Mr. Ching- If someone said they practiced Northern Shaolin and learned the Quan 1-10, what is that exactly? Quan means form, correct? SO why no names, are these generic forms? Or just the easy way to say they learned 10 Shaolin forms?
Hi
while i am not the most proficient or knowledgeable Bak Sil Lum stylist on these boards, I do have the knowledge that the system has what are known as the 10 core sets.
Each set has a name of course, but they also have corresponding numbers.
The sets are taught in an order that does not run in a linear fashion.
Generally they are taught in the order of
Lien Bo CHuan (Linked stepping fist), the Tan Tui (Springing Leg). Upon completion of these two preliminary sets one starts into the core sets. These are taught in the order of:
#6 - Tun Ta - The short strike
#7 - Moi Fah - The plum flower fist
#8 - Bot Bo - shuffle steps
#4 - Chum Sam - strike to the heart
#5 - Mo I - Martial art
These sets as explained to me are what are known as the 5 lower sets.
the next series to be taught after these 5 are:
#1 - Koy Moon - Open the Gate
#2 - Leng Low - The Leader
#3- Jou Mah - Horse sitting
#9 - Lien Wan -Continuation
#10 - Sik Fot - Skilled technique
There are quite a few weapons sets covering all varieties of weapons such as Long, bladed, double bladed, flexible, etc and dependent on the sifu teaching, there may be more or less weapons taught with the system.
It is also worthy of note that a student beginning the style will spend some time learning basics and possibly some other sets before learning the preliminary sets as described above. Sometimes it is the 18 hands, sometimes a Lohan set or sometimes it is a set made by the sifu to develop the student to be ready for undertaking study and practice of the main body of the system.
I have had the pleasure of learning a few sets from the style and am still practicing what I know from the style along with other work.
Hope this wasn’t to long winded and If I am in error, you other BSL’ers please correct me 
cheers
edit—Kung Lek beat me to the BSL punch.
1). Northen Shaolin is almost a generic name used to decribe systems using techniques from Cha Chuan (Cha-family style), Hua (flower) Chuan, China-style Chuan, Paochui (cannon) Chuan, Hong-family Chuan, Red-style Chuan, Shaolin Chuan, Fanzi (tumbling) Chuan, and Hua (Essence) Chuan. There are lots and lots of Northen Shaolin systems, and they may or may not contain elements of any number of these styles listed above.
FWIW, There is also Gan Fenchi’s Northen Shaolin system, normally called Bak Sil Lum, which is a specific style unto itself. Gene practices Bak Sil Lum, as do quite a few other people here. It is probably more authentically “Shaolin” than most other systems.
-
There are well over 200 forms recognized by Shaolin. Not everyone at Shaolin learns/teaches the same forms, so even someone who is trained at the Temple may have a completely different curriculum than someone else who trained under a different Sifu. So, their 10 standard forms may be different than someone else’s, even though they are both learning “Shaolin.”
-
It’s possible the Sifu just never learned the names, or doesn’t see a point in teaching the names. There are a few Western Sifus on the main board who refuse to use Chinese terminology for anything.
Don’t know if that helps any.
Thanks, MK and KL, that explained a lot. I looked up several differnet schools on the internet (Northern Shaolin), and you’re right, no 2 schools taught the exact same thing.
The guy I was talking to belonged to this school. Ever heard of it?
That’s a long-fist school.
Long Fist is a Northen Shaolin style, but not pure “Shaolin.”
To GeneChing
Bak Sil Lum or Northern Shaolin is a genreal term. It means northern Chinese martial atyles. There are many families or styles in northern Shoalin systems. Shaolin Chuan (Quan) is only another term for Chinese martial arts. It was not a style or system in the past. When people referred to northern Shaolin meant northern Chinese martial arts. On the other hand, when people referred to southern Chaolin, it meant southern Chinese martial arts. I don’t know how or when or why Shaolin become a style by itself today. Anyway…
Our style is Long Fist. We have ten empty hand forms from my grand teacher, including Tan Tui. The forms we pratice are different from the ones mentions before. Long Fist is only one family in Nothern Shaolin systems. We do practice Lien Bu Chuan, and Gong Li Chuan from Central National Martial art Institute. Although, both forms were not in our Long Fist system originally, they are now in our empty hand forms.
Re: To GeneChing
Hi fellows! long time not see.
Just my two cents on the subject. A year ago a student from our school who is currently living in Beijing has written to my teacher (Chan Kowk Wai, or if you like Chan Kwok Wai) saying that he found a school about 300 km away from Shaolin Temple where his teacher and pupils train a style called “Shaolin Ten Forms Boxing”.
When he checked the genealogy of this style, he found that:
- One of the students who learnt the style and are recogniced as members of the family was “guruzhang” ( Ku Yu Cheung).
- Almost all the forms have the same names.
- They have suffered years of pressure from ShongShan Shaolin Monastery authorities in order to compel them to “change the style” to suit the official Shaolin program of Shaolin Temple.
They refused. - They seem to have lost the Golden Bell technique.
Kindest Regards
horacio
bak sil lum or bei shaolin is usually the name reserved for the north shaolin style that was spread in the south.
bak sil lum itself is a cantonese term and discloses this fact as such.
I have also heard from people here and elsewhere that the style is also known as Bak sil lum pai and Bak sil lum men.
I don’t think the term Bak Sil Lum is a blanket term for all Northern Shaolin Kungfu styles. I think it is specific to the style that was made popular by Ku yu cheung and his followers.
cheers
“It was not a style or system in the past. When people referred to northern Shaolin meant northern Chinese martial arts.”
This view was promoted by the Zhongyang guoshuguan and had much to do with politics and ideology. Even during Guoshu’s heyday (the late 1920s and early 1930’s) there were other wushu societies that critisized Guoshuguan views on this.
We had a bit of a discussion on this in another thread.
http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23654
kai men,
Would you be so kind and tell us who the instructor is in this school that is 300 km from Shaolin temple? It sounds like from your description that he is not a direct lineage to KYC but perhaps from a parallel lineage.
You mention :
"When he checked the genealogy of this style, he found that:
- One of the students who learnt the style and are recogniced as members of the family was “guruzhang” ( Ku Yu Cheung)."
Am I correct to say that he read something in writing and was he able to secure a copy of the genealogy? This would be a real interest to me.
You also stated: ‘- Almost all the forms have the same names.’
Do you know which one(s) have changed and what are the ‘new’ names?
Lastly you stated:
‘They seem to have lost the Golden Bell technique.’
Can you tell us what else is lost?
Thanks…
Get your answer crazymaddrunk?
See you don’t have to ask me specifically when there are so many other authorities here.
As for the BSL comments, generally speaking I’d agree with Kung Lek - BSL has come to refer to a specific lineage in English, that of Ku Yu Cheong. But this is only in English, and it demonstrates the funkiness of CMA culture in the west. If you go to Shaolin Temple and say you practice bei shaolin, they might come back at you and say “this is bei shaolin.” To muddle the issue more, would this be a good time to bring up the opening of the new northern temple? 
muddle away, gene. eventually, we’ll fill the hole with mud, and the layers will settle out over time.
> This view was promoted by the Zhongyang guoshuguan and
> had much to do with the politics and ideology. Even during
> Guoshu’s hayday (the late 1920s and early 1930’s) there were
> other wushu societies that critisized Guoshuguan views on this.
No. It is not Guoshuguan’s view at all. That is Chinese.
Bak Sil Lum is simply cantonese way of saying “Northern Shaolin”. It may be used later in US as a lineage from “guruzhang” ( Ku Yu Cheung). That is because people here don’t know Chiense characters. You can say Bak Sil Lum is a specific lineage from GYC here, but if you talk to any Chinese what it means, you will get Northern Shaolin. Even then. Northern Shaolin is still a general term, it covers many styles or families. In Taiwan, I know there are Mei Hua(Plum Flower) and Liu He(Six harmony). Both are Northern Shaolin systems. If you ask what they pratice, they will answer you “Bei Shaolin”, which is northern Shaolin. Unless you ask very specific about their families or styles, that’s the answer you will get.
One more time:
Bak Sil Lum = Northerrn Shaolin system which includes any style related to Shaolin.
Bak Pai Sil Lum = Northern Shaolin Style where Pai means branch or family of the Northern Shaolin System. Specifically the style that KYC taught.
> Bak Pai Sil Lum = Northern Shaolin Style where Pai means
> branch or family of the Northern Shaolin System. Specifically the
> style that KYC taught.
I guess you really don’t know Chinese. You can name whatever you like.
While I can see where there would be no differentiation about the name perhaps in mainland china. But It seems that everytime I come across a reference to Bak Sil Lum or Bei Shaolin it is indeed the system of the KYC lineage.
I have also heard of other Northern Shaolin styles, but they don’t refer to themselves as Bak Sil Lum, they refer to themselves with style specific names.
I haven’t heard of any of the modern wushu being called this either. In north america and south america for sure the name refers to KYC lineage style Bak Sil Lum.
Interestingly enough, when the term Nan Sil Lum is used, it refers to all southern shaolin based styles and not to a specific style.
I don’t think it’s a matter of knowing or not knowing Chinese and more a matter of knowing and not knowing the kungfu itself. Nowadays, there are so many who have tasted some of a little of a few styles, myself included, that the naming, history and lineages are all over the map (in some cases).
If you are going to observe your history and lineage due to feeling it is integral to the body of knowledge you possess, then it’s probably best imho that your own is the best place to start, or at least to recognize where you got what from.
cheers
> I have also heard of other Northern Shaolin styles, but they
> don’t refer to themselves as Bak Sil Lum, they refer to
> themselves with style specific names.
That is becuse you are in this country.
Depends on who you talk to. If I talk to a normal people who know nothing about Chinese martial arts, I will say I practice Shaolin Chuan. If I talk to someone who know a little but not much, then I may say I practice Northern Shaolin. If I talk to some one who are in the Chinese martial arts society, then I’ll say I practice Long Fist. That is how we describe what we do.
> Interestingly enough, when the term Nan Sil Lum is used, it
> refers to all southern shaolin based styles and not to a specific
> style.
Same thing here. When someone who knows a little about Chinese martail arts asks me what is White Crane style, I will say it is a Southern Shaolin or Nan Shaolin in general. It is all depends on who you talk to. When you talk to a group of southern Shaolin people whith different styles, they would have to say their specific style like Tai-Zu, or White Crane, to differentiate themselves. When people refer to a specific style, they would assume you know the style they are talking about.
It may not be a matter of knowing Chinese only, but it has to do with the Chinese culture.
Hi Northernshaolin.
Unfortunately I have not anything except what I have told. I will have to write my older brother living in Beijing back in order to get more info. I will do and post whatever I will be able to get.
I hope I will be able to be more helpfull soon.
About the terms Beishaolin, Bak Siu Lam.. etc
As far as I know the style is known as Beishaolin Quan Men, or Bak Siu Lam Kuen Moon. Am I right?
kindest regards
horacio
You guys are all getting caught up in translation terminology
I thought we were way beyond that.
In the general English vernacular, BSL typically refers to KYC’s lineage. In the general Chinese vernacular, BSL is, well, more general. You can set down whatever rules or definations you like, but that’s the way it is.
Language is not determined by scholars unfortunately, it is determined by usage of the people. And the people are uneducated, and typically get it wrong. The biggest problem in CMA is the translation of broadsword for dao, which makes no sense at all in western sword terminology. But we’re stuck with it. You can try to correct it, say scimitar or something, but no one will know what your talking about - or worse, they’ll thhink you’re talking about something different. Same goes with BSL. KYC’s lineage was the first in the west since more early immigrants came from Canton/HK, so precedence wins.
Some thoughts about the use and misuse of the term northern Shaolin
My thoughts are this. In the case of Hung Chang Quan, Shaolin adopted two forms from
this system, but the system of Hung Chang Quan was not developed by Shaolin monks
nor was it taught in its entirety at Shaolin.
This goes for other forms such as Tan Tui. The form was taken from Cha Quan
by Shaolin monks. Shaolin Tan Tui was altered from the Cha Quan version with two
sections added.
It may well be, that a case can be made for Hung Chang Quan, Cha Quan, Hua Quan to
be grouped under a very broad umbrella category called Northern Shaolin, but in my
opinion this is a bit misleading. This is because it implies that these systems were
developed at Shaolin and yet none of these schools, to my knowledge, have made such
a claim. Their systems were not developed by Shaolin monks nor for that matter do
they count their generations from any Shaolin monk.
KYC’s lineage on the other hand claims that the primary source of its core forms is a
Shaolin Monk, this gives them more historical legitimacy for using the name Bei Shaolin
or more accurately Bei Pai Shaolin
In our case, although Xiao and Da Hung Chang Quan and
Hua Quan, as is 12 section Tan Tui, important sets in our tradition, we would
not say we teach Hung Chang Quan or Hua Quan or Cha Quan but Shaolin Wushu,
because we believe (rightly or wrongly) that the curriculum was substantially developed
at Shaolin.
r.