I’m new here and I just wanted to get some overall opinions. Just recently I have become fascinated with Kung Fu, almost everything about it. I have tried looking for certain styles but there are so many that provide different uses that I have a hard time choosing. I’ve narrowed it down to pretty much Northern Shaolin. Could anyone give me some insight on some of the various Northern Shaolin styles? I would appreciate it a lot.
Hi-
There are five main “families” of Northern Shaolin Kung Fu.
Cha and Hong are the most prevalent today.
(Hong being Sil Lum).
Bak Sil Lum or North Shaolin of Kuo Yuo Cheong is said to be most intact with its system maintained in entirety. it contains two preliminary sets and 10 core sets.
The system takes about 5 to 10 years to learn dependent upon the students adeptness and about another 5 or 10 years to gain mastery of.
Bak Sil Lum is the system I am most familiar with as it is the Northern system my Si fu is giving me.
It is quite difficult to perform even the 2 beginner core sets (Tun Ta and Moi Fa) but there is a lot of info that is good in the prelim sets which are Lien Bo Chuan and Tan Tui (10 row).
Lien Bo and Tan Tui introduce the practitioner/student to some of the concepts held further into the system.
The sets are performed fast and fluidly and contain many difficult moves. Tun Ta is the beginner core set and you are introduced to the Tornado kick in it (right off the hop!) this kick is an aerial 360 degree inside crescent kick.
It also contains front inside broom sweep followed by back broom sweep.
So, it is a fairly demanding system of Kung Fu when measured against other systems.
Many of the techniques in Bak Sil Lum are “disregarded” by other ma practitioners because of the level of difficulty but over time North Shaolin is really quite combat effective.
When one learns it along with a “shorthand” system, you can acquire quite the arsenal of fighting techniques.
There are of course other northern systems but I cannot speak to them as I do not practice them.
peace
Kung Lek
Wow, its great to hear another northern style practitioner talk about thier system and mention exactly the same sets and principles!
I also study Bak Sil Lum, also in the lineage of Kuo Yuo Cheong, the only difference between what Kung Lek posted and the version that I practice is out Tan Tui is 12 step.
He is right about it not being easy and taking a long time. The time frame he stated seems reasonable to me…im only at the beginning sets through Mei Hua, working on basics and focus in training..
Thanks for making my day Kung Lek!
IronPig
bei shaolin
Greetings
I am in agreement with Kung Lek & Iron Pig.
As with Iron Pig I also learned 12 step Tan Tui.
the rest is the same.
Our training sets go:
Ling Po
Small Circle fist
Lohan 1
Shaolin 6
Shaolin 7
The 10 Main sets increase Shaolin 1-10 add complex moves with each set. The sets themselves are not learned 1 - 10 but more like #6, #7, #5, #4, #2, #3, #10… I do not remember the exat order but #9 is learned last.
We combine this long arm style with Mantis training, both 7 star & Taiji Mantis to round out our training.
Long Fist
The ‘Northern Shaolin’ I learned isn’t really Shaolin, but schools of Long Fist. The Long Fist is from the Central Nanking institute. Yang Jwing Ming has a good book on the style. I learned from another guy from Taiwan. Not my major style though, haven’t practiced it in years.
I have also been exposed to Mei Hua or Plum Blossom style from my Shuai Chiao teacher. He described plum blossom as a ‘villiage art’ with an emphasis on blades and blunt weapons. Empty hand being a last resort.
Again, the long fist material I learned early on, and has not been my ‘major’ so take what I say with a grain of salt.
Cheers. 
I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.
If it ain’t 10 road, it ain’t worth it’s salt. 
j/k, my sifu started teaching my brother and I the 10 road, but he switched to the 12 road because it seemed more systematic and easier to teach larger groups. He recently said, “screw it”, and started us on the 10 road again (man the rust is pretty thick on my 10 road )
My school also does the same prelim sets as Shaolin Mantis:
Lohan 1
Lien bo (ling po)
Small circular fist
Then we start the core sets. The order I learned them in was:
6, 7, 8, 4, 5, 1 (he skipped a few of us ahead for personal reasons ), 9. I just finished 9 a few weeks ago, and I’m gonna start 2 or 3 next. I’m not sure which. He’s going to wait for a while before he teaches it, though. That’s cool, cause 1 and 9 are still kickin’ my butt.
I was curious when you guys started weapons in your schools. I learned some staff stuff (basic set, plus Fire and Water staff set) after lien bo, and after small circular fist I started the spear. I’m pretty slow when it comes to weapons, because I wanted the empty hand stuff first, so right now, I only know a few staff sets, a spear set, a heavy staff set (we do that with the Kwan Do, or Monk Spade) and a broadsword set. I’ve been doing this for about 6 years now, and there are a few guys (been there between 2-4 years) at the school that aren’t as far with the empty hand sets, but know pretty much the same weapons as I do (I don’t really complain about stuff like that, unless they have an ego about it 
).
Shaolin Mantis,
Bei Shaolin sounds familiar. Isn’t that where Sifu French teaches? We also incorporate 7* and Tai Chi Praying Mantis as a part of our cirriculum. the styles really blend well to enhance the fighting abilities. Of course there’s also Tai Chi/Chi Gung as well as a couple of other internal styles. So we’re not all riled up and aggressive all the time 
Jaguar Wong
www.superaction.com
here goes more information than most want
I was told that ten step Tan Tui is the muslim version of the set. The Shaolin Monks altered the set to add two additional lines and stramline the training regimen. For a good discussion on other Muslim styles try:
http://www.taklamakan.org/uighur-l/archive/6_5_1.html
Its a discussion about Muslims in China, they mention the martial styles as well.
Here are the sets taught in the school I go to:
Our beginning sets are:
Shr Ehr Lu Tan Twei - 12 Line Spring Leg
Lien Bu Chuan - Continuos Step Fist
the ten core sets are:
Duan Da Chuan - Short Hit Fist
Mei Hua Chuan - Plum Flower Fist
Ba Bu Chuan - Shuffle Step Fist
Shuan Shin Chuan - Pierce Heart Fist
Wu Yi Chuan - Martial Art Fist
Kai Menn Chuan - Open Gate Fist
Ling Chiu Chuan - Leading Fist
Dso Ma Chuan - Seated Horse Fist
Lien Miann - Continuity Fist
Shu Fa Chuan - Skill and Technique Fist
The four basic weapons, broad sword, staff, straight sword and spear are taught after a handset.
so starting with Lien Bu, you learn broadsword, then Duan Da Chuan, then staff, then mei hua chuan, then straight sword, then Ba Bu Chuan, then Spear
That gets you through the four basic weapons.
And that is the beginning of the curriculum within our school.
I guess that different schools teach the sets in different order.
Just a few pennies from a pig.
IronPig
Hi-
IronPig, most schools that teach the core sets of Bak Sil Lum will teach them in the order of
Lien Bo
Tan Tui
shaolin #6,7,8,4,5,1,2,3,9,10
some teachers will include a weapon set between the hand sets so as to not confuse the essence of the patterns for the student.
also, there may be a slight variation in the way the forms are taught in sequence due to individual reckoning.
usually though you learn the short sets first IE: 6,7,8, (tun da, moif, bot bo)then a little bit longer sets, 4 and 5 (chum sam, Mo I) and then the long sets 1,2 nad 3 and then the most difficult sets 9 and 10.
cantonese and mandarin names differ slightly and even some of the aspects of the forms and the spirit they are performed with differs from schoo to school, but I think that the overall essence exists in all forms of all schools of Bak Sil Lum.
Lien Bo is a seperate set that Master Kuo Yuo Cheong included in the curriculum and in fact gave this set to the chinese military as its basic martial training routine. The ,military of the pRC still to this day uses the Lien Bo set as given them by Master Kuo Yuo Cheong (by all indications of the material I have read on the matter).
Tan Tui is indeed a muslim originating set and was included with the system.
I am not familiar with 12 row and have only been taught 10 row by my Si Fu.
The 10 core sets are all Shaolin though through and through.
It really is a great system and the adept at this Shaolin Art is doing some real good Kung Fu.
Watching my Si Fu perform the North Shaolin stuff is real neat as he is a Master of the system after all and the form is exceptional as are the applications.
North Shaolin does include some of the more “unusual” techniques in application that is for sure.“steal a step” for instance as found in Moi Fa is a very interesting movement and difficult to get a handle on in application.
It is good to see you all that practice this system, I know from personal experience that to do North Shaolin is no small undertaking in the world of MA practice. Thos of you who have chosen to do so have chosen one of the more difficult systems to become good at.
Good Luck and Train Hard, I’m still learning and loving it!
peace
Kung Lek
Kung Lek
You mentioned five families of Northern Shaolin, but only mentioned two. Would it be to much to ask for the other three? What are the differences? Are they different styles of northern shaolin? Would these be the styles that are/were practiced by the monks(ex.shi yan ming, shi goulin, shi de yang or monks of the past)?
Please give as much info as possible. I apologize if you feel that I’m asking for to much.
Thanks in advance,
Buby
Hi buby-
the five main stems are Wa, Fa, Pao, Cha and Hong (Hung or Shaolin).
cha is also known as ZhaQuan and there are aspects of this system taught in and around Shaolin temple today.
I believe that the ZhaQuan or Cha system of north Shaolin contains “small red clan fist” and “large red clan fist” and a few ohter forms, not 100% certain of what they are but it is this style of north shaolin that has been modified into the contemporary Wu Shu routines we see today. So the “monks” at the temple study this long fist style along with modern wu shu and chi kung as well as buddhism from a strictly philosophical standpoint.
reason being that Buddhism is accepted as a philosophical study in communist china but not religious buddhism. communism as a philosophy does not tolerate religion to much.
The Hong (Hung or Shaolin) style of North Shaolin is the most complete of the five stems and still contains all the sets as they were originally with the addition of sets and weapons sets.
This means that the 10 core forms are as they evern were in essence.
The other three stems, Wa, Fa and Pao are said to have been diminished in content due to masters dying or being killed after the revolution and so on and not having disciples to pass on the knowledge.
These three are the hardest to find and are missing sets in the curriculum.
There may be teachers out there who know what they know of these systems and they may have grown them in their own schools and included material to make up for the missing sets.
I really am just a beginner in this art and do not have a whole lot of information about the other stems of North Shaolin.
So I cannot speak to them in a full way.
I’ve only been doing Bak Sil Lum for about 6 years
and I can’t say I know a lot about it either! ha ha.
But anyway, those are the other branches of north Shaolin and what little information I know of them.
peace
Kung Lek
Look before asking
5 Northern Systems
This has been covered before in the Cha kuen (Zha Quan) thread…look there all the answers you shall find and if there are more questions after then ask.
Regards
Shi Chan Long
Kung Lek - Thanks for your time and info, it’s truely appreciated.
Shaolin Master- Thanks for pointing me to the cha thread. If you don’t mind me asking, What are the differences between the 5 branches? Where all 5 branches taught in the shaolin temple at the same time or were they taught in different periods of shaolin?
Thanks,
-Buby
[This message was edited by Buby on 12-07-00 at 11:22 AM.]
Bei Shaolin
Jaguar Wong :
Are you with the Lohan School of shaolin?
“FuRenChu - was ShaolinMantis”
FuRenChu,
Why, yes…Yes I am 
Jaguar Wong
www.superaction.com
yes
i also practice the bei shaolin system of gu ru zhang, good to see so many other practitioners here…
as stated before, this is a very physically challenging style, but well worth learning. i am 6’4" and skinny, and i feel that for my body type this is an ideal style.
i learned the forms in the order lian bu, tan tui, 6, 7, 8, 1, 4, 5; i think this was because i could do the splits by the time i finished #8 and my sifu was teaching #1 to another student at the time. also, as far as weapons, we usually start with broadsword or pole (not 9 province though, our beginnign pole set is a mantis set called 5th son pole).
i have a couple question for the others here who practice this style:
-in our #5, right before the jumping side kick, we do (from cat stance) roundhouse kick, double palm strike, 360 sweep. i have seen other schools do this form with a front kick instead of roundhouse kick, just wondering how you guys do this sequence. actually we do a roundhouse kick elsewhere in the form too, towards the end; i haven’t seen this kick in any other of the forms.
-do any of you learn the names of the moves in the forms? i have seen, for example, in wing lam’s book on #7, he gives the names at the end; however, my sifu only knows the names of a few of the moves (i know my si-gung knows but i have never had a chance to ask him). maybe this is “secret” info or something…
-do you guys practice the 18 hands? we do them, however, i have seen the wing lam video where he teaches the 18 hands as a “form”; in our school they are just 18 different techniques which are not linked together.
looking forward to some discussion
beiquan
PS Jaguar - i think i’ve visited your school (sort of). i was in Vegas a few weeks ago with my sifu, si-gung, and some classmates (we were competing in a strange karate tournament in Primm) anyway, we stopped by a Lohan/northern shaolin/praying mantis school, because my sifu and sigung know the teacher there, but no one was home :(… can’t imagine there are too many other lohan schools in las vegas
[This message was edited by beiquan on 12-07-00 at 08:02 PM.]
Cha kuen is another famous northern shaolin style. I haven’t seen too many sifus in the States teaching it. Jason Tsou, Paul Eng, Wong Jack Man and Master Zhang know sets from the cha kuen style. They are different from the hong or shaolin style. I’ve learned #6 and #7 from the Hong or shaolin style. I’d have to say that the Cha Kuen forms that I have learned are more advanced and smoother.
BeiQuan:
Yes, we learn the names of movements in the forms. Like “kicking up dust” “suppress the earth”“monk carries the pole”“cannon mounted on a beam” and so on. It can be confusing to learn the names with the form.
We practice individual “hand techniques”, but I have never heard it called “18 hands”. Maybe I am not advanced enough in the system.
I have learned Tan Tui, Lien Bu, Darn Dao, Duan Da Chuan, king of nine provinces staff,Mei Hua chuan (with every set the original sets seem smaller)
I have not heard them numbered before like that.
My staff set is out of order for us, normally it is Sil Lum Gunn, or “shaolin staff”, which I have been told is fairly common to the style.
I have a web page with my notes on it, but I think it is fairly incomplete, as I am only a junior student. 
and I would like to get better information on it before making it available to the world.
I really appreciate the history lessons being posted lately in this and other forums. Especially the history of the forms from the Hung Ga practitioners and northern shaolin people.
Heh, I think I answered some of your questions.
Just some more pennies from a pig
IronPig
beishaolin
Jaguar Wong :
Ah I thought so. I was not sure if your Sifu was still teaching. Good that he is. Oh BTW that would make me your Sibak. Is your school going to Lomita-shaolin school this weekend? Just curious.
you can reply offline so not to bore everyone
ShaolinMantis-I
aka FuRenChu
ShaolinMantis-I
Some Hstorical info for all NSL
It is exciting to see so many people practicing Northern Shaolin. We are all cousins, brothers and uncles. I would like to share some info about our style that I have obtained over the past 35 years.
In 1902 in Chiang Su Province, Kuo Yu Chang was first introduced to Northern Shaolin by his father, Kuo Li Chih, and he started to learn 10 row tam tui. However, two years later, at the age of 14 years old, his father past away before KYC could finish. In his death bed, he told KYC to finish his school and then to seek out his classmate, Yim Chi Wen in Shantung province, and finish learning Northern Shaolin. KYC could not wait and left school two years later at the age of 16 and went to seek out Yim Chi Wen (nickname Great Spear Yim). For the next eleven years he and his cousin Pa Ching Hsiang learned from Great Spear Yim. KYC returned home only to find his mother passed away.
Originally KYC learned the 10 Northern Shaolin sets in its numerical order, one to ten. Before Kuo Yu Chang learned the 10 Northern Shaolin sets they were known by their names only and were not numbered. Many of the students got confused and so the sets were referred by numbers as they learned them. Hence the first set they learned in the series was number one because the name, Open Door, implies that the set is an introduction to the style and Northern Shaolin is about using various leg techniques. What better way to be introduced to the style than to learn all the kicking methods in the style. As all of you are aware there are 36 kicks in this set. Each set has a specific name because the essence of the set is demonstrating specific attacking techniques of the style. For example, in number four, Chest Attacks, the set teaches one how to attack the opponent’s center line. In number two , lead the way, it demonstrating how to attack your opponent by side stepping , angling your attacks and sliding into your opponent.
It was not until KYC started teaching in KwangTung in 1929 that he realized the his students were having a difficult time learning NSL. He then reorganized the sequence of teaching the sets and came up with the current sequence of 6,7,8,5,4 1,2,3,9 and then 10. KYC also added Lien Bo set (from Wu Chih Ch’ing) which was a standard set in the National Martial Arts Provincial schools and since KYC was one of the head Instructors, he added it to his curriculum. His top two disciples Lung Tzu Hsaing and Yim Shan Wu continued the sequence. YSW developed his own set, Sil Wah which is patterned after Ching Wu’s Kung Lic, and added to our current curriculum. Wong Jack learned from YSW and was the first to bring the NSL to North America. Because Wong Jack was affiliated with Ching Wu Association he replaced 10 row tam tui with Ching Wu standard 12 row. He also added to the curriculum some of Ching Wu’s sets such as NSL Lo Han, and other various weapons. Over a period of 36 years he has modified the sequence order to 6,7,8,5, 4, 3,2,1, 9,10.
The NSL sets are divided into two levels with 6,7,8,5,4 composing the lower level and 1,2,3,9,and 10 consisting the upper level. Over 50 years ago many NSL disciples regarded the upper level sets as their prized sets and always demonstrated them. Today we see NSL students demonstrate mostly the lower sets.
The 18 hands form is a set that is usually taught after the ten NSL sets are taught. Most NSL students were glad that they finished the 10 sets and felt no need to learn the 18 hands set since it was just a repeat of techniques from the 10 NSL sets. Most of YSW students regarded the 18 hand set as KYC’s favorite techniques and that he composed it to capture the essence of NSL. Many disciples believe this because there are no records or documentation on this set before KYC ‘s time. Personally, I feel if you are given a chance to learn it, do it because if what they believe is true then we, who are living today, would at least have an insight of what techniques KYC preferred.
Hope this will give everyone some reasonable historical background of why sets are taught in a certain sequence. I believe it all depends on when your sifu learned from who and during what time period. Almost everyone here in the North America can trace their heritage to two sources: Wong Jack (who taught Paul Eng, Kam Yuan, Wing Lam, who later went to YSW in HK to finish, and Peter Ralston) or Ma Ching Fung (whom has since has stopped teaching NSL and Lo Han for a long while). Most of Lung’s disciples are in Hong Kong with a few of them living in the USA.
As for the five northern stem styles, it is believed that they were all taught at the temple at the same time. Remember the 10 sets of NSL are composed of what are regarded as the best techniques from these five styles.
Hung style originally had six sets that were based on Tsung Tai Jo style. It was regarded as a fierce style that appeared hard and explosive in power in comparison to the other four styles.
Pao style originated in the yellow river valley and was very similar to Hung style. This style had 10 sets and only five sets were fully documented in manuals. And uses suppleness as its core and hardness as its application
Wah style originated in the Yellow River Valley in Hopei and Shantung provinces. It is characterized by its long strides, low stances, high kicks with well connected movements. The style had 12 hand sets which only 4 sets are documented and possibly only six hand sets exist today.
Hua style or Flower style consist of rapid altercations. The stances and strides are shorter than Wah and Ch’a but like Ch’a and Wah, it requires flexibility, agile and suppleness. The style was known to be close fighting techniques and originated in the Yellow River Valley. It also had 10 hand sets but only four survived because they are documented.
Ch’a style is the most popular in China today and is the most complete within China. The stances are not as low as Wah but are lower than Hung, Pao and Hua. Techniques are graceful, continuous and generates its power on the same principles as Wah style.
Since the 1700’s Ch’a Style has divided into three branches with each having 10 sets:
Chang Branch : Chang Shi is the founder of this branch and is known for being quick, fast, compact, agile and has a reputation as being good for defense after the Ching Dynasty, Chang Hsi Yen and Chang Chen Fang taught this branch in Honan Province.
Yang Branch: This branch is known for it’s upright stances, and graceful moves. For many years the branch was represented by Yang Hong Xiu who was born in 1864. Later he taught Wang Tzu Ping and Chen Chan Sheng who shared the style with Kuo Yu Chang. Yim Shan Wu taught the Ch’a style but in his later years stopped teaching the style save one set, number four. Sets number four and number six are the most popular because it is thought that these two sets contained the best fighting techniques.
Li Branch: This branch is known to be more powerful than the other two. It is known for its continuous and masculine techniques and is represented by Li Szu Chu who taught at the Ching Wu Associations in Shanghai and Kwangchow.
Hope this helps,
My friend kung Lek is misinformed
Ling Mo Fa QI has survived entirely intact. It is however slowly rising from obscurity. It takes a bit longer to achieve mastery then the previously mentioned system.
This system is Northern Shaolin Tiger system of the Ling family. The “Mo” in the name is representative of the Mohist (a retired military class) of which resided in the Honan provice since
before bodhi dharma showed up. This system predates the Black tiger system, and the two are not the same. Ling Mo Fa Qi encompasses external, internal and weapons and consists of form sets of shaolin chuan, chang chuan, and tai chi chuan exclussive to this particular system.