes everything, such as changes in body position, what opens up/becomes closed off, etc. It affects the sheer speed of your strikes, too. And that’s if the opponent were to just stand there and allow you to strike him.
In truth, nobody just stands there in awe. Not if you’re forced into a position to have to fight them. Doing only sparring drills but not real sparring will never teach you what you can make work, and how/when something works. No matter how close to ‘real’ the drills are. Sparring drills should lead up to sparring, not replace it. Sparring may not be the only important aspect, but it’s essential to learn to deal with others who aren’t cooperating with you and trying to get you, too.
The Hung Gar master I mentioned in the Vic Moore/Bruce Lee thread had the fastest kicks I’ve seen or faced, including “Superfoot” Wallace’s, though the HG master didn’t deliver his kicks in the same manner. When he kicked people in sparring, he was still lightning fast and explosive, but only from floor into the target. His snap-back was not as fast as when kicking air. Because the energy was spent going into the target. Same idea. If Carruthers was actually making penetrating contact with those punches, it would change the nature of his punching speed.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1282031]Not sure how sparring drills being as close to free sparring is somehow better than actually sparring.
That is like suggesting that driving drills in a parking lots are just as good as driving in traffic to prepare drives to drive in traffic.
That is just silly.[/QUOTE]
I could not answer that. I really don’t know why he feels that way and it is coming second hand from a memory that could be off a bit with the accuracy but I’m really sure he said that.
My buddy I mentioned in a PM to you. In London, Lt. Col. Grossman gave a seminar ( he wrote " On Killing" ) flat out told him sportive combative practice is needed because it is as close to real H2H as we can get. Looking at it from a point of preparing one to be able to handle the stress of a similar situation.
Grossmans book was ( and still is ) an eye opening book for its time. Most of his research has been plastered all over the web in rewritten form that reading it now could be redundant.
I looked briefly and could not find the clip on youtube. It may have never been on youtube. I did find this and perhaps this is the sort of stuff he mentioned? Just a guess. I don’t have time to search in depth for it at present. Sorry.
[QUOTE=
Twenty five years later when I was in South Korea I was in Seoul for the first time on a brief holiday. I had met up with a Croatian dude and he told me about a happening club somewhere along the way. We walked around until we found it as we were walking in the door some freaking HUGE (about 6’3") US service man came out the door and immediately threw a punch at my head. I ducked but caught a little of the forearm on the brow which cut me. He dove into me and pushed me against the wall. I rolled out along the wall as I had done years earlier in HS and I think I pushed my foot against the wall and got him in a bear hug. when he started to pull back I hooked his leg which threw us against the door and we both fell through the door and back into the bar. We had some considerable momentum going and when the dude hit the floor he cracked his head pretty hard. I looked up an saw about half a dozen US servicemen with the WTF?? look on their faces. I shot up and bolted out the door like a bat outta hell and to my good fortune there was a nice pink Taxi cab with a vacant light passing right by. I jumped in and wildly pointed to the driver in the opposite direction. He did a donut just as all those dudes were piling out of the bar after me. Now I didn’t know this dude, I had never seen him or had any idea what his problem was, nor did I stick around to sort things out.
.[/QUOTE]
Smart man.
Got home and searched for it a good amount. I can not find it but I did find this thread. I’m not reading through it but on the google search some one made a comment he does not spar. This stuff goes back to 2007. It may have been that long ago I saw the documentary? Anyway, for those that want to know more there may be some students of his posting in that thread.
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88191
[QUOTE=Brat;1282033]Very seldom in real life have I seen two people “square off” which is how sparring begins. People are cowards and they’ll try to hit you with a surprise blitz when you are distracted or aren’t paying attention (the sucker punch).[/QUOTE]
There’s no training that will enable you to defend a sucker punch. The best fighter in the world can get punched in the back of the head by anyone when his back is turned and he’s talking to someone else. The best chance of surviving a sucker punch is to have done enough real sparring, having been hit enough, that you can immediately recover and compose yourself after being rocked. Assuming the punch doesn’t knock you out…
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1282034]There is only kick, punch, throw and lock.
Expecting to see action movie stuff in a fight is..well, that’s the viewers problem.
In any tcma there is basic kick, punch, throws and locks and that’s what is used in a situation.
Fancy stances etc have no real place in anything outside of stylistic dueling.
There is no such thing as “generic” kickboxing". Kickboxing with throws an locks is what Traditional chinese martial art is.
If someone is trying to sell you on only the fancy stuff like tornado kicks is “the realz” then they are pulling your leg or talking sh!t.
Not that those things aren’t used. Because they are. There are multiple examples of UFC guys even pulling obscure moves out of the the toolbag. They do lend to the surprise factor.
The main point is that if you don’t move beyond smacking a bag or demonstrating on a dude who just stands there, then you aren’t likely to be developing the ability to actually apply the martial arts in the self.[/QUOTE]
I learned to fight in one of the toughest high schools I’ve ever seen years before I took a single martial arts class so I know what will work and what wont. In my school there was no question of “Who is the toughest guy?” It was about your place on the social/political scale and who you ran afoul of. Lots of guys who were the “big shots” regularly got rolled by an ambush which put them into traction for a few weeks. In their absence some other dude would take over. Then maybe he’d ambush that guy once he recovered.
One of the biggest problems with sparring and tourneys is that you get to prepare for them and you know they are coming. Real brawls happen when they happen and you’re not stretched out and might not be wearing clothes conducive to that sort of thing. You might be all stuffed up with a head cold who knows? When I said generic kickboxing I just meant the dancing and slapping that goes on in point fights. Trust me I’ve done 5 rounds of Muay Thai in an arena with lights and the freaky music. Real fights last 10-15 seconds.
The Muhammed Ali type of dancing around is ****ty footwork to prepare for a real fight. Most of the time it’s gonna be infighting and in that situation I’ll take a good solid stance to the Tae Bo any day of the week. If you’ve got the maneuverability and stamina to prance then you’ve probably equally got the chance to turn tail and get the hell out of there which is the smarter option.
[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1282074]There’s no training that will enable you to defend a sucker punch. The best fighter in the world can get punched in the back of the head by anyone when his back is turned and he’s talking to someone else. The best chance of surviving a sucker punch is to have done enough real sparring, having been hit enough, that you can immediately recover and compose yourself after being rocked. Assuming the punch doesn’t knock you out…[/QUOTE]
I’m sorry to disagree but sparring in my opinion wont really help you much in a real fight at least not to the extent that the common wisdom suggests. You learn fighting by fighting for real that’s the way it is. Theory is garbage. Most fights I’ve seen and been in have begun with a blitz of some sort. Two guys talking smack and then one finally gets too riled and piles into another. There’s not enough time to get into a kickboxing stance and all your kickboxing moves are worthless when you get shoved against a wall. A kickboxing ring or mat is free of debris. In the real world there’s **** laying all over the place - towels, book bags, trash and you can and will trip over them. And there’s people standing around who probably don’t have the reflexes to shoot out of the way should you make a hasty move. Remember the days on the schoolyard when one kid kneels behind you and you get shoved backward? Same principle.
The upside to this is that I’ve met few people who could actually throw a really good punch. Muay Thai boxers are notorious for this because they hold their guards too high and rely upon their elbows, knees, and kicks. Blindsides happen but I’ve seen them lots less than the face to face fights. More than one guy? Get the **** out of there! With a blindside sucker punch, usually those guys are the hardest hitters of all and no matter how much sparring and absorbing blows you’ve done it’s lights out. 90% of the martial arts I know I probably would never use in a real encounter and I haven’t.
If I see an opening (assuming I have time) I’ll go for it. Might be grappling might be a low shin kick or a foot stomp. But the techniques I’ve relied upon in the past in the real deal have been simple stuff. Nothing that’s gonna put me up there with Seven Segal or Jean Claude van Damme at the box office. Also I don’t want anyone to get the impression that I am marketing myself as some sort of bad ass. I have lost more fights than I have ever won if you can even win a real one. I have been in 3 fights in the past 25 years. One was the one I posted earlier, another was against some kitchen manager at a TGI Fridays who had a “Black Belt” in attitude and potty mouth fu and not much else. The third was against a mentally unstable kid in the seat of a school bus. Lots more back in the school days.
The last person anyone wants to fight, me included is someone who can and will do you harm. Going up against an equal is for the ring where you’ve got a soft mat and a referee.
I can only imagine what most who read your reports think. Actually I know what they think.
Brat, thanks for sharing your experience’s. This one gives gold!
Ill add that aside from inside tight bars. Ive never encountered much in the way of anything restricting foot movement, Chairs being the most common in my experience. Snow/ice can be a problem. Thankfully never had any trouble in snow. They are considerations but for me, seldom presented.
If someone does not go down after the first one to a couple of shots. Now you will be fighting. Prior, one assaults the other. This is how it really goes down. In your face. I know, everyone says, it wont happen to me. Yes it will. There are guy so gifted at talking themselves right into your concentration and personal space you never see it coming. Brats right about sucker punchers dropping people. They got a big punch and they understand how to get you with it before you do anything. Again, many will believe they will never get that close to me. I’ve seen different. Its happened to me. He is close enough to touch you and moves first, good luck. If he has sucked you into his world you don’t stand a chance at stopping it period. Best you got is as Kellen suggest. Learn to take a shot. Works better when you are younger. Works better if the guy punching does not have a knock out shot.
It would be much better if guys understood, knew and agreed this will be a fight. Then you can control the range you like the best if you are able. Like that San Soo clip. It was agreed on first.
Also, most guys glue to the floor. They move almost not at all. Plus almost everyone keeps their hands down. Cops are trained to write close to their chest or hold one or both hands in fornt of their chest while interviewing and assessing a suspect. Why? Most people head hunt. If his hands are chest high he stands a far greater chance or taking the shot on the arms. He does not have to move them as far. He can probably do it. Like Vic Moore could have to Lee if his hands were up. I think we all agree Moore was really fast. But he failed and had prior warning.
Frequently a guy will push, hands go back down and the hold ground again. It is an instinctual response and reconditioned by inside beliefs you will look a coward should you back up. Put you hands up and all that. We train one way only so long and we spend the rest of the day un-training what we try to achieve. Most of us do not walk around primed for a fight. It is for most people an unrealistic goal. We simply do not live that way. We go to work and be nice people. We hold doors and say hello. We allow people into our personal space all day long. At stores, banks, gyms. The thing we want to avoid in a confrontation we train ourselves to do single day to do. It is a unfortunate truth for the vast majority of us. We simply do not go around looking to have a fight or knock another out. Those guys that do probably just got out of jail for having done so a few months prior, if caught. Most guys don’t get caught. It almost never happens someone will intervene on your behalf. Even if they want to, things can go from looking normal to over in a flash. How many of us chased down the last guy that decked someone? I’d suggest few the post here or anyplace. It is not the normal response. At best they call the cops and ask for a ambulance.
Life can go bad fast. I choose not to live that way anymore. Primed. Ready for it. It will come to you if that’s what you want.
That begs the question. If we know that and anyone that has watch fights, normal not agreed on fights were guys match up on some dirt patch and hurt one another. But the kind you’ll likely find your self in. Guy in your face. Knowing what is probable. How do you respond? What do you do? How do you make your art fit that? I posted some vids of wing chun guys doing rather well and better in many case going up against karate guys and I suspect they could do as well against **** near anyone that stays on their feet. But they knew when the fight was starting. This is the least of our worries as it seldom will happen that way. There also is a good chance if you back down it ends before blows.
How do you make your art work before it turns into a fight if you are lucky enough to take a shot and get distance or grab and hold. Which may take it to the ground. Are you ready for that? Life sure can suck when you look at the probable instead of what you wish or believe will happen. The only time I ever made a kick work was when I kicked first. Front kicks. I once threw a round kick on a rather big guy and almost ended up on may ass doing so. I never threw another again.
Ive only ever blocked punches in things that managed to become fights with my face and body. I wont count stupid stuff. I mean guys really wanting to put me out. I’ll admit I suck at that. Are you prepared to be honest with yourself? In that one clip I posted of that Tai Chi guy that managed a really nice wrist or arm throw on a crowed train. If he did not make that move first he probably could have never pulled it off.
So, is that what we have? We have to move first? We have to become the thing we disdain? I suggest so. And then I suggest you turn and run away.
I suggest unless you are training to enter sanctioned fights, once you under stand the likely and the bad things you will probably have to do. I suggest you find other reasons to train. That being for slow learners like myself. Not you fellows more mentally mature than the rest of us. Find another reason. And stay out of the stupid places all this stuff normally happens. Keep your mouth shut . Something I really had to work on. It ain’t worth it.