Howdy fans and keepers of the Shaolin tradition!
Does anybody know of any “ancient” footage (you know, b/w film footage from the old days) of Bak Sil Lum? I am always curious about the different ways practicioners execute the movements and their pacing…
Videos posted online would be preferred, though any references would be cool.
peace
herb ox
I find it difficult enough to find any footage on BSL. 
Suggestions?
BSL Flavours
I suppose what I am researching is the “expression” i.e. how the technique is performed. For example, some styles have a notably rhythmic expression, each technique executed in a nearly metronomic style, while others “blow through” the technique, one after another, with minimal pausing between. Some of the old masters perform with that characteristic “old man kungfu” style (max respect to the elders!) with rounded back and rhythmic stepping (like in xingyi)… I just wonder how Ku Yu Cheong (Gu Ruzhang) performed his BSL and Tan Tui?
respect
herb ox
Can you explain again what do you mean by saying:
‘…characteristic “old man kungfu” style (max respect to the elders!) with rounded back and rhythmic stepping (like in xingyi)…’
treading lightly…
Okay… realizing I could get myself into trouble here… it’s meant only as a descriptor…
I have an old video called “Precious Treasure” - basically a compilation of many rare styles performed by various practicioners and masters. The old men who perform often have a shorter step, shorter strikes and a slower pace. This is certainly not to put them down in any way! I realize that after decades of practice (their practice, that is… I’m just a student!), outward display of force does not necessarily indicate true internal power. The comparison was simply made to clarify my terminology of form “expression”. An elder master in BSL would probably perform his/her technique at a different pace and execution than, say, an 18 yr old practicioner. I guess I wonder what the appropriate expression would be for a 30yr old male of average Western physique!
I see some BSL practicioners express the style with a tight, snappy execution, while others have more of a wushu flair, while others move smoothly from one technique to another.
One might say the “traditional” forms practiced at Songshan Shaolin today have a definite expression - in comparison, since BSL traces it’s roots to Songshan, should BSL practicioners strive to express their forms with similar flair?
peace
herb ox
herb-ox
Understand where you are going. In regards to the different energies demonstrated when doing the form usually falls to the demonstrator. My research into my style of eagle claw has unearthed such differences.
Older styles have a different tempo then how styles are demonstrated today, even if from the same style.
Eagle Claw has its origins in Fan Tzi (bashanfan), chuojiao adn shaolin temple style. Todays main emphasis seems to focus on Modern Chang Chuan basics and ignores the styles past.
Since BSL is definitely linked to Shaolin and Cha Chuan you should look at these styles for reference. Its interesting due to the fact that Shaolin Chuan of the temple uses different basics and energy patterns then Cha Chuan so actually these forms should look different from each other even if they are taught under the BSL title.
eric
Originally posted by herb ox
[B] An elder master in BSL would probably perform his/her technique at a different pace and execution than, say, an 18 yr old practicioner. I guess I wonder what the appropriate expression would be for a 30yr old male of average Western physique!
I see some BSL practicioners express the style with a tight, snappy execution, while others have more of a wushu flair, while others move smoothly from one technique to another.
[/B]
herb-ox,
All expressions really should be the same, regardless of age or body type. There is a standard measurement that very few can perform in BSL. Between each level, beginner to intermidate, intermidate to advance, there are indicators and a standard level of measurement. What you observe are all correct but each one of these individuals were not of the same level.
You have to know what to look for when observing people performing their sets. Most of us just watch and take in the gross overall movements and judge one performance skill level on the overall impression and subjective observations. “The set looks nice, clean and sharp” or “He got a lot of power and a strong horse.”
Anyway let’s get to what you’re looking for. You want some standard to judge yourself because finding a high level standard BSL person is difficcult to locate.
I’ll explain this verbally to you the best way that I can but you really need to observe it yourself.
Let’s assume that all your basics and understanding of principles and concepts of BSL are at its fullest potential and lets get to the heart of what separates a sifu from a master of BSL.
Now what I’m saying are easy concepts to understand but it takes years to really apply them. Some people understand the concept(s) but can never achieve the level.
First, one must understand the key principle words of the style. For example, Tsai Li Fut words are, if I remember correctly: speed, power and technique. A master must clearly demonstrate these three elements when he performs his set.
For Tan T’ui, there are four principle key words:
Relaxation, Smoothness, Tenseness and Accuracy.
Seven Star Praying Mantis has 13 words but I’m not going to list them here.
So what are the principle keys word for BSL?
Speed, Accuracy and Technique.
Understanding what each of these words mean as it relates to the style will be a challenage and applying them correctly to the expression of the set will separate a sifu from a master.
Secondly, when performing sets in BSL, the set must demonstrate the principles of Yin and Yang which is the hardest to express. This again takes years to really apply and fully understand. The Yin and Yang principle should be express not only in going from one technique to another, but also in body movement.
When you observe these two above conditions as one performs a BSL set, then you know you just witnessed a very high level of BSL.
I’m sharing this info only because I want BSL to be performed at the higest level but in today’s world, what we consider a master in BSL is not the same as it was in the past.
herb oxBak sil lum - old footage?
Howdy fans and keepers of the Shaolin tradition!
Does anybody know of any “ancient” footage (you know, b/w film footage from the old days) of Bak Sil Lum? I am always curious about the different ways practicioners execute the movements and their pacing…
Videos posted online would be preferred, though any references would be cool.
peace
herb ox
Now I have some very old footage. My teacher and his classmates, My Sigung and his classmates (including Sifu Wing Lam) BUT these were entusted to me with the thought that they were/ are for me and my reference only… So I would not be inclined to pass these to the general public. I also have some footage of Sifu Louie, his teacher and classmates as well as Chan Kwok Wei and his students, oh and I have footage of Long Kai Ming (Son of Long Gi Chun) and his students from when we were in Kowloon in 2001. I am not posting this here as a sort of Na, nuh na na! But more to say that all of this stuff is precious treasures to be honored and protected. It is a shame actually that there is not more footage available to the general public about this wonderful style but really it is secret. One of the last true secret styles of martial art left. Well BSL and the Ninja styles practiced in the palace in Tokyo, haha! My student is currently studying Chinese in Taiwan and all of the local guys he practices with all say the same that they have never seen Ku Yu Cheong’s Northern Shaolin.
I have had a few masters visit me and we have watched footage together but my secret video archive shall remain. SECRET!
Peace
NS..good post, but I would disagree in your differenation between Sifu and Master…they are the same in most respects. However, one can be a Master without being a Sifu, but to be a Sifu…one must be a Master. Perhaps you were meaning to say different levels of mastership and abilities from one Sifu to the next or even the same Sifu through time.
GHD
Footage ?
Hi LukhopKuen,
You mention you possess footage of Sifu Louie.
Do you mean Bak Siulum Sifu Robert Louie or do you mean my late Sifu, Ronald Louie aka Kong Fey Sifu ?
Cheers
Buddhapalm
I think he means Sifu Robert Louie. Its a sweet tape. It has lots of Masters from the 60s and 70s on it! But really it is secret…So you all do not see my Post! You just think you do.
~Jason:D
Footage ?
Hi LukhopKuen,
You mention you possess footage of Sifu Louie.
Do you mean Bak Siulum Sifu Robert Louie or do you mean my late Sifu, Ronald Louie aka Kong Fey Sifu ?
Cheers
Buddhapalm
The former not the later. Shhhhh! It’s really secret.
Do you mean Bak Siulum Sifu Robert Louie or do you mean my late Sifu, Ronald Louie aka Kong Fey Sifu ?
Cheers
Buddhapalm
Hey Buddhapalm;
May I respectfully ask which line of BSL was your Sifu from?
Peace
Northern
Hi LukHopKuen,
Thats what I am trying to find out. It is definitely not the Bak Siulum of Ku Yu Cheung. Some off it is from Ma Kin Fung, who is the Grandmaster of Sifu Robert Louie, but the rest of the curriculum is of unknown source. I am thinking it is highly likely it is old Chin Woo curriculum of Canton Chin Woo where Sun Yu Fung taught or perhaps a collection of teachings from Northern and Southern wandering masters in Toisan. Mostly northern style with some southern flavor from the last few generations.
We have Mang Fu Ha Sahn, Erlang Quan, Wusong Breaks Manacles, Luk Hap Yin Yang Cudgel, Eight Gate Cudgel, Dey Saht Cudgel (aka Secret Shaolin Cudgel, in my line), Luk Hap Moy Far Spear, Dai Fut Jueng, Clear Wing Big Knife etc. I have Duan Da which we calll Gim Gong Kuen, but it has been altered tremendously after the middle. I think it may have been a recent alteration on this one, but it will take a little time to find out.
May I ask who you learned from Luihequan ? Are you from Yim Seurngs Mo’s line, Ma Kin Fungs, or others.
Cheers my friend/s
Buddhapalm
buddhapalm,
Just a clarification.
Lokhopkuen’s lineage is from KYC via YSW.
Sifu RL’s lineage is from both KYC via YSW and SYF via MKF.
GHD,
What you say is true that there are differences within sifu levels but in our CMA community (USA) we have hundreds of sifus (maybe closer to 1000) just in my area alone but many of them do not consider themselves Masters.
In our CMA community, which also includes the largest Chinese community in the USA as well, anyone can be a ‘sifu’ which means teacher or father, while the title ‘Master’ is really regarded as a much higher level. The ‘sifus’ in this area have too much respect for each other to call themselves a ‘Master’ and keep the titles at a humble level.
I guess our CMA community places a higher value in Masters because locally we have so many talented sifus in the area.
Thank you NSL! Yes we are from KYC, YSM, So Bin Yuen, Kenneth Hui line. Northern Shaolin is like my Big Uncle and Gene is my Cousin or maybe Uncle since I think he and my Teacher are the same generation. Interesting form selection Buddhapalm, looks northern to me. I love the Wu Song form. Don’t know it but I can recognize it right away on sight.
Wusong Breaks Chains
Thanks for the information Northern Shaolin.
LukHopKuen, you mention you can recognise the Wusong form. May I ask where you have seen it before ? I am trying to trace my version and it should be a big clue if I find someone else doing the same form. My Wusong Breaks is different from the current Taising Pek Kwa version in the magazine last year. Wushu has their version, but that is prettified beyond use.
Talk to you later.
Buddhapalm
Hi Buddhapalm
If I recall correctly you and I spoke about
this form. Did we ever determine whether
our versions was similar?
In our tradition it is said that an eminent Shaolin monk, the Venerable Shan Yun brought two sets into Shaolin - Wu Song Kao and Ji Shi Wu Song Dao. The sets were named after one of the 108 heroes.
r.(shaolin)
Wusong Kao
Hi Rik,
We never determined if they were the same.
I have something to send you for a month now. Could you e-mail me your address, since I lost it. This will help verify if its the same Wusong Kao. It will be interesting if its related.
Cheers
Buddhapalm